Gaute's word on LLTS and criticals

[Phione]

doh, I'm going to ask for Challenger being able to cast on others now... :P

[____________Meligant]

Originally posted by Bionitrous
Hehe ... and I'll have my Agent put 'Take the Shot' on you, Phione, and then you won't be able to swing at me.

Gotta love where this is heading. 'Massive melee init debuff for TTS'? Yeah right. You thought Adv's turning you into a bird in PvP was bad. Now they gonna buff your Crit chance and stop you from swinging.

1. You read my mind.

2. What if an agent actually wanted to make use of that uber "sneak attack" buff they have? Are there any guns that use sneak attack? hmmm. Guess not.

My opinion: Leave TTS alone or remove the crit chance from the nano and make a different one that doesn't stack with the MA one for agents. Adjust the NCU so it stays the same for both of the nanos combined as well.

PS - #1 would still be an issue since it would give agents the ability to cast a nano that has the same effect as a doc debuff (but has to be right clicked).

[____________Meligant]

CZ/G,

I'm scared by your thoughts that MOBs are "too easy" since you buffed the h*ll out of them in 12.6.

The solo game is almost gone now as it is. What next...an auto "Level X Prof LFT/LFG" spam message in all channels as I log in? TEAMING is already 7 times FASTER then SOLO for leveling!

[Resta]

Originally posted by Phione
Most of the weapon you mentioned is either too rare to obtain, or not even there. When looking at something that'd effect the whole AO population, which is exclusion of melee users from the Scopes (which includes LLTS, VE, and TIM), we must only take into account about the most commonly used weapons.

In this case, for Enforcers, is the Beam and Alloy/Pipe. (the reason for not mentioning Byom Blade is because of its insanely low Attack rating, caused by FC's unforseen mistake).

Some beam users uses a low % LLTS (VE gives nano init panalty), since they are able to swing at full speed with FoB+Rage. BUT, here comes the tricky part, it's only good for so on so time, and after FoB's init effect is gone, they'll left with just Rage, which isn't enough to get the Beam to 1/1.

However, when looking at high crit ranged weapon, or even the best weapons of Soldiers (Nova Flow, Div9, CHS), these weapons have both decent base damage as well as decent crit damage. Its fast speed allows the user to equip a higher % LLTS or VE while still maintaining 1/1 speed. RANGED ALREADY HAVE AN ADVANTAGE! CONSTANT CRIT CHANCE WITH FULL SPEED.

Not to mention 1hb enforcers, who'd suffer even worse if Scopes are taken away. Alloy/Pipe = junk without decent crit chance, and you're taking away the only way they can do damage.

Heh that why i want this weapons to be in game. And who said that LLTS not rare?

And show me soldier who can use atleast 11 LLTS with CHS....

[____________Psiraven]

I really don't get this article.

Let me see if I understand this right.

FC is proposing to nerf crit ratings for all melee users because a very, very small percentage of people have q200 15% targeting scopes and when these are "theoretically" stacked with a very very short term FoB that has a 1000 Fast Attack req they can get a 62% crit rating or 49% crit rating.

And due to this very small minority of players with crit scopes equipped AND q200 FoB's equipped (does this kind of player even EXIST?? all the Title 6 enforcers I know only use q140 FOB at best) Funcom believes that if it stayed in the game it would justify increasing the toughness of mobs across the board for the thousands of players without any of this uber stuff.

Ok.

Mr. Godager, solutions proposed are not going to work.

1) it still allows crits to stack for using Specials, intiatives don't effect that.

2) It is a pretty hard damage nerf to melee classes because an FOB is far from equal to an LLTS in terms of duration.

3) the solution is obviously messy. As you can see by the replies here, its not going to be taken well by the general populace and creates all sorts of complicated mechanical questions.

Here is a clean solution:

1) Remove llts completely from the game or nerf it down to 8%.

2) Cut the crit bonus from FOB in half.

3) Do not allow MoP and TTS to stack. Do not allow UVC and TTS to stack either.

This would basically leave the MA crit rating at 34% (44% in the short term if they used a q200 FoB which is impossible to equip anyway). And it would leave non-MA users at 18% (28% if they used an impossible to equip q200 FoB)

Leave intiatives alone.

Considering the feasibility of actually equipping an FOB, most everyone will only be able to use a q140-150 anyways.

Unless, FC plans on adding +200-300 Fast Attack buffs, the final crit percentages achievable will be around:

MA: 41%
Non-MA: 25%

[_______________Vyker]

I like it all the way around.

Puts things where they should be, a llts (yeah SCOPE) to help ranged attacks and not a crazed melee attack.

Sure it will help if they decided to burn a bunch of IP into some blue skills to get special attacks out of a ranged gun (ie. iec flashpoint and the ma's) But that's a choice they made to spend a ton of ip to get into a decent gun to do the dmg. And last time I checked they removed the crit chance on specials.

"But I'm an Engie/MA/Enf and now i'm nerfed!"

Use your pet Engie
Use your own crit buffs MA
Enf you have how many freakin hp's?!

Very nifty =)

Quote don't quote don't care this is my opinion and you can bash it around all ya want since that's your opinion.

have a nice day

[Mega^|3io]

Originally posted by Cz


Mega^|3io
Weren't you the one who sent one of us a message after losing your post count, telling the recipient to F... off? If so, that would be the reason. Stay nice, like here, and I won't ban you again.

---

If I'm not mistaken, it was /flip, not "F... you" So, people are allowed to have twenty blanked out words in their posts on a public access page, yet I can't even send a private message with /flip? Okay whatever you say.
~Chris

PS: Still forgetting that FoB doesn't even add crits anyway.

[Mega^|3io]

Originally posted by Vyker


"But I'm an Engie/MA/Enf and now i'm nerfed!"

Use your pet Engie
Use your own crit buffs MA
Enf you have how many freakin hp's?!

Use our pets? /me silently chuckles and runs away
~Chris

[Phione]

"Enf you have how many freakin hp's?! "

Enough to take 4 extra hits more than you guys.

[__________Lucid Flow]

Originally posted by Bionitrous
Lucid, you want an MA to put Mark of Risk on you in PvP so that you shoot every 20 seconds?

No. Mark of Peril was never included in Cz or Gauts explination of Ranged Init debuffs. The whole nano line would become useless.

But, it's a good point nobody brought up before you. If this is the case, they will be easily exploited in PVP as debuffs.

Even further reason to simply lower the crit% chance of ELLTS to max 8% and leave the rest alone.

[__________Lucid Flow]

Originally posted by Psiraven
Here is a clean solution:

1) Remove llts completely from the game or nerf it down to 8%.

2) Cut the crit bonus from FOB in half.

3) Do not allow MoP and TTS to stack. Do not allow UVC and TTS to stack either.

This would basically leave the MA crit rating at 34% (44% in the short term if they used a q200 FoB which is impossible to equip anyway). And it would leave non-MA users at 18% (28% if they used an impossible to equip q200 FoB)

Leave intiatives alone.

Considering the feasibility of actually equipping an FOB, most everyone will only be able to use a q140-150 anyways.

Unless, FC plans on adding +200-300 Fast Attack buffs, the final crit percentages achievable will be around:

MA: 41%
Non-MA: 25%

For lack of better reason, i'll say this.

Best Solution yet.

[Mega^|3io]

Alright, now that we got the short term stuff tolled away, time for the long one.

Cosmik
QL 200 FoB
Ok, I guess nobody can use a QL 200. Make it a QL 180, which would be about 18% crit, I think.

TimedEffect Wearer CriticalIncrease 20 15

So, either 15% crit increase for 20 seconds, or 20% crit increase for 15 seconds... Wow.. 15 seconds of critting every 2:30 seconds.

Funcom, why don't you guys just admit it? This is a PvP based nerf... If anyone has any misconceptions about this being a PvM based nerf, then, please, go finish taking whatever illegal item you are on and don't come back.

FoB vs LLTS
I don't think we ever said they were equal, or the same. They're of course not. One is (supposed to be) a constant firearm crit buff item, the other a short close combat crit buff.

Then why are you saying that this is our "replacement" for a low light targetting scope?

FoB making you open to crits
When you team, which most people do at high levels - high levels being when people can get these extreme crit chances - all the time, you losing evades is not so much of a problem as when you solo.

Have a Soldier pull off an alpha strike, or an Agent get in a nice Aimed Shot, and you won't have the mob hitting at you anyway; hence the evades going down means very little in this situation. And this is a situation which has to be considered.

Yes, as you should. A full team of 6 people should be able to kill a blood red mob. That is the purpose of teaming, is it not? We are supposed to be able to solo greens, and be able to solo yellows with a little risk, and a good deal of risk for oranges. If we can solo yellows, then a full team with a doctor, etc, should easily be able to deal with blood reds. Especially the way you designed your game -- you only gain about 100 extra points into skills after level 125.

As for scaling XP, well, level 250 Aces need to give about a million XP each. At the bare minimum...

Promise not to change the LLTS
Please give me a link to this. I remember the patch notes saying the old ones would stay. There might have been some word on not changing them, but I can't remember it.

"Treasure the ones that are already there..." (patch notes, 14.2, Try this link.... That would assume that they are still going to be in game, despite the elipses...

Scope being a HUD
Yes, it doesn't specify that a HUD can't help close combat. Neither is it given that anything you put on your head helps close combat as much as ranged.

Just a quick example: The HUD can be linked to your firearm (upon equipping), and gived you a crosswire in front of your eyes. Doing such on a weapon you can swing, or your hands, is hard indeed. Doing it on a weapon which hits where it points is easy (it's done in late 20th century helicopters).

Oh I give up... afterall, lead pipes and steal beams are some of the best weapons in the game.

__________________________________________________ __

(Still CZ, different thread.)

So, for Martial Artists:
3% + 22% (self buff) + 4% (misc, e.g 2 x GoC)
Total: 29%
With FoB QL150: 44%

For 15 seconds.

Non-MAs using close combat:
3% + 7% (MoP or crat speech) + 4% (misc, e.g 2 x GoC)
Total: 14%
With FoB QL130: 27%

For 15 seconds.


__________________________________________________ _
Another Cz post:

I do know Engineers get hit quite a bit by this, but wouldn't it be more logical that they rely on their bot, rather than being killing machines themselves?

Alright, for ONE MOMENT let us assume this is a PvM nerf as they say it is. For one, it isn't like we can use pets in PvM (Pathing.) If they fixed pathing, 600 damage every 3 seconds won't make up for our lost crit damage. They did pitiful damage compared to our critting martial arts.

Now, as far as PvP is concerned (as this nerf is based on PvP, not PvM), engineers already use their pets in PvP, and are just barely able to hang on as it is. So, all you do is lower our damage in PvP by 2/5ths, nothing else.

(ps: Did I mention that every pet, MP (Animaed or not), and Crat (trimmed -- they hit faster) pets hit harder than Engy pets?)

__________________________________________________ __

I would also like to add that no, I don't think people run around with these buffs all the time. But also remember that only a few run around with the 15% LLTS. These are about potential numbers, not average numbers for the average Joe

I can assure you that 90% of the people who want a LLTS above level 161 have one.

__________________________________________________ __

Anyway, /yawn

We're talking to a wall. They won't change it, it's already set in stone. Surprised that we whined enough to change their "nerf them to 8%" attitude.

~Chris

[Phione]

I just don't want to get nerfed out the 8% I have right now, is that a bad thing?
Of course, if you want to gimp 1hb enforcers on purpose, I can just use my 75% EoT... But what about the rest of the enf population??? You're forgetting them...

[ragingsyph1]

"I guess those which it is unacceptable for are primarily the Enforcers and melee Adventurers, right? Why is it unacceptable? Would these numbers be acceptable if ranged users had only the TS-VE available?
(No, that is not another suggestion for removing the LLTS. I'm just asking questions to learn more from you people. )"

make the MA crit buff other line applicable only to ma and melee. voila! non-MA meleeusers are closer to even footing with ranged weapon users

[Chronita]

Originally posted by Cz

FoB making you open to crits
When you team, which most people do at high levels - high levels being when people can get these extreme crit chances - all the time, you losing evades is not so much of a problem as when you solo.

Have a Soldier pull off an alpha strike, or an Agent get in a nice Aimed Shot, and you won't have the mob hitting at you anyway; hence the evades going down means very little in this situation. And this is a situation which has to be considered.

pls pls pls also consider the solo game as well. believe it or not, some ppl actually like to do this. true its a very slow way to lvl at the higher levels, but that doesnt mean it should totally be forgotten. the evade loss certainly does hurt when you are on your own, fighting a vet/RM melee type and i'm sure you dev types know how much altering the aggro bar means in PvP too. . .

the best thing IMO would be to remove the agg/def bonus on FoB. you can compensate it if you want with more init bonus, that way you get the same effect with no evade hit that the agg/def brings with it.


and just for fun, my current crit solution -

1) do NOT use init penalties on the crit stuff, instead just fix the code so that some work for melee only and some for ranged. messing with inits will not solve any alpha strike crit chances and as bio stated will cause all sorts of init debuffing silliness.

2) UVC line melee only

3) All scopes ranged only, and have a max crit mod of 10ish

4) FoB changed to static crit mod of 15ish for ql200 when equipped, look into changing FA reqs on them, speed bonus when "using" the FoB is the same or better, add phys init bonus, and remove the agg/def bonus.

5) TTS ranged only

6) Mark line and crat speech ok for both ranged and melee, but only 1 on at a time.

MA - 3% + 24%(UVC) + 15%(FoB) = 42%

melee - 3% + 15%(FoB) + 7% (mark/speech) = 25%

ranged - 3% + 10%(scope) + 7%(mark/speech) +4%(TTS) = 24%

two issues for me still with this plan - 1) crit amounts still too high? (if so adjust the numbers a bit on FoB and scope) and 2) FoB too good this way? maybe introduce a new item that gives the crit bonus similar to the scopes that does not have the functionality of the FoB, and remove crit mod from FoB.

[Nugget]

Maybe Gaute knows one of them level 200 opifex MAs with

Maxed Fast attack skill
Maxed Abilities
Ql200 set of Fast attack implants
Ql200 set of Agility implants
Ql200 set of sence implants (none of the implant set conflict)
Fast attack gen buff
FFoK
Agility gen buff
Sence gen buff
Felines Grace
Enhanced Sences
Ql200 Personalized robotic brain
Ql200 Kirch Kevlar Arms *2
Ql200 So8 Helmet
Ql200 So8 Pants
Very Very Very Cool Top
Ql200 Boots of Azure reveries
Ql200 Gloves of Azure reveries
Captain of Tir Ring (or the better rings) *2 (unfortnatly unique, but exploitable)
Rat catcher gogles (+6 sence)
Wielding a Master G-staff

Surely there has to be a good 500 of those MAs running around using ql 200 FoB. All though that G-staff will cramp the damage output



(Unfortunatly That only leaves them with one hell of an equipping problem but they'll get 787 agility, 738 sence and be able to run around with 989 fast attack

But heck, surely with the refined implants they can squeeze in the last few points)

[Isgrimnur]

Originally posted by Psiraven
I really don't get this article.

Let me see if I understand this right.

FC is proposing to nerf crit ratings for all melee users because a very, very small percentage of people have q200 15% targeting scopes and when these are "theoretically" stacked with a very very short term FoB that has a 1000 Fast Attack req they can get a 62% crit rating or 49% crit rating.

And due to this very small minority of players with crit scopes equipped AND q200 FoB's equipped (does this kind of player even EXIST?? all the Title 6 enforcers I know only use q140 FOB at best) Funcom believes that if it stayed in the game it would justify increasing the toughness of mobs across the board for the thousands of players without any of this uber stuff.

Ok.

Mr. Godager, solutions proposed are not going to work.

1) it still allows crits to stack for using Specials, intiatives don't effect that.

2) It is a pretty hard damage nerf to melee classes because an FOB is far from equal to an LLTS in terms of duration.

3) the solution is obviously messy. As you can see by the replies here, its not going to be taken well by the general populace and creates all sorts of complicated mechanical questions.

Here is a clean solution:

1) Remove llts completely from the game or nerf it down to 8%.

2) Cut the crit bonus from FOB in half.

3) Do not allow MoP and TTS to stack. Do not allow UVC and TTS to stack either.

This would basically leave the MA crit rating at 34% (44% in the short term if they used a q200 FoB which is impossible to equip anyway). And it would leave non-MA users at 18% (28% if they used an impossible to equip q200 FoB)

Leave intiatives alone.

Considering the feasibility of actually equipping an FOB, most everyone will only be able to use a q140-150 anyways.

Unless, FC plans on adding +200-300 Fast Attack buffs, the final crit percentages achievable will be around:

MA: 41%
Non-MA: 25%

Good comments, I would furthur add this:

Flurry needs a total reworking as a viable item for melee users. I rarely use it when I am in teams because it only lasts like 15sec and the crit chance isn't worth the crits I take. Also as an adventurer I am usually healing too. IMO making some crit only items for enf/adv might help out.

My advent uses a Ql250 VE. Now that 8% crit helps a lot. Cz I want you to realize how impossible it is for most advents to use that 15% scope with melee. Most don't even use the 8% because it slows us down so much. Also melee range is so crappy that 41% bonus gives me about 1m extra, makes a wee bit of a difference in missions with big rooms.

I totally disagree with the init penalty thing in buffs/items. Making ranged users have even more advantage? Ranged have advantage in just that they can hit from a distance, they have specials that do 10k damage.

[Mercatura]

Promise not to change the LLTS
Please give me a link to this. I remember the patch notes saying the old ones would stay. There might have been some word on not changing them, but I can't remember it.

It was in the "XX.X patch notes" forum. You know, the one that gets deleted or removed when each new patch comes out. The one that gets locked a week or 2 after a big patch.

Real convenient when things are said in the temporary forums section

[__________Lucid Flow]

Originally posted by Mercatura
It was in the "XX.X patch notes" forum. You know, the one that gets deleted or removed when each new patch comes out. The one that gets locked a week or 2 after a big patch.

Real convenient when things are said in the temporary forums section

No Mec, no PROMISE was ever made. The notes say this:

-New version of Low Light Targeting Scope has been made. This has no night-vision effect, and a lower critical increase buff. The old one will no longer drop, but will stay in the game. Treasure the ones already there...

It says clearly the old ones will stay, but nowhere does it say "We promise the old ones will stay" or anything to that effect.

[_______FrostGigas/LS]

2. Give Martial Artists Self Crit buffs a massive decrease on Long Range Initiative. (This does not affect bows, as they use Physical Prowess Initiative - same as the martial arts attack).

Quoted From Gaute


Um, are you blind? Everyone knows that no bow, oter than pow bow (which sux) does not use physical inits. Somone else has probly already said this, but I'm not reading all the posts, and even so. It should be said again. You are either flat out lying, or you just have no concept of what your game is actually like. I'm not really complaining about the nerf, don't care much. But if you are gonna act like bows are viable for MA's, well you damn well better follow up on that. Bows are not viable save for an alphastrike. Some bows even use melee init, i mean wtf is that? I just maxed ranged init so i could use my Reet-tech junior crossbow. that was a lot of IP, i shouldntr have had to spend- LS

Oh, and I won't be suprised if I am banned from the forums, so go ahead.