Balancing pvp how about pvm?

[Aeliniyah]

And you should leave UBT out of that list since it never lands on anything where it actually would be useful.

[Saetos]

And you should leave UBT out of that list since it never lands on anything where it actually would be useful.

So if we take out UBT (seriously, UBT is that hard to land?), and throw in 600 from crat nuke, 1031 from Malaise of Zeal (is FunCom high!? They get ANOTHER 1031?) and 300 from Engi-dog proc, we're up to 9868 init debuffs. Remember, that's not counting UBT, which would bring the total to 11 320.


Yea.

[Josephina]

Most endgame bosses have 100% (or atleast close enough) immunity to ubt, ask the agents sitting on lft. It's probably something that FC has added in the past because too much init debuffing trivialized the encounters. And that was before the current devs added even more init debuffing than ever before.

When doctor and crat init debuffs are combined now, even with ubt not working, it is already too much for most encounters. Even for encounters with large init debuff thresholds like "12man".

[Josephina]

I've been wondering: Is there a diminishing returns effect for negative -init as well?
Just as initiatives above 1200 are only a third as effective, it would make sense to make initiatives below -X less severe.

In the case that there isn't a diminishing returns effect, you get the following graph with mitigated and remaining damage: http://www.mediafire.com/?dmhjyk33ntw (dualwielded 1/1 weapons, full def and the initiative skill is on the X-axis)

This really shows how powerful init debuffing is and because of what currently is available as init debuffing, I also hope that there is at least some kind of diminishing returns system in place.

[Moonbolt]

as far as im aware UBT and crat init debuffs doesnt stack

[Mountaingoat]

as far as im aware UBT and crat init debuffs doesnt stack

Right.

[Kazeran]

Right.

Wrong.

Only UBT and mal don't stack. UBT and the red line debuffs do.

[Anarchic1]

though isn't the mal the only one equivalent to ubt and does mal stack with red line debuffs

[Louderer789]

as far as im aware UBT and crat init debuffs doesnt stack

Several of the doc init debuffs being attributed to docs in this instance are procs, which do stack.

[Kazeran]

though isn't the mal the only one equivalent to ubt and does mal stack with red line debuffs

mal does stack with red line debuffs, it also stacks with workplace depression.

[Anarchic1]

Newbs. l2pvmb4uh8kk

UBT and malaise can override one another, red tape nanos stack with everything, workplace depression gives a init debuff when the nuke lands. MP debuffs override malaise etc.

There are a lot of small little init debuffs that dont last long that come from perks, nanos or procs but the thing with the crat debuff nanos is that they can always be running on the target. Unlike procs and perks they are random for procs (VERY random) and a wait time for perks so there isn't a spammability issue.

that's what i figured

[Mountaingoat]

Wrong.

Only UBT and mal don't stack. UBT and the red line debuffs do.

Woops read his post thinking malaise only.

[Saetos]

Most endgame bosses have 100% (or atleast close enough) immunity to ubt, ask the agents sitting on lft. It's probably something that FC has added in the past because too much init debuffing trivialized the encounters. And that was before the current devs added even more init debuffing than ever before.

Oh boo hoo, they can UBT. Well there's 6000-8000 other initiatives FunCom has ignored.

[Saetos]

Alright, just to prove the point further, I'm going to list the various buffs and debuffs that can result in a sample raid. This assumes a team of 6 people of level 220 and fully geared and expertly skilled: a Shade, a Trader, a Nano-Technician, a Bureaucrat, a Doctor, and an Engineer. Perhaps except for Beast, this isn't a bad raiding team in and of itself - you've got plenty of DD potential from the NT, Shade, Engineer, and Crat, and good heals from the Doctor and backup nanopool/health regen from the Trader.

On top of:

[ AAO Debuffs ]
Trader: 470 [ Nanite Improved Drains / LE procs ]
Nano-Technician: 500 [ Optic Plague ]
Engineer: 1210 [ spammed Disruptive Void Projector ]
Shade: 726 [ Spirit Phylactery 10, Blur ]
================
Total: -2906 AAO

[ Nano-Resist Debuffs ]
Trader: 6650 [ Eviscerate Defense / Attenuate Defense ]
Bureaucrat: 410 [ Demotivational Speech: Dead Man Walking ]
============
Total: -7060 NR

[ Init Debuffs ]
Doctor: 4927 [ UBT/LE Procs ]
Bureaucrat: 1530 [ various Red Tapes / crat nuke ]
Nano-Technician: 300 [ Dazzle with Lights ]
Engineer: 600 [ Ravening Dog nuke proc ]
Shade: 850 [ Degeneration of Celerity ]
================
Total: -8207 Inits (all of them)

... which with luck can all be on the boss at the same time. Not a good chance, sure, but really, with not a single boss in the game able to clear his NCU, it becomes a one-trick-pony strategy of "cast Trader NR debuffs, throw 2 quadrillion debuffs at it, beat it with pointy sticks".

On the flip side, let's assume a team of the following, again 220 and skilled/equipped: Enforcer, Bureaucrat, Soldier, Doctor, Keeper, Fixer. Here's what these professions can give our lovely meatshield:

Enforcer:
29000 Hitpoints from Essence
10630 Hitpoints from perks
510 point 1-second tick HOT
1371 spammable absorb
200 AddAllDef
Access to Cocoon
Access to Bio Rejuvenation
Access to Bio Regrowth

Doctor:
140001 heal every 20 seconds (well-equipped Doctor can pull out about 40% HealEfficiency, if not more)
11223-13043 heal every 4 seconds
-- Neither heal pulls sufficient agg from a decent Enforcer
6945 Hitpoints
65 HealDelta
Four 5-6k AOE heals, every 10 minutes each.

Bureaucrat:
510 AddAllDef
293 AddAllOff

Soldier:
28% reflects (permanent)
20% reflects (every 5 minutes)
44 AddAllOff
133 MeleeInit
108 damage

Keeper:
1053 20s/tick HOT
Choice of: 2 full attack absorb, 6% reflect, or 90 AAO/180 AAD
150 damage
485-970 Type 1 team heal LE proc
481-948 Type 2 team heal LE proc
Blessing heals
Bio Rejuvenation #2
Bio Regrowth #2

Fixer:
500 NCU
345-545 5-sec HOT
466-502 10-sec HOT
820 RunSpeed

TOTAL
46305 HitPoints
3033.25 HP/sec from Doctor heal (not including ICH)
731.55 HP/sec from all HOTs
500 NCU
820 RunSpeed
258 damage
890 AAD
427 AAO
28%-54% reflects
various other perk/proc absorbs, HOTs, heals

Essentially, take a lot of the debuffs from up top, add the buffs from here, and you have today's raiding environment, being used to fight "end" bosses created 7 years ago.

[Nukemon]

[ Nano-Resist Debuffs ]
Trader: 6650 [ Eviscerate Defense / Attenuate Defense ]
Bureaucrat: 410 [ Demotivational Speech: Dead Man Walking ]
============
Total: -7060 NR

Nano-Technician: 3000 [ Constant Barrage ]
NT constant barrage is also a nice NR debuff, but does it stack with the trader debuff?

[Saetos]

Nano-Technician: 3000 [ Constant Barrage ]
NT constant barrage is also a nice NR debuff, but does it stack with the trader debuff?

Nope.

Eviscerate Defense (-250) and Constant Barrage stack, but Attenuate Defense (-6400) overrides Constant Barrage.

[Molotoff]

[ AAO Debuffs ]
Trader: 470 [ Nanite Improved Drains / LE procs ]
Nano-Technician: 500 [ Optic Plague ]
Engineer: 1210 [ spammed Disruptive Void Projector ]
Shade: 726 [ Spirit Phylactery 10, Blur ]
================
Total: -2906 AAO

Engi and NT nano blinds are in the same nanoline.

If you want to stack everything at the same time, you can add Dazzle with light here too for 300 (instead of using it during optic plague lockout with lower blind)

[ Init Debuffs ]
Doctor: 4927 [ UBT/LE Procs ]
Bureaucrat: 1530 [ various Red Tapes / crat nuke ]
Nano-Technician: 300 [ Dazzle with Lights ]
Engineer: 600 [ Ravening Dog nuke proc ]
Shade: 850 [ Degeneration of Celerity ]
================
Total: -8207 Inits (all of them)

Shame on you, you forgot NT init debuff nuke !

Bureaucrat:
510 AddAllDef
293 AddAllOff

Commanding presence + speech would be 393 AAO. But you can also add ICRT for 50 aad and 25 aao.

Keeper:
485-970 Type 1 team heal LE proc

I'd rather go with Symbiotic Bypass, the team evade proc : 140evade clc and 40 dodge/duck (if comment in auno is accurate) for all the team.

[Obtena]

What a great and academic argument ... What are we talking about again?

[Anarchic1]

how classes that aren't listed at all above, have no use in pvm, which is dominated by 6 man tank and spank encounters

[erozc]

Engie blinds do not apply on boss mobs anyway since you'll be hitting it most often at the same time.