Why MPs have so lo AR ?

[crattey]

There's a big difference between being viable and being merely playable. MP is currently playable, but not as viable as the rest of its (pet profession's) group.

Think engis, being little more than static blocker dispensers and bacon wrap monkeys, take the cake in the 'sucky pet prof' contest.

Not even I am going to dispute the crat > MP > engi claim, though*


*mind you, we still need tripple-shooting-AS-pistols, though.

[crattey]

On topic, however, there's no such thing as support profs. There's a few standard roles which most MMORPGs stick too, and this applies to AO as well.

Healers
Tanks
DPS
Crowd control

Support is not a role. All of the above 'support' the team. Tanks support the team by drawing aggro. Healers support the team via heals. DPS suport the team effort by taking down mobs faster. CC supports the team by controlling and debuffing mobs. Every profession in AO can be fitted into one or two, sometimes even three, of above roles.

MPs, I'd say, currently fit the role of combining mediocre dps with some rather situational CC. Crats aren't much different in that aspect, bar the fact that we have more useful CC and ****loads more damage (in PvM crats are no doubt at the top of the food chain currently). Engis are dps. (Tradeskilling is somewhat different, as it essentially nerfs your abilities. It is, however, not in any way a team role).

The fact all three above classes also have powerful team buffs doesn't magically turn them into 'support' classes, who have no need for high damage, strong defenses or powerful CC. Every profession bar shades brings powerful buffs to the group. It's a perk, it's not a 'role'. I for one don't consider running passive auras in any way my 'role' in the group.

to..... buff?

And um.... debuff?

Its clear they arnt a DD prof tanking prof or a dps proff even though they can do all of those things to some extent (prety much every one can) so the only roll to left to fall into is support. Though that dosent automaticaly mean that they shouldnt be able to perk an enf who happens to have a notucomm equiped.

You make me sad.

[Vgman01]

You make me sad.

Well you can look at it that way if you want to but every one is just going to look at your crowd controll catagory and say " yea thats a support prof" Generaly you catagorise a class by what its best at doing. The best thing about mp's isnt their dps,tanking,or healing abilitys its their buffs and debuffs. Thats why people (I) love mp's. Yes any one can equip a beer bottle and start swinging it at a mob but that dosent mean they are contributing any sort of meaningfull dmg to the groups overall dmg. (nor dose it mean that they can stop swinging >.>)

[crattey]

On topic, however, there's no such thing as support profs. There's a few standard roles which most MMORPGs stick too, and this applies to AO as well.

Healers
Tanks
DPS
Crowd control

Support is not a role. All of the above 'support' the team. Tanks support the team by drawing aggro. Healers support the team via heals. DPS suport the team effort by taking down mobs faster. CC supports the team by controlling and debuffing mobs. Every profession in AO can be fitted into one or two, sometimes even three, of above roles.

MPs, I'd say, currently fit the role of combining mediocre dps with some rather situational CC. Crats aren't much different in that aspect, bar the fact that we have more useful CC and ****loads more damage (in PvM crats are no doubt at the top of the food chain currently). Engis are dps. (Tradeskilling is somewhat different, as it essentially nerfs your abilities. It is, however, not in any way a team role).

The fact all three above classes also have powerful team buffs doesn't magically turn them into 'support' classes, who have no need for high damage, strong defenses or powerful CC. Every profession bar shades brings powerful buffs to the group. It's a perk, it's not a 'role'. I for one don't consider running passive auras in any way my 'role' in the group.

Well you can look at it that way if you want to but every one is just going to look at your crowd controll catagory and say " yea thats a support prof" Generaly you catagorise a class by what its best at doing. The best thing about mp's isnt their dps,tanking,or healing abilitys its their buffs and debuffs. Thats why people (I) love mp's. Yes any one can equip a beer bottle and start swinging it at a mob but that dosent mean they are contributing any sort of meaningfull dmg to the groups overall dmg. (nor dose it mean that they can stop swinging >.>)

Still making me sad.

Your post is the equivalent of telling women they don't have to think, they just need to sit there and look pretty.

[Lordlawrence]

You probably meant "sit there, IN AN EMPTY ROOM, and look pretty".

[Josephina]

You probably meant "sit there, IN AN EMPTY ROOM, and look pretty".

/lft isn't empty. MPs in fact have a lot of company there and they even tend to stay longer than most others, so it is a very social profession.

[-Klod-]

Think engis, being little more than static blocker dispensers and bacon wrap monkeys, take the cake in the 'sucky pet prof' contest.

Hey, at least they got one clearly defined (pistol?) weapon option.

[Nesja]

MP is top DD, there aren't many prof that can do higher. Crat, engy and Shade come to mind, beyond that I don't think there is any prof that can do higher DD. Maybe advy and NT can equal MP damage.
Of course this eludes almost everyone in AO so MP's just stay on lft for an eternity.

Than with a lot of endgame content people want to team people that bring useful things to the team and in this area MP gets beaten by any prof. The only place MP will be preferred is in places where a NPC needs to be protected, like 'The Informant' and 'Alappaa', so a healpet can be put on a NPC. Besides these rare things MP loses out in usefulnes to any other prof.
Our CC is extremely limited to one mezz pet that isn't always reliable.
Our heals are virually nothing, over the years heals have become far more powerful and hp of all profs has gone up loads but the healpet stayed the same, it's pretty insignificant now.

The other pet profs: engies bring extremely powerful blinds and top dd, crats superior CC and top dd and very strong auras.

Atm I find it unclear what exactly the role of MP is in a team.

I still like my MP, but I have to say after having played sol and Shade to 220 now, if I hadn't started out with a MP I doubt I'd have ever made it to 220. Why? Because a soldier you go lft and 5 mins later you're in a team to do something for a few hours. As MP you're lft for hours and when you finally get a team it stays together for one thing and than everyone leaves. You also have a good chance you get invited to a tl5 team because tl7 teams won't have you. If you start a team yourself people have to leave because tey have other things to do or the team breaks after doing one thing. That stuff sucks. It doesn't matter that MP can od most profs because people don't know the dd MP can do.

Btw I think the 80% TS weapons and low req other weapon line weapons are great for MP. The staffs are fine DD and in pvp we'll never be killers with it but not all profs should be imo, we have great defense to make up for it. Though when we lose blockers obviously that will change. I think FC wants us to stay away from pvp.
Imo what lacks most is team usefulnes, auras, much better crowd control or heals. But maybe it's intended as well that MPs never make it into teams.

Don't be mistaken people, very few profs can od a MP.

[crattey]

Hey, at least they got one clearly defined (pistol?) weapon option.

MPs can slap on the new pistols, no? Still have better AS skill than engis or crats. Ofc, pewpewbow is prolly a better option, since you'll still lack the AR to perk most people, even if there's an 80% def check, and I doubt it's worth the stupendous IP sink that is pistol/mr/burst.

PvM wise, I have no idea what's up with MPs and their billion-and-one weird looking stickbatthingies. Pistols prolly rule there, too.. Not like the additional AR crats/engis have make a big difference, we all share the crappy post-1K-AR damage multiplier.

[Xtremtech]

The fact all three above classes also have powerful team buffs doesn't magically turn them into 'support' classes,

I'm not sure what the MP's "powerful team buff" is...

For me a support role is one that is strongly focussed on improving the ability of damage dealers to survive and kill, through means other than damage. In general, we tend to make that distinction, between damage dealers and support. Tanks could fit into that definition but that's really a separate role.

Team buffs that improve attack and defence are of course a major part of a support role, as is healing. But also debuffing the attack and defence stats of your opponent improves your team's ability to survive and kill. Crowd control is essentially a damage reduction tool and so also contributes in this way - with charming being a special case of crowd control that improves offence.

The reality is that the lines between direct offence and support roles in AO are rather blurry. Many theoretically primarily offensive professions in AO also have support tools. Classic examples are probably Advies and MAs with their clear healing prowess alongside offensive power. But also Soldiers with their reflect buffs and weapon OSBs etc. It's all too mixed up for support professions to have a stand out contribution.

If you look at a game like DDO, you'll find that the distinctions in roles are much more clear. There are classes/class combinations that are truly focussed on support and whose contribution really works as a true support role. Nearly all buffs and debuffs are given only to support classes with offence classes being almost entirely weapon/armour oriented. It's very difficult in DDO to create a character that is strong in offence and also has decent support role functionality. The trade-offs between one and the other are much harsher.

As a result of the confusion of offence and support tools in AO profession design templates, it's very difficult for those professions that perhaps should be delivering in a support role to be able to make a strong enough contribution to team survivability and killing power. The end result has been that over time, all suppport professions have been forced to try to be 'all-rounders' of some kind.... having to provide strong DPS as well as their suppport role tools... but balancing all-rounders is extremely difficult and it's not really practical to have so many professions be all-rounders. The way that AO PvP works also adds pressures to this.

It's a difficulty for AO that would be very difficult to fix, since the toolsets of so many professions are too deeply embedded I fear.

X

[crattey]

I'm not sure what the MP's "powerful team buff" is...

For me a support role is one that is strongly focussed on improving the ability of damage dealers to survive and kill, through means other than damage. In general, we tend to make that distinction, between damage dealers and support. Tanks could fit into that definition but that's really a separate role.

Team buffs that improve attack and defence are of course a major part of a support role, as is healing. But also debuffing the attack and defence stats of your opponent improves your team's ability to survive and kill. Crowd control is essentially a damage reduction tool and so also contributes in this way - with charming being a special case of crowd control that improves offence.

The reality is that the lines between direct offence and support roles in AO are rather blurry. Many theoretically primarily offensive professions in AO also have support tools. Classic examples are probably Advies and MAs with their clear healing prowess alongside offensive power. But also Soldiers with their reflect buffs and weapon OSBs etc. It's all too mixed up for support professions to have a stand out contribution.

If you look at a game like DDO, you'll find that the distinctions in roles are much more clear. There are classes/class combinations that are truly focussed on support and whose contribution really works as a true support role. Nearly all buffs and debuffs are given only to support classes with offence classes being almost entirely weapon/armour oriented. It's very difficult in DDO to create a character that is strong in offence and also has decent support role functionality. The trade-offs between one and the other are much harsher.

As a result of the confusion of offence and support tools in AO profession design templates, it's very difficult for those professions that perhaps should be delivering in a support role to be able to make a strong enough contribution to team survivability and killing power. The end result has been that over time, all suppport professions have been forced to try to be 'all-rounders' of some kind.... having to provide strong DPS as well as their suppport role tools. The way that AO PvP works also adds pressures to this.

It's a difficulty for AO that would be very difficult to fix, since the toolsets of so many professions are too deeply embedded I fear.

X

Again, I hardly consider hour-long buffs, or even worse, passive auras, as 'role-defining'. Every profession bar shades bring powerful buffs. Arguably, shades provide indirect buffs by draining their targets.
Being a buffing-totem is not a role description, as far as I'm concerned.

Your role in the team should be about what is it you actively contribute to the team. In the case of engis, MPs and crats, these are all very much offensively played professions. Yes, through it they support the team effort, but isn't that what every profession does? Yet I have yet to see anyone refer to a soldier as a support profession.

However, I don't see how soldiers differ from say, crats, in playstyle. Both are entirely offensively played professions. Their approach and specific methods differ greatly, that much is true, where one is a button mashing damage only type player, and the other has pets and CC on top of their weaponry. But to label one as a 'stand back and let the real men do the work' profession whereas the other is somehow the 'I should be able to wtfpwn everyone I see' profession is plain ridiculous.
Yet this is what people usually intend to say when they call a profession a 'support class', as in, 'you're not meant to function well on your own'.

[-Klod-]

MPs can slap on the new pistols, no?

I can slap on shen stick as well, it doesn't make it a "clearly defined weapon choice" tho.

Still have better AS skill than engis or crats.

It's roughly the same, but higher AS skill alone brings nothing spectacular (at least not in MP's hands).

Ofc, pewpewbow is prolly a better option, since you'll still lack the AR to perk most people, even if there's an 80% def check, and I doubt it's worth the stupendous IP sink that is pistol/mr/burst.

Exactly.

Yet this is what people usually intend to say when they call a profession a 'support class', as in, 'you're not meant to function well on your own'.

Yes, this is so freakin' hilarious. It should be the other way around.

[crattey]

I can slap on shen stick as well, it doesn't make it a "clearly defined weapon choice" tho.

It's roughly the same, but higher AS skill alone brings nothing spectacular (at least not in MP's hands).

Mweh. I wouldn't call it clearly defined if it means you have to spend such insane amounts of IP and dedicate so much equipment slots that you effectively **** your actual toolset, just to be able to handle them in a rather mediocre fashion when compared to the pewpeweasymode professions.

As for the AS bit, I think you do have a higher multiplier, on top of reaching capped recharge easier Though with the pistol, that's less relevant, these days I guess. Haven't played for quite some time, since the bowcrats in fact, where the few hundred extra AS MPs have over us were significant.
With upcoming AS nerfs however, your precious AS research goes into the crapper, too. Can't wait to be reduced to throwing wet cottonballs onto people.

Yes, this is so freakin' hilarious. It should be the other way around.

A small part of my faith in humanity dies every time I here soldiers complain about how MPs/crats shouldn't be able to kill them, or how our role is not engage the enemy but rather to stand back within aura range or refresh their 8hr mochies.
Even more so when melee professions that opt out of using any of the tools provided to them to become immune to roots complain that a profession that's focused around roots is somehow able to...... wait for it......... root them.

[Xtremtech]

Again, I hardly consider hour-long buffs, or even worse, passive auras, as 'role-defining'. Every profession bar shades bring powerful buffs. Arguably, shades provide indirect buffs by draining their targets.
Being a buffing-totem is not a role description, as far as I'm concerned.

Your role in the team should be about what is it you actively contribute to the team. In the case of engis, MPs and crats, these are all very much offensively played professions. Yes, through it they support the team effort, but isn't that what every profession does? Yet I have yet to see anyone refer to a soldier as a support profession.

However, I don't see how soldiers differ from say, crats, in playstyle. Both are entirely offensively played professions. Their approach and specific methods differ greatly, that much is true, where one is a button mashing damage only type player, and the other has pets and CC on top of their weaponry. But to label one as a 'stand back and let the real men do the work' profession whereas the other is somehow the 'I should be able to wtfpwn everyone I see' profession is plain ridiculous.
Yet this is what people usually intend to say when they call a profession a 'support class', as in, 'you're not meant to function well on your own'.

All of which agrees with my point... AO has blurred the lines between Offence and Support roles across the professions and as a result the distinctions between these roles in AO are to some extent moot.

X

[-Klod-]

Mweh. I wouldn't call it clearly defined if it means you have to spend such insane amounts of IP and dedicate so much equipment slots that you effectively **** your actual toolset, just to be able to handle them in a rather mediocre fashion when compared to the pewpeweasymode professions.

Having actual support for this specific weapon line via research, perks, nano programs, symbiants... Yes, I would call that as clearly defined.

Anyways, let see how FC deals with your broken toolset and ours... Crats/engies :: MPs :: advies

[crattey]

All of which agrees with my point... AO has blurred the lines between Offence and Support roles across the professions and as a result the distinctions between these roles in AO are to some extent moot.

X

True. But I don't think we were ever support professions. We never had the ability to actively support our teams in any other way than pewpew'ing. MP healpets might have been useful at some point, but again, not the most involved task, sticking your pet on someone.

Also, I prefer to say that you agree to my point rather than the other way around, just so it feels like I win.

[Vgman01]

[/size]



Still making me sad.

Your post is the equivalent of telling women they don't have to think, they just need to sit there and look pretty.

We will have to aggree to disagree then. I simply do not share your viewpoint. As I said classes are generaly catagorised by what the most usefull things they bring to the table are. For mp's thats mostly buffs and debuffs. They can also support the healers (but not heal on their own) and support the dps (but not dps well enough on their own). As I also said earlier just because a prof happens to be a support prof that dosent instantly mean they should lack offence (or defence for that matter).

[Grim-One]

Even if I put everything to max AR and nerf everything else on my MP, i still get around 2500ish AR with all perks trained, etc..
And other pet profs can easily get 3200+ AR.

How about a fourth mp "totem" pet that passively buffs the casters AR as long as it is alive? That way you have more of a choice of what weapon to pick. Maybe even make the pet passively buff your attack pets AR as well. Could even go as far as to have "totem" pet buff the effeminacy of the heal and mezz pet as well. Or is that idea to OP?

[Johnnykay]

What the hell are you going to do with higher AR? Land those hardcore ranger perks? ;P

[Mountaingoat]

What the hell are you going to do with higher AR? Land those hardcore ranger perks? ;P

Aye, wtb about 300-400 more nanoskills and/or aad to be gone from perks that check NR (nao plx ).