How to Balance Ranged vs Melee

[Gatester]

Someone who is standing still can dodge easier than someone who is moving, this is REAL LIFE. The misconception that if someone is running away they are harder to hit is incorrect, you just adjust your aim. Watch some American football and see when the running backs are the most evasive. You will notice it is when they are stopped or at low speeds, not full sprints.

Back to viable solutions that make sense, rather than server and sync based catastrophes. Increase the CC tools available to melee professions. This includes pet professions and their Melee pets. There, done, balanced. What more do we need? Give melee controlled opportunities to keep within range of another player (yes even /follow will work on a snared opponent) and there will be few needed complaints.

Anything else involving range and melee involves PROFESSION toolsets and should not be screwed up with odd game-wide changes.

[Jekonam]

Someone who is standing still can dodge easier than someone who is moving, this is REAL LIFE. The misconception that if someone is running away they are harder to hit is incorrect, you just adjust your aim. Watch some American football and see when the running backs are the most evasive. You will notice it is when they are stopped or at low speeds, not full sprints.

I can see that you havent served in army.

Shooting a moving target is always harder than a sitting duck. Hitting a running target with a rifle i.e. from 300 meters away is extremely difficult.

And secondly, you don't dodge bullets in real life. You might, but is is very unlikely if you are NOT MOVING. Normal bullet from a rifle usually goes over 300m/s. You have approximately 1s to react if you are 300m away, and humans reaction time is 0.3-1s. The bullet can actually go faster than sound. This means that by the time you realize the bullet, you are too late. If shot by an effective military weapon, probably dead.

This example was 300m, in the game it is usually 50m which gives you even less time to react (impossible for human).

What my point is? Don't even mention real life and compare it to pixel games which are not based on real life.

[MachSchau]

I can see that you havent served in army.

Shooting a moving target is always harder than a sitting duck. Hitting a running target with a rifle i.e. from 300 meters away is extremely difficult.

And secondly, you don't dodge bullets in real life. You might, but is is very unlikely if you are NOT MOVING. Normal bullet from a rifle usually goes over 300m/s. You have approximately 1s to react if you are 300m away, and humans reaction time is 0.3-1s. The bullet can actually go faster than sound. This means that by the time you realize the bullet, you are too late. If shot by an effective military weapon, probably dead.

This example was 300m, in the game it is usually 50m which gives you even less time to react (impossible for human).

What my point is? Don't even mention real life and compare it to pixel games which are not based on real life.

Thats impossible to do! You can keep telling these nit wits over and over again to stop comparing RL to games but they give you this dumb founded expression like you dont know what you are talking about and that they are 100% correct.

[Gatester]

I can see that you havent served in army.

Shooting a moving target is always harder than a sitting duck. Hitting a running target with a rifle i.e. from 300 meters away is extremely difficult.

And secondly, you don't dodge bullets in real life. You might, but is is very unlikely if you are NOT MOVING. Normal bullet from a rifle usually goes over 300m/s. You have approximately 1s to react if you are 300m away, and humans reaction time is 0.3-1s. The bullet can actually go faster than sound. This means that by the time you realize the bullet, you are too late. If shot by an effective military weapon, probably dead.

This example was 300m, in the game it is usually 50m which gives you even less time to react (impossible for human).

What my point is? Don't even mention real life and compare it to pixel games which are not based on real life.

While moving your reflexes are lower. I was not mentioning real life like you were, as much as I was pointing out an actual fact from physical ability then referencing something people should understand to make the explanation easier. I'll try again, but since you cannot understand "This is Fact" I will resort to comparison that you should relate to. Go play dodgeball, and try dodging the balls while running and while standing still. Now do you think standing still but actively dodging your throws or running will avoid being hit more easily?

People dodging dodgeballs today would be similar to the physical abilities involved in Opifex dodging bullets in the future. This is physical fact not a real life comparison, unless you wish to start arguing that players should not fall back to the ground in AO because Gravity only makes sense in real life.

PS
No I haven't served in the army, but I have played dodgeball. Then again if we were playing 300m away in dodgeball, I suppose running or standing still wouldn't matter one bit would it?

[Jekonam]

While moving your reflexes are lower. I was not mentioning real life like you were, as much as I was pointing out an actual fact from physical ability then referencing something people should understand to make the explanation easier. I'll try again, but since you cannot understand "This is Fact" I will resort to comparison that you should relate to. Go play dodgeball, and try dodging the balls while running and while standing still. Now do you think standing still but actively dodging your throws or running will avoid being hit more easily?

People dodging dodgeballs today would be similar to the physical abilities involved in Opifex dodging bullets in the future. This is physical fact not a real life comparison, unless you wish to start arguing that players should not fall back to the ground in AO because Gravity only makes sense in real life.


PS
No I haven't served in the army, but I have played dodgeball. Then again if we were playing 300m away in dodgeball, I suppose running or standing still wouldn't matter one bit would it?

You were referring to real life. At least any normal human being would understand your earlier post in this manner.

"Someone who is standing still can dodge easier than someone who is moving, this is REAL LIFE. The misconception that if someone is running away they are harder to hit is incorrect, you just adjust your aim."

This is not a fact. This is incorrect and has nothing to do with real life or this game.

I just pointed out with logical explanation why normal physical laws are not used in Anarchy Online.

I don't have to play dodgeball because I know physics and I know even better how ballistics function.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

we're getting hung up in irrelevant details.

gatester had a good point: melee needs CC tools, such as snares. (or other?)


QFT.

[Marinegent]

No. i'll never play a ranged toon again if this terrible idea gets implemented.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

No. i'll never play a ranged toon again if this terrible idea gets implemented.

sweet! more melee!

terrible is subjective.

[Parranoid1]

sweet! more melee!

terrible is subjective.

no, not sweet, people leaving playing ranged profs (majority of the profs) means alot would think its stupid to HAVE to go melee because of a huge ranged nerf, and would more likely quit. Frankly taking that view point is terribly close minded.

But i do agree that most melee profs do need help closing the gap (and by gap i mean spatially), namely keeper/MA and to some degree shade (i say to some degree because shade does have sneak to close some gaps, element of suprise and all that), possible some more CC tools, short term snares etc (although i might be shrooming here, but i believe i heard something about a reverse knockback for keepers?). I dont really think at this point in time enforcers need any extra help getting to a target and staying near them.

[Dollcet]

Fixing the whole Ranged vs Melee issue :

Server Sync !
Once Melee Players dont have that awefull " out of range " anymore when visibly being Toe to Toe with a Ranged Player in those damn Kite-Fights then and only then you really can start adjusting Toolsets.
If you start dishing out Melee PvP Love in Form of CC tools or " adjusting " ranged AR that can Backfire ...
Remember Pet-Proffs before LE , you could ignore or root/snare/calm pets for the most part so Devs dished out a Ton of Buffs to boost them , they moved from " Rofl " to " better be carefull " ... then the pathing got improved and Pets turned "deadly".
If you improve Melee now and at some Point in the Future the Server-Sync get to the Point that your Toon is exactly where you see it then PvP is unbalanced in Favour of Melee .

Fix the Sync first , see how everything turn out and then adjust if needed.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

no, not sweet, people leaving playing ranged profs (majority of the profs) means alot would think its stupid to HAVE to go melee because of a huge ranged nerf, and would more likely quit. Frankly taking that view point is terribly close minded.

But i do agree that most melee profs do need help closing the gap (and by gap i mean spatially), namely keeper/MA and to some degree shade (i say to some degree because shade does have sneak to close some gaps, element of suprise and all that), possible some more CC tools, short term snares etc (although i might be shrooming here, but i believe i heard something about a reverse knockback for keepers?). I dont really think at this point in time enforcers need any extra help getting to a target and staying near them.

ok, point taken.

agree about keepers, shades and MAs and enfs. I think tho MA's are OK, not good mind you, but OK. If UWOS had a bit quicker recharge (30s) with a bigger -RS modifier on target, that would allow MA's to do a decent snare, and allow them to catch up a bit more. (mind you , MA's can't land it on fixers or ranged advies, or any other evade class, which kind of makes it useless.)

keepers and shades though, I don't think they are fine. Shades having the benefit of surprise attack and sneakability really doesn't cut it as an argument for them not needing CC help. (read how many threads are like: shades in BS are root/snare totems)... keepers are pretty much in the same boat with a bit more resistance, and no sneak ability and lower RS.

RS though shouldn't come into the argument, though, imo, movement in PVP needs to slow down, not speed up.

[Gatester]

This is not a fact. This is incorrect and has nothing to do with real life or this game.

I just pointed out with logical explanation why normal physical laws are not used in Anarchy Online.

I don't have to play dodgeball because I know physics and I know even better how ballistics function.

It's called Momentum. I say a moving object has a harder time dodging, I am referring to physics. You say a human cannot dodge a bullet, that is a stupid real life comparison not physics. Humans do not have the capability to dodge bullets, but it does not mean that it is not possible to dodge them. This is why you have to use relationships with relevant speeds, not including bullets, missles, and lasers with comments restricted by human restrictions and not physical possiblities.

I would like you to focus on this little excerpt here:
"Sports Science and Medicine: linear momentum
Top Home > Library > Health > Sports Science and Medicine
quantity of motion
The product of the mass and velocity of an object. The greater the linear momentum of a moving object, the greater the force needed to stop it or alter its direction."

A stationary object takes far less to alter its direction where an object moving in a linear fashion (a.k.a. a person running) will have a much harder time altering that direction. Now unless you can quote scientific basis for your arguments and not "military bullet dodging training", my fact holds true.

[Parranoid1]

agree about keepers, shades and MAs and enfs. I think tho MA's are OK, not good mind you, but OK. If UWOS had a bit quicker recharge (30s) with a bigger -RS modifier on target, that would allow MA's to do a decent snare, and allow them to catch up a bit more. (mind you , MA's can't land it on fixers or ranged advies, or any other evade class, which kind of makes it useless.)

UWOS is an NR buff/snare in one, so its not really designed for use against fixers/advys. it gives a very large NR buff for that period of time, which will mostly be useful on profs that they can land it on, docs, agents, nts, traders, etc.etc. (it buffs 1200 NR for 20 secs with a ql 250)

If it were to have a shorter recharge then the NR buff would need to be reduced on a massive scale, else it would become very very strong.

keepers and shades though, I don't think they are fine. Shades having the benefit of surprise attack and sneakability really doesn't cut it as an argument for them not needing CC help. (read how many threads are like: shades in BS are root/snare totems)... keepers are pretty much in the same boat with a bit more resistance, and no sneak ability and lower RS.

keepers do have the comfort that even if they are rooted, the will be able to take a somewhat decent amount of punishment, shades are less so, But in that regard, both of those profs do need more CC resistance or something to that effect.

I think its more, shades need CC resistance, keepers need CC to use on opponents. Shades dont have alot of trouble killing the target when they are at them, but they are easily subdued with CC, keepers can be subdued by CC but still survive a fairly long time, but they have troubles killing stuff or keeping up with targets. MA's will have (i think) better survivability with the upcoming love to their heals, and with their loss of alot in the hotswap nerf, maybe some sort of CC above UWOS

[Gatester]

Melee simply needs to be able to maintain range with any professions for a period of time. There is no excuse for any ranged prof never being in melee range if that is the only way they can die.

Beyond that there really is nothing that should be done in regards to balancing ranged and melee in pvp. PVM is a different story and there are several things that need to be done in an entirely range advantageous pvm system, but the biggest draw back for melee besides not hitting an opponent because they are permanently out of range are profession specific issues.

Keeper and shade toolsets need a few changes (yes just a few), MA's, enfs and advy would also just need a few adjustments that make their main offense "reliable". There is nothing wrong with your toon dieing to another toon in AO...I think that is the general point.

[Jekonam]

You say a human cannot dodge a bullet, that is a stupid real life comparison not physics.

No. I said its possible but unlikely. Read again, its not that hard.

I would like you to focus on this little excerpt here:
"Sports Science and Medicine: linear momentum
Top Home > Library > Health > Sports Science and Medicine
quantity of motion
The product of the mass and velocity of an object. The greater the linear momentum of a moving object, the greater the force needed to stop it or alter its direction."

A stationary object takes far less to alter its direction where an object moving in a linear fashion (a.k.a. a person running) will have a much harder time altering that direction. Now unless you can quote scientific basis for your arguments and not "military bullet dodging training", my fact holds true.

Read again what I wrote. Its not that hard. Human reaction time is not enough to say its plausible to dodge a bullet.

The reason why shooting a moving target is harder because you have a limited amount of time to aim for each coordinate. You have to readjust every second. When you are shooting stationary or slowly moving object you have more time to adjust (more time = probability of hit increases on average).

You have to know how to implement your knowledge. You didn't even think about human nature and the time required to do something.
And when the target is moving unexpectedly your reaction time is longer.

Thats why you are wrong.

[-Klod-]

Giving melee more CC tools will just bring additional abuse of ranged options by the very same melee people and they will continue to bitch about stuff being unfair.

You fix, NOTHING. Absolutely nothing. You do, however, lose paying customers who play ranged toons.

[Gunfytr]

Fixing the whole Ranged vs Melee issue :

Server Sync !
Once Melee Players dont have that awefull " out of range " anymore when visibly being Toe to Toe with a Ranged Player in those damn Kite-Fights then and only then you really can start adjusting Toolsets.
If you start dishing out Melee PvP Love in Form of CC tools or " adjusting " ranged AR that can Backfire ...
Remember Pet-Proffs before LE , you could ignore or root/snare/calm pets for the most part so Devs dished out a Ton of Buffs to boost them , they moved from " Rofl " to " better be carefull " ... then the pathing got improved and Pets turned "deadly".
If you improve Melee now and at some Point in the Future the Server-Sync get to the Point that your Toon is exactly where you see it then PvP is unbalanced in Favour of Melee .

Fix the Sync first , see how everything turn out and then adjust if needed.

qft

/thread

[Sniker]

A stationary object takes far less to alter its direction where an object moving in a linear fashion (a.k.a. a person running) will have a much harder time altering that direction. Now unless you can quote scientific basis for your arguments and not "military bullet dodging training", my fact holds true.

while your facts are true to the real world... Anarchy online is and will Always be a video game thus the physics and laws etc does not fit into a fictional game with space shuttles flying Yalms without the need of any fuel (or refuel ever).

nanobots that alter your looks (advy morphs).

guess you get my point there

[Gatester]

No. I said its possible but unlikely. Read again, its not that hard.

Read again what I wrote. Its not that hard. Human reaction time is not enough to say its plausible to dodge a bullet.

The reason why shooting a moving target is harder because you have a limited amount of time to aim for each coordinate. You have to readjust every second. When you are shooting stationary or slowly moving object you have more time to adjust (more time = probability of hit increases on average).

You have to know how to implement your knowledge. You didn't even think about human nature and the time required to do something.
And when the target is moving unexpectedly your reaction time is longer.

Thats why you are wrong.

Or, if you have the reflexes to dodge bullets (which you do in Anarchy Online), you also have the ability to adjust your aim to follow and shoot a moving target. This means the point at which something will be able to alter their position the fastest would be the point at which their ability to dodge is the highest.

Stop making points based on human limitations rather than scientific fact. You are saying humans are unable to adjust their aim to move with a target and shoot them, that is comparing a game to real life. In AO you CAN shoot a moving target, but you CANNOT move your bullets after they have been fired from your weapon to shoot a player who is dodging your shots. The faster an object is moving, the less able it is to alter its direction. This means you can more accurately "predict" where that moving target will be.

Besides, I would like to know how your wild arguments apply to the AEGIS defense system for battleships. You see, computers have no problem adjusting for moving targets, its called tracking. Start zig-zagging and computers do not do so well do they?

while your facts are true to the real world... Anarchy online is and will Always be a video game thus the physics and laws etc does not fit into a fictional game with space shuttles flying Yalms without the need of any fuel (or refuel ever).

nanobots that alter your looks (advy morphs).

guess you get my point there

Yes, a game shouldn't be based on realistic physics, you should jump and never come back down, you should fall through the ground or walk through walls, and when you run you should just run in place rather than move in a direction.

Obviously, no game designer ever uses real-world physics.

[Burgly]

meele profs already have something to compensate over the lack of range, its called higher dmg and defense

The dmg part might be true for MAs and Keepers, but shades got generally low dmg (if we cant perk the target (regular dmg)). And our only true def is evades (which is kinda broken anyways) and we have to chose between def and ar, without ar we cant kill s**t

And i would call root a defense, which renders most melee profs (except enfs) useless (unless we're SD perked ofc, which i cant afford on my shade atleast.)