Gaute's word on LLTS and criticals

[__________Lucid Flow]

Originally posted by Firedrake
And Valroshe, where you failed in your logic was in assuming Lucid to be in his right mind when he endorsed nerfing scopes.

And for the record, nerfs bite

So you are an advocate of unfair advantages and against balance in this game?

[__________Beautyfarm]

Originally posted by DaveDread


Hehe yeah I know. I'll stop that, I'm just trying to make a point by pointing out that what is stated in the profession descriptions isn't exactly the truth. What makes a real MA a better MA user is our crit-buffs, as simple as that.
/me workworkwork

hehe sorry i jumped you here, im just sick of everyone crying for nerfs and that sounded too much like "they can have better attack rating than me ! *points finger* me gimp, nerf them !" for my taste. glad i understood you wrong here.

[_________Disciple092]

lol i really cant believe this is happening.....so maybe this is all a mindgame made up by FC...........

Much like a horrible hurricane that is heading for your community but veers off course at the last minute and misses you.....

this "fix" will destroy engineers and cripple all ther melee users......with all this panic in game and on the forums you would think that Armageddon was about to come for us all....

hopefully FC just wants us to breathe a sigh of relief when they nerf LLTS to 8% like thay said 2 weeks ago

if not i think the biggest nerf will soon follow...the one where FC's playerbase of paying customers has their critical chance of canceling increased by 100%

[___________Firedrake]

Originally posted by Lucid Flow
So you are an advocate of unfair advantages and against balance in this game?

Gee, weren't you the one just ranting about assumptions? For one thing, I don't view the LLTS as contributing to more of an unfair advantage than any other piece of equipment. Does having a 15% LLTS give someone an advantage over someone who doesn't with all other things being equal? Yes, but so would many, MANY other pieces of equipment. And you CAN indeed get the LLTS's even though they will cost you. In fact you can get them far easier than more than a couple high level items I could name. I don't buy for a minute the argument that everything in the game needs to currently drop. But that's a moot point if FC just makes them drop again, which it can do just as easily as nerfing them.

But when you get to the bottom line, there will be NO perfect balance in PvP. Some will ALWAYS have some advantage or another over others. That's reality. That's why it sickens me when some crybaby PvPers in soiled pampers keep hollering for nerf after nerf after nerf. It is even more disgusting that FC listens to this pestulance. And the bald fact is that the majority of folks on AO don't give a rabid rollerrat's rump about PvP and probably never will. FC needs to wake up to the fact that a LOT of folks are quitting or thinking hard about it due to all the nerfs.

Sometimes I think FC needs to make a PvP only server, where everyone on it has the same char class, same equip, same everything. Then at least the nerfmongers might be quiet...for a day or so.

[__________Lucid Flow]

Originally posted by Firedrake
Gee, weren't you the one just ranting about assumptions, buckwheat?

That's reality. That's why it sickens me when some crybaby PvPers in soiled pampers keep hollering for nerf after nerf after nerf.

Then at least the nerfmongers might be quiet...for a day or so.

Buckwheat? I stopped reading right there. If all you can do in your first sentence is insult me, then i'm not going to bother to listen. I'm not going to respond to anymore of yours posts.

Reading the above lines, do you think anybody takes you seriously? If all you can do is attack me personally rather then the logic of what I say, you must not have anything more to say. For some reason you think by calling me names, you can invalidate what I have to say.

It doesn't work like that. Bye Bye

/squelch

[_____________Condaan]

This is WAY-WAY too high for the system to handle without changes.

Before getting into the proposed changes, can we get someone from FC to explain precisely what 'WAY-WAY' means, in terms of percentages? Granted, the percentages which were used are off. Also remember that 99.99% of the player base will never...ever...reach critical percentages at those levels. Also, remember that in order to achieve those critical percentages, one must sacrifice 800 Inits, and eat an agg/def hit which means getting critted...a lot.

What is too high?

I'd consider myself a 'normal' although reasonably well equipped MA. I can selfcast UVC at level 167 with a lot of random pieces of gear, and a couple of semi-rare items, and a LOT of ip spent in non-essential areas. My crit rate is along the lines of 3% base, 8% from scope (have a 13%, but don't use it), 24% from UVC. 35%, is that too high, WAY too high, or WAY-WAY too high? I used an FOB once...once in my 167 levels. The number of situations where the additional crit% outweighs the negatives of the evades hit is miniscule at best. 20 Seconds of 20% extra crit (not possible, but for the sake of argument) is a 20% extra chance over the course of ~10 attacks (at 1/1) would be...2 extra crits in the best of worlds. Let's consider where most 150+ characters spend their time:

Missions (189-195 or so):
Regular mobs - no need for FoB, they die plenty fast anyway. Using FoB would be a 'fun' thing. The last thing I'd normally want to do is open myself up for a bunch of crits, in case the next room is a couple of RM enf type mobs, who might actually have a remote chance of killing me.
Boss mobs - HP boss the 20 seconds of extra crits are going to help...by reducing the amount of time required from 10 minutes to 9.95 minutes. Crit boss - Ummmm, yeah, I'd use FoB here. Random other type bosses - the extra 4k damage would still NEVER be worth the additional damage I'd take in being critted.

Result: I never use FoB in Missions

Outdoor hunting:
Exp - See missions.
Farming Uniques - Uniques generally have low evades anyway, but hit relatively hard and have a lot of HP for their level. Unless contesting for a mob, where getting hit a couple of times didn't matter, I wouldn't use FoB in a regular fight. In a contested spawn...if the 2 extra crits would make a difference, the Agent with a 10k aimed shot and 100% crits after is going to outdamage me in that 3 second ordeal anyway. Or the Enf with a 10k sneak attack. Regardless, this probably makes up 0.0000001% of your average player's time in AO.

PvP:
1 vs. 1 - Who cares. Balancing the game for 1 vs. 1 is a ridiculous concept.
Team vs. Team - possible use here, to take out their doc, if a coordinated attack is possible. Either way, tactics will play a much bigger part in the fight than a crit here or there. Downside of getting critted will play a big part here.
Side vs. Side - Tactics and Lag will far outweigh a few extra crits. Getting critted will probably outweigh the extra crits you can sneak in with FoB.
Ganking - Who cares.
Title contest - Who cares.

Thus, when is FoB useful for an MA? It's not. If you people decide to pass down a nerf that affects 90% of the population in one fashion or another, in order to handle 'WAY-WAY' too high of a potential crit percentage that one person, once, used in one situation that was made possible by a confluence of factors not seen since the dawning of the ages...well christ, let's nerf the game down to pong for dummies.

Ok, there's my understanding of 'WAY-WAY' too high, and it's application to a quasi-normal MA. Basically, while theoretically possible to attain a ~60% crit chance, there are almost no situations where it actually benefits the player to do so. Going forward, I'll refer to this as "the assumption that anyone would severely gimp themselves in the short term, in order to achieve marginal benefit in the shorter term." On to the suggestions...

we should instead change all the critical increase effects so that they do not stack in an unintended way

A ray of hope...

For instance, Low Light Targeting Scope is something that should be used for ranged combat.

which is dimming by the second. Granted, you have some basis due to the description of the scope itself. However, how are we going to justify bows, though being on PhysInit (sometimes, heh) not being affected by LLTS? If we were to grant you "the assumption that anyone would severely gimp themselves in the short term, in order to achieve marginal benefit in the shorter term", then this change would make some sense...in Bizzaro world. With as much as LLTS have been discussed, why was this "INTENTION" never implemented before? We have an item, which forces it's user to take more time finding a good point at which to aim. The reward for that extra time, is an increase in the chance to score a Critical Hit. If that's not a fair approximation of the "INTENTION" of an LLTS, someone send up an air baloon full of water buffalos and drop 'em on me, because it sure seems that way. Can melee users not take more time to find an opening in the opponent's defenses? Can we not wait for the appropriate moment and stab a dirk into a ***** in someone's body armor, as opposed to just randomly poking away? If anything, this ability should be a slider bar that everyone can set per their preference, as opposed to an item that needs to be equipped.

Self only MA Crit buffs are something that should not be used with shotguns and so on.

So that's why they were castable on others for most of the course of the game. I'm sure the "INTENTION" of these nanos was the reason they were changed to self only, as opposed to the fact that people were levelling too fast. In fact, the "INTENTION" of these nanos were so skewed, that a watered down version of these nanos were introduced, so that the "INTENTION" wouldn't be in question.

1. Give "Flurry of Blows" and "Eye of the Hunter" (Adv only version of FoB) a massive decrease on Long Range Initative. This way there will be no adding up with ranged weapons critical increase items or nanos. (It still adds up with Bureaucrat Speeches or Martial Artist nanos.)

No real issue here, except...these items SUCK anyway! Give them a massive decrease on LRI, then make them just like scope in that their affects are permanent, rather than triggered. Or...or...or...just leave them as is, since about 2 people, ever, have used these items for purposes other than 'kicks' or to gain aggro in a really bad situation (god forbid those tanks can do their job).

2. Give Martial Artists Self Crit buffs a massive decrease on Long Range Initiative. (This does not affect bows, as they use Physical Prowess Initiative - same as the martial arts attack).

Sure, lets nerf MAs self crit buffs and add a new LRI debuff to them. But, since the Mark line is an offshoot of the crit buff line, and their probable "INTENTION" is at least similar to the self only line, lets nerf those too. In fact, while we're at it, let's throw a negative to PhysInit and MeleeInit on the Humidity Extractor, CrunchCom, and TTS nanos. Also, let's add a big negative nano-delta and nano cost to any HP line. Lets add minus damage to any reflect line. What do all of these changes have to do with the affected nano line? *incoming clue* NOTHING! that's the point. Let's talk this one up folks, maybe we can have bassackwards changes to every nano line in the game, adding some completely unrelated negative associated to every positive nano in the game...OR...let's not.

3. Give Low Light Targeting Scopes a massive Physical Prowess - and Close Combat Initiative decrease. At the same time decrease the Initative Penalty on ranged combat initiative in all targeting scopes! (it should be there because targeting through a scope is slower - it is logical.) but it will be better for existing players using ranged combat!

/puke

Here's an idea, lets pit some of the players against some of the other players, of whom the first set of players have been jealous recently, since by doing so, we'll deflect flames from ourselves! (yes I added the "!" on purpose). Nerf the PI and MI portions if you must, but do so in good conscience. This blatant appeasment of the whiners in our midst is sickening. Also, what about "existing players using ranged combat [with bows]!"?

4. Change all other existing critical increase items and nanos to follow this pattern.

So TTS and Crat crit speech is going to have a negative to RI? GoC is going to have negatives of all sorts added to it? The Mark line is going to have negative to RI?

And people are buying into this? Did I miss letshavealobotomy day today?

If we do it this way most people (hopefully) will see their interaction with the critical system change in a more logical way! (Targeting scopes for ranged combat, Martial Artist for his special abilities and so on). All people having an existing LLTS will be compensated.

the rest of us, who can actually extrapolate ideas, and apply them to imaginary though probable situations(frequently called drawing conclusions) will recognize these changes for what they are, a load of bunk.

Everyone is nerfed here. Everyone is affected adversely. If you follow the guidelines of your suggestions:

MAs lose up to 15% crit chance, even though a vast majority of us NEVER use FoB, and would rather just keep our VE or LLTS.

Other Melee, and MA users lose up to 15% crit chance. Some of the melee folks may use FoB, but I'm guessing all of them would give it up rather than agree to your proposed implementation.

Ranged users lose up to 11% crit chance (if all nanos are changed to have the same limitations as UVC). If TTS, Mark and the Crat speaches still affect Ranged weapons, without a hit to RI, then Ranged users lose nothing (since they don't use FOB anyway).

Put up a poll:
Would you rather have an item that increase your critical chance by 20% (well, really 16% since you can never equip a 20% version) which is activated at most, once every 2 minutes, and causes your evades to be dropped to zilch...or...an item that allows up to 15% critical, can be OE'd, costs a fair chunk of IP and a fairer chunk of creds, and is active all the time.

Which one do you think is going to get the most votes?

The real point of all of this...

Don't nerf anything, it's not broken. The buffs, in general are balanced. TTS is a nice bonus when you have an agent in the group and a fixer in the group to give you enough NCU to have it runing. Crat speeches are nice when there's not an MA in the team (rare). MA-other buffs are currently well balanced for NCU cost and benefit to the user. MA-self buffs are our profession defining nano and balanced for our 'over time' damage.

The items are balanced within themselves. LLTS aren't broken, though inits in general are, so the negative effects aren't felt as much atm. FoB aren't broken, but are VERY situational in their usefulness.

Oh well, this will probably be deleted, but maybe someone will get a good read out of it.

Condaan

[Ethernal (Mega)]

Hello, this is just a little post from “yours truly.” I haven’t been on the forums, since I was banned, and was never told why. This topic, however, has pushed me over the edge; filled with absolute inaccuracies, and it questions if anyone – and I mean anyone – at Funcom plays their own game. The only thing they seem to be good at, besides the ability to nerf things, is the ability to spin things around and make it sound as if they are saving heroes. However, this is hardly the truth. Instead, they have done nothing but lied, lied, and lied again, and then thrown out misinformation. They are merely trying to conform to the sheep, those who put their effort into whining instead of making their character better.

First, I shall review Gaute’s post, and then correct every other post on this thread so far (to the best of my ability.) If I have any inaccuracies in the data, feel free to correct me, though I doubt there should be many errors…


Gaute’s Post
Dear player of AO.


The ability to increase your chance of getting a critical in combat is an integral part of the game. It is something we want, and we do not frown upon it. Our problem is that too many of the items that increase your critical chance actually stack. (Add up). As the system is today you can have the following things stack with little or no penalty:

The “little or no penalty” is hardly accurate. The only item that doesn’t have a penalty is the “Base Critical Chance.”

1. Base Critical Chance (3%)

More or less the only “crit modifier” that I agree with.

2. Flurry of Blows (20% critical increase at QL 200)

I believe this is a grand misconception on your part, my dear Gaute. Please read your own patch notes (http://www.anarchy-online.com/content/game/inproduction/live/old/14_2]Patch 14.2) where it clearly states “In a general effort to not have the increased critical chances the only way of success, the Flurry of Blows has been changed. Its critical increase effect has been reduced with 5 seconds. To compensate for this, we have increased the effect of the high level bonus to AggDef. Do remember though, that a high AggDef is a double-edged sword.” However, this little “spin” chat, is more or less, a simpler way to say “we nerfed the Flurry of Blows.” The critical chance increase appears to be non-existant (source: =%2A]Auno.org Also, Flurry of Blows itself doesn’t show that it adds a critical increase in its description). The only thing that increases the critical chance of it is that it increases Agg/Def, and therefore increases crit chance. This increase in crit chance comes at a price, as your ability to crit your opponent is greatly increased, such as when you duel at full agg, and your openent as well, you will see more crits than otherwise naturally seen.

To add to this frustration, the Flurry of Blows lasts a maximum of 30 seconds. That is assuming you get a ql 200 FoB on, which is nearly impossible. Even with Ql 200 Implants, and maxed Fast Attack, it is not enough. So, in all reality, you get No crit increase from Flurry of Blows, other than that from the Agg/Def change..



3. The old "Low Light Targeting Scopes" (15% at QL 200)

Yes, this is completely true. However, this has negative consequences for all but the fastest weapons (and even then, it is often required to implant Ranged Init., and other speed increasing things.)

4. Self Only MA Crit Buff (24%) or Crat Speech Crit Buff (11%) at high levels.

This is the one that really makes me wonder if you play your own game. The Crat Speech “buff” is only 7%. Not to mention that it does NOT stack with UVC nor any of the non-Self Only buffs that Martial Artists also have. However, Take The Shot and Globes of Clarity DO stack. (2% for globes, 4% for Take the Shot)

Summing this together you get 62% for Martiial Artist and 49% for everyone else. This is WAY-WAY too high for the system to handle without changes.

Let us redo the math with the “changed” numbers, shall we?

Non-MAs: 3% (Base) + 7% (Mark of Peril) + 7% (TTS/Globes) + 15% (Scope).
Mas: 3% (Base) + 24% + 7% + 15%

So, we now have a much more reasonable 32% crit chance, and the Mas have 49%. Many people would perhaps claim that this is far too much, but you must keep in mind that this is with the best equip in the game, with 2 Globes of Clarity (Tarasque Drop), plus when you are buffed by an Agent.

Now we take full responsibility for it being this way. I apologize that we have to change the rules, but this is the nature of an MMO (sadly). The number of variables are infinite. Anyway, If I as the game-director were to allow this to go on unchanged it would mean that I would have to increase difficulty of ALL monsters in the game to balance the additional lethal powers of the players. Everyone would have a much harder time.

What lethal powers of the players? As Azzamazzion said, we are killing yellows and greens at level 190 with a full group. We should, hypothetically speaking, be able to solo these creatures, and for most of them, we can. (With the exception of certain Real Means / Aces to certain professions at level 200.) So, a group of 6 are killing things that are yellow to us. That is your fault for making it that way. If we were killing level 250 mobs with the same ease, then it would be different, but at the moment, not only are level 250 mobs godly, they give such insolent XP as to try and kill them. It takes more than 10 minutes to kill a level 250 mob, assuming it is a crat/NT class, and then you get roughly 100,000 XP at level 200. Not very viable, I am afraid.

We indicated in a discussion with you that we would like to change the existing Low Light Targeting Scopes to be similar to the new ones. This received MASSIVE negative feedback. Thus, we listen to you! We will not do it that way.

You did not listen to you. I believe that roughly 75% of the people in the thread said “DO NOT NERF THEM!” Instead, you just find a different way to nerf them that affects fewer people (Martial Artists, who it doesn’t really affect [see below], some Adventurers, some Engies, and enforcers, and anyone who tries to go against the grain and use bows, etc.)

I have pondered this for some time, and instead of doing a targeted "nerf" against the LLTS, we should instead change all the critical increase effects so that they do not stack in an unintended way. For instance, Low Light Targeting Scope is something that should be used for ranged combat. Self only MA Crit buffs are something that should not be used with shotguns and so on. This was their INTENTION, the way they were described and perceived by most players. I have thus the following suggestion:

I agree that the crit buffs for Mas should be for martial arts only, but, as other people have stated, this game takes place 30,000 years in the future. No longer are “scopes” things that you place on guns. You base the game on things that are happening, not even now (as many armies from countries use targeting / night vision devices on things in front of there eyes, not from their guns).

1. Give "Flurry of Blows" and "Eye of the Hunter" (Adv only version of FoB) a massive decrease on Long Range Initative. This way there will be no adding up with ranged weapons critical increase items or nanos. (It still adds up with Bureaucrat Speeches or Martial Artist nanos.)

It isn’t like this increases the crit chance, so I don’t see why you even need to nerf it in the first place. The only thing it increases for a ranged user is AGG/DEF, so, therefore, it is not as useful as it would be for an enforcer. (i.e. the melee init. Buff)


2. Give Martial Artists Self Crit buffs a massive decrease on Long Range Initiative. (This does not affect bows, as they use Physical Prowess Initiative - same as the martial arts attack).

I agree with this, and this is about the only nerf I agree with. However, coming with this, there needs to be a reasonable number of IP Reset points for MAs who use this combo as of now.

3. Give Low Light Targeting Scopes a massive Physical Prowess - and Close Combat Initiative decrease. At the same time decrease the Initative Penalty on ranged combat initiative in all targeting scopes! (it should be there because targeting through a scope is slower - it is logical.) but it will be better for existing players using ranged combat!

So, nerf many classes, while boosting others? You make less and less sense every time you try to “fix” the game. I don’t know what else to say on this, as this pargraph merely baffles my mind.

4. Change all other existing critical increase items and nanos to follow this pattern.
So, Take the Shot, etc, will all have ranged init. debuffs on them? Poor agents, I do say, since it IS their buff.

If we do it this way most people (hopefully) will see their interaction with the critical system change in a more logical way! (Targeting scopes for ranged combat, Martial Artist for his special abilities and so on). All people having an existing LLTS will be compensated.

I have already been able to explain this (i.e. this is the future, you don’t put scopes on guns anymore.)




The general review for Gaute’s post is this. Much of the information makes no sense, and leaves far too many “paradoxes” of such, such as the agent’s Take the Shot (which, it would seem, would decrease the Ranged Initi., if it follows the “pattern.”) Not to mention that much of the “Crit buffing” information is inaccurate.

All you do is nerf the following classes:
Enforcers
Many engies
Many Adventurers
Many people who “go against the grain” and use things such as bows and melee weapons, even if their class isn’t “supposed” to use them in the cookie cutter mold of the game.

The only profession you will hardly nerf, however, is Martial Artists. Sure, they will feel the shaft, but they will not feel it very hard. It merely means that they can now hit for 1/1 on Full Defense. Most would prefer their 15% crit increase, though neither of the above professions have that “back down” ability to lesson the blow of the nerf.



--- Part One

[Ethernal (Mega)]

Despite this seemingly obvious misinformation in Gaute’s post, many people have followed the lead and agree with his claims. Many have valid points, though most of it holds very little to no water.

I also have a few other reasons on my own that warrant thought.

1) It hurts many professions that are currently balanced and don’t need a “shafting.” (i.e. Enforcers, Engies, Adventurers.)
a. Stemming from this, many professions that were not intended to do such, will start using more cookie cutter weapons.
b. A profession that already needs “love” at some levels will be further nerfed (engineers), when they just got “shafted” in 14.5.

2) The purpose of this nerf seems to be directed more towards martial artists than to enforcers, etc. Yet, it hurts Martial Artists the least, since they can just decide to go to full defense and hit 1/1, instead of 100% agro and hitting 1/1, while at the same time maintaining a rather high crit level.
3) Since you plan to decrease the Ranged Initive on the weapon, it appears that you are trying to boost some classes, while nerfing others.
4) Stemming from Number 3, if you are trying to make the game “harder” (maybe by making reds viable xp, instead?), then why are you decreasing the negative effects from a Low Light Targetting Scope to the majority of the game (Ranged Init. debuff decrease), while at the same time nerfing only 3 or 4 classes? Doesn’t that just decrease their group desirability, or something of the sort? It wouldn’t make the game “harder” if you’re boosting classes, while nerfing others. It would appear to stay the same.
5) Additional IP Reset points would need to be rewarded, which could create a logistics nightmare. This is NOT an option, assuming this nerf goes through, either, it is required.

Posted by Dhurdahl
YES!!!!


This sounds great!!! why? well it makes it much more logical and structured how thing work and are intended!

But Im actually surprised that you allow such a high % even after the "nerf"... Im used to normal RPG and there is a crit something that occures once in a blue moon, aka not something to rely on for damage.

How, many I inquire, does this “work as intended.” As it seems now, at least everyone has the equal chance to get the same crit chance, excluding MAs (and agents for a brief period of time), as it should be. Yet, instead, you are saying that melee classes, who are closer to the opponent, and perhaps should have a better chance at a crit, get LESS chance to crit? And it is not logical, as I stated before, the LLTS goes in the HUD Slot, i.e. your head, not a weapon.

Posted by Maximillian
Sounds like it could work. First of all, thanks for the first time giving out some 'real' solid numbers.

These are not real numbers, and I would like to once again clarify this. (Not trying to pick on you. )

Posted by nirax
i dont know what exactly will result out of all this, but i have a good feeling

To inform you, all it does is boost ranged users, while nerfing melee users. Doesn’t seem to be a very “fair” nerf.

Posted by Emperor Prozek
ELLTS: Will still be the same kind of Item you have today IF you are using a Ranged Weapon, Remember this is a SCOPE and was intended to be used as such.

It goes on your head.

[b]to all the Melee users out there: YES you can still use your scopes i belive, with your ICE flashpoints Alpha in pvp so stop yer Whining! the ELLTS will however NOT give you crittincrease when you remove it and go Melee. [b]

Please give me one profession, besides MAs (which this patch doesn’t really nerf, and VERY FEW do) that swaps out an IEC to alpha? No one… Besides, even if they did, it takes 15 seconds to remove the ELLTS, and the “nerf” is making it so you have –xxxx Melee/Phys initive, meaning that, you don’t lose the crit chance, you make your weapon hit every 10 seconds instead.


Lets Face it Fellow Gamers....Crittincrease in the Near 40-60 Range is plain Silly. I totally think FC is Justifying this change, for ONCE!

MAs are the only one who can achieve even a 49% crit chance rating, and that is assuming they have foreign buffs, plus have spent millions of credits on globes of clarity and a Low Light Targetting scope.

However FC i dont understand your thinking...

Give "Flurry of Blows" and "Eye of the Hunter" (Adv only version of FoB) a massive decrease on Long Range Initative
isnt it just easier to remove it from Ranged weapons alltogether?

Because that would require a new program line, which funcom doesn’t want to do.

2. Give Martial Artists Self Crit buffs a massive decrease on Long Range Initiative. (This does not affect bows, as they use Physical Prowess Initiative - same as the martial arts attack).
Here i would like to refer to MA description...

The Martial Artist is the master of unarmed combat, bows and thrown weapons. They shy away from the technological weaponry of their time, and prefer the spiritual teachings of ancient cultures.
Anyone REad Extreme Low Light Targeting Scope in there?? :P or ICE / Shotgun for that matter! This is how it was intended, Using ICE or such with UVC should be entitled Exploit of System Mechanics!!!

I do hope that that was sarcasm… Using a weapon that makes you better (and to be frank, I don’t think a shotgun wielding MA is very good.) is hardly an exploit of game mechanics.

Now then, to Conclusion:
Very nice Work Mr Godager, nowever i must note that there is one possible flaw in this...
In order for this to Be somewhat Equall to both Ranged and Melee users, you really need to Remove the Activation of Flurry and have it a Constant Active item just like the LLTS.

So, you want Melee Users to be critted to heck, all day long? Not to mention that it doesn’t even add a crit chance, just AGG/DEF.


so in conclusion Mr Godager, Make those 2 items similar with each other, just one for the ranged community, and one for the Close Combat community, place them in the Same Util Slot so Exploiting by using both will be cut down ( unless you switch in combat, but that takes time)

What’s the point of the nerf then?

SO this way All ranged users will feel nothing. All Melee users other than MAs will feel nothing ( since you have a LLTS called "Flurry of blows" that does jsut the same thing your old LLTS did, yes you have to sell your ELLTS and get a flurry i know=( ) And Exploiting MAs with ICEs gets a slap on the fingers ..Great!!


Then what’s the point of the nerf? Why not just keep it as it is, since FoB doesn’t increase the crit chance? You are saying that you should keep everything exactly the way it is. So, what’s your argument? I don’t see anything in there that makes sense. Oh, and MAs aren’t exploiting because they use ICEs. I’m sorry.

-Too tired to tear apart anymore posts, sorry, maybe tomorrow.



~Chris (AKA "Megabio")

[___________Firedrake]

Originally posted by Lucid Flow
Buckwheat? I stopped reading right there.

Wow, you are easy. I was going to go with Sparky, but Buckwheat just sounded better, glad to know I chose wisely.

Actually I do expect many to take my post seriously, especially those as fed up with nerfs as I am. Which seems to be a lot of folks.

As for addressing what you said logically, I did that, but apparently you were too busy nursing your hurt feelings. Oh well.

But to reiterate some key points, the LLTS is of itself not unbalancing, the easiest way to fix what FC appears to perceive as a problem is with a cap for crits, and nerfing is bad. mmmkay?

[DaveDread]

Let's stick to the subject, shall we?

[____________DocSmock]

For the class/weapon combo's getting the shaft, figure out which they are and allow them to /petition for an IP reset so they can go to a uneffected weapon skill. Surely a GM can see what skills have been run up and give succor to the poor shotgun MA's.

[Krabbus]

Originally posted by Gaute
We indicated in a discussion with you that we would like to change the existing Low Light Targeting Scopes to be similar to the new ones. This received MASSIVE negative feedback. Thus, we listen to you! We will not do it that way.

When I saw this I really thought u wasn't going to touch this, but instead, you are putting a huuuuge phys/melee init at the scopes? The first thread from Cz said they wasn't going to do this, but only reduce the crit and give some extra bonus. What happened to this. Please reread the comments from the players and count how many that want this huge phys/melee init penalty.

If you decide to do this, you are going to nerf:
- MA Engineers/doctors/traders
- Adventures using melee weapons
- Enforcers using melee weapons
- And all other professions using bows

That's about 50% of the population? That wasn't a bif nerf, was it? Please use your thinking box again - and don't forget to use it, or have you nerfed it?

[Resta]

I still dont get it whom it hurts? mele adventurers? Why? Explain plz?

Raiders, SOL, Byom all hav high attack time and need good mele initiate to hit. I dont know if any adventurers use scopes with this weapons.

Enforser? Give me a break new weapons like Modifed Queen Blade Modifed Rod Blood Bat all have high attack time so no scope.

Engi... well we can always give them new one engi only

[______________Lilbob]

once again, have you fellow engies noticed how FC once again seems to overlook our existence?

take a look into this post of how cz has replied to questions,

yes hes completely ignored anything we have asked, why do we even bother? is a question springing to many minds

i can tell you why we bother because this is the proffesion we chose to play as, and we despite how much we are kicked up the ass, thrown out of the door and just completely ignored will try as hard as we can to at least see our proffesion get better.

why i post this here?

this is the post that has killed any faith i had remaining that theres a light at the end of the tunnel for engies, FCs blatant ignorance has once again shown, and they are now going to leave a broken class in complete tatters.

my desciton from here on in:
i will support the engie cause till the day my account is poofed into thin air, i am one and always will be one, but as long as FC show they dont give a sh** about our class then there is no point depressing myself by playing it, so i have taken upon the hard desition to retire lilbob and play another char.

my 2 cents for FC: the way you act, anyone would think the engineer class was a mistake, why dont you go ahead give all the engineers different class chars of the same level with all there equipment and delete the class that you act like is a mistake that you try to cover up.

Vickie "Lilbob" Seisler
Freshman, Master Engineer(and i bloody earned it too )
Sitting in The Retirement home
Till they fix me!

[Resta]

Please give us IPR once you make nerfs in this game. When you make this change you basicaly screw up the set up that most characters used for many many lvls.

I am MA doctor who uses River Series for range. After nerf i will have to decide to stay MA or stay ranged. In any way i will be left with 5 maxed skills useless. If i decide to stay MA and use vivion enchancer i will have Ranged Ini, AR, SMG, AS, Weapon Smighting, Electronical Engeneering maxed and not used. If i decide to stay with ranged weapons i will have useless MA, Brawl, Parry, Psyhical Ini, Dimach.
In any way i need 5-6 IPR which i dont have.

This change is great i like it. I spend more then 8 month developing my doctor witht his change you leave me with gimped character and i am sorry i didnt know you will perfom nerfing so i used my IPR for this title.

[Cronost]

Hi all.
I'm a MA lvl 188 - Actually using UVC + 8% Scope
Resulting in 35% crit. I can increase my % to 39% with TTS and 40% with a Sabretooth or Grinning hunter... I'm also using a QL 150 FoB ( aprox 16% crit )

So my % ups to 56% during aprox 10 sec... Well I agree that's way too much... But I still die in mission, I still get owned by most of the class in pvp... The only think you guys can complain about is that we ( MA ) outdamage most of the other class... But we are supposed to be an offensive class right ? I mean, when I hear docs or trader complaining coz they got outdamaged by a lower MA, i'm lol...

Summing this together you get 62% for Martiial Artist and 49% for everyone else. This is WAY-WAY too high for the system to handle without changes.

Well... The nerf you propose wont decrease the % over all... That'll just slow the MA that want to use a "ranged init" weapon and the engie / Adv that use a scope. And will boost the non MA that use a shotgun or something else... I mean, the Docs that own me, will own me faster, likewise for the trader, fixer, soldier...

Well...two days ago I decided to spend almost 1M IP to equip a River 6...
> I have -280 in ranged init... about 600 Attack rate, i miss a lot and i'm damn slow ! In which way is that ubber ? Ok I crit a lot but I land 1 shoots on 2... Decreasing in some way my % rate to 20%...

I also used to fight without a scope... IMO that's better because with 900+ init you hit way faster, can effiency use a Parry Stick or down your aggro bar to 25%...

If you don't want MA to use a Scope or a ranged weapon that does decent dmg, just set a prof req on them... Because yeah... All bows does crappy dmg or have crappy range, have a small clip or are slow. And overall, contrary to other prof, we cannot efficiency use a QL 200 bow because we HAVE to self equip it and it's impossible for most of them !

> An alternative to your nerf...
--------------------------------------
Targeting Scope : Vision Enhancer & Low Light Targeting Scope
Wield :
Not Martial Artist.

River Series 6
Wield :
Not Martial Artist.

Flurry of Blows
Wield :
Enforcer or Engie.

Eye of the Hunter
Wield :
Adventurer.
--------------------------------------

Then Adv / Engie / Enforcer wont be nerfed ( they don't need to be imo )
Ranged Class won't be boosted, and MA's get the nerf that all "unique campers" want.

Well sorry, that post is kinda disordered, I tried to write a constructive post...

Last thing i'd ask you is to give us some extra IPR points...

[________________Empx]

Originally posted by Darkbane


Interesting, so your saying ranged weapons can never go below their base attack speed? I was thinking of melee weapons, as I'm pretty damn sure I've had the attack times on my riders slowed below the base 2.5s - I'll go check this tonight to find out for certain.

No.. thats what someone else said, and Im saying it wrong... your weapons CAN and DO go below their base attack speeds.

[______________Hayake]

some real world numbers.... did some testing with damage dumper:

lvl 197 team mission

Me: 197 MA, uvc + 14% scope + 1/1 attack speed +132 wrangles all the time: 880K damage inflicted

174 trader, home defender, tim scope, MoP, 1/1, ran 132s all mission : 550 K damage inflicted

164 fixer MCS, MoP, 1/1 tim scope, 132 wrangles :575K damage done

Now the way this program works, the traders and the fixers damage are actually a bit higher in reality as whenever they are out of my damage spam range their damage isn't included.

So we have me with 132 wrangles running and a 14% scope, 23 levels on the trader and 33 on the fixer doing about 30% more damage.

Doesn't seem that overpowering to me, for a class supposed to do the best damage over time.

Will do more tests though and post results.

However as a teaser... did some tests buffing myself with SG instead of uvc to simulate loss of crit scope when duoing a mission with a 192 MP.

Result: my damage and the damage the mp+ pet did were about the same. Considering the mp used a nova flow wo a crit scope, and my ma is completely built around doing damage....

anyone want to take a guess how I'm gonna fare against ranged weapon users near to my level that do use a crit scope?

will update in the near future

[aaronb]

Originally posted by Hayake

some real world numbers.... did some testing with damage dumper:

Hi Hayake,

Do you have the url for this tool somewhere handy? I'd be interested in playing around with it myself.

[____________Yeniferr]

CZ, you posted about an 11% crit speech? I have never seen this speech before? What is it called? I dont' see it in database either?