Breed balance via Nano/Heal Delta

[Obtena]

Whatever the changes, I'm thinking that regardless of profession, the breed difference for HP and nanopool should be in the 1000's.

For example, endgame nanomage shoudl have about 4K more nano and about 4K less HP than a Trox, with Solitus in the middle and opifex somewhere below Solitus nano and HP stats. Of course, we have to see what FC decides to do, but I think that would render some professions with a significant enough difference in stats.

There is still the issue of delta tick. I think people are delusional when they think every breed should get 2 second tick. It should be HARD to get that tick. Those tick values are a remnant of pre-SL if I understand correctly. It's doesn't even translate to the current game. I can see why people don't want it changed. They want easymode.

[Dreamer]

Im in disagreement about Opi and Solitus getting "stuck in the middle" - It should also take into account profession.
I dont see why those two breeds should be kept out of any advantage, whilst not at a disadvantage, i'd rather have some ability to compliment my toolset on opi/solitus characters.

The thing about looking at rebalancing as a bunch of separate issues is all the 'fixes' dont consider each other in turn.

It just screams a whole new world of cookie cutter setups with one breed dominating some professions. I'd rather balance an area rather than a segment of an area.
Starting with evades. After evades, take a look at this ND/HD topic.
If you do it the other way around, you'll have less effective evades for opifex/solitus because on atrox evade profs - HD will cover the hits you recieve. And the soli/opi wont have the survivability to compete.

[Obtena]

That's bull ... there are alot of other things the breeds will offer in perks to make up for whatever diversity is offered in ND/HD.

[alderwaran]

That's bull ... there are alot of other things the breeds will offer in perks to make up for whatever diversity is offered in ND/HD.

for example? if i get you right an atrox doc could overcome his low(er) nanopool and ncr by perking mongo-rage?

[Obtena]

Yeah that's EXACTLY what I meant.

[alderwaran]

no really, tell me.

[Obtena]

Really? OK. Certain effects in the breed based perks are good. In fact good enough to overlook any difficiency you may have from combining that prof with a breed that may seem nonsense. Example? My TL4 NT twink is a Trox, simply because of Wit. So no, all this talk about 'cookie cutter setup' is rather stupid. If people can't see past a single aspect, that's not reason to call for FC to change or nerf something. Nothing is being changed in a bubble here.

[alderwaran]

yes, ok i see.
those 360(?) dodge are quite high for such a low perk, but do they really give anyone a *significant* advantage over other breeds?
most important: its like talking about programs, tuning tips for computers and the like - everyone assumes windows is the running operating system... what kind of twink are you talking about? pvp or heckler kiter in ely?
in addition we are mainly talking about end-game setup and especially as the title says about "corrections" of hd/nd for specific breeds. your tl4 trox nt as much as any other breeds tl4 nt's dont have much difference in hd or nd (unless twinked in one specific direction, gimping all other aspects) and the source of the nano all those nt's need is in no way their natural regeneration rate.

since i played a 220/70/30 trox doc i mainly have arguments for this specific combo, and i can tell why i wouldnt like to have his nd downed, cause thats whats meant with "corrected", in any way.
i chose trox because doctors have two choices of pvm weaponary: ma and pistol. since i thought "doctors need hp to survive aggro" trox was the best choice because he could wear cm which gives very nice hp and ma-weapon-of-choice stats AND on top of that shens would give a nice hp-boost. in addition ma is very likely to interrupt nukers which i found a nice feature on my 220/70/28 melee trox adv.
so i did that an it worked mostly quite well, killing lotv, lhand, rhand, raids, you name it.
problems arised when there was no nt, mp or even trader in team on little raids like db2 or alptraum, or when mobs sucked my nanopool empty like at arid.. it is a difference if you have 55% ncr or just 45%, the latter means with an empty nanopool you just have to wait longer to cast the next heal.
then i needed some 130k vp to get buffing ofab for those nice alpha symbs, doc helmet, prof ring and as malp came out even my pvm melee doc could kill and be useful on battlestation not only meched up but running around healing and hurting (*)... but with only 2 points of max nano per 1 point of skilled nanopool and only 45%ncr malp sucked me empty like [censored] just because everyone in bs is wearing 500nr on his pinky and due to the fact that ao's pvp is purely based on specials and perks so everyone is full def and malp doesnt hit like everytime and has to be casted very very often to get the effect.

in the end, as i got my vp and was about to put in alphas i resetted ma and skilled pistol because i recognized i'd be better off with dreadloch pistols because of the oh-so-needed additional 35nd.
thats it. "extreme" breed choices already force you to make sacrifices - no need to further fu them up.


(*) just for the record, because i feel the urgent need to spread the hate still boiling in me: as you may have recognized i wrote about my high level toons in the past - thats because i deleted them, all, a year ago. my doc and the gth-experience beeing one of the straws on the camels back. fc, if you fu players like that, repeadedly, someone else will get the money (and i'm talking about €, not flimsy $ )

[Obtena]

yes, ok i see.
those 360(?) dodge are quite high for such a low perk, but do they really give anyone a *significant* advantage over other breeds?

Yes

[alderwaran]

Yes

dear admins, excuse the full quote here but scnr.

so does the humongous amount of temporary evades from this perk justify a crippled nd at 220 for every profession with atrox breed?

[Obtena]

Crippled ND? I knew this was a shallow attempt to troll.. No one is suggesting to cripple anything. Are you crippled before you get 2 second ticks while leveling? NO, you aren't, so stop the stupidity.

[XenonDe]

Well, you aren't exactly spamming a lot of 1553 and 1975 and 4000 Nanocost heavy nanos before your 2 second tick rate so that comparison is kinda meh. From an atrox docs point of view a nerf of their nanodelta while boosting other breeds nanodelta in comparison is exactly that.. a cripple of nanodelta.

I'd like changes to the delta mechanism just as much but every suggestion that has been in this thread so far would hurt trox doctors bigtime, so you can't be really surprised they are opposed to this.

[Obtena]

You know what I think of that? Too bad really. You want a trox doc, there should be some sigificant implication to being trox doc and they shouldn't all be positive. Right now there isn't much downside to any breed/prof pairing. It comes down to shopping for the breed perks that you want for the toon you are rolling. That's a shallow game design and it's also unreasonable. You can get that kind of dumbed-down design from other more crap games. AO can and should be more complex because that complexity is part of it's appeal.

[XenonDe]

But that Breed versatility has been in the game for a long time now. And it's getting changed a lot by the breed perk already. The versions in the draft make a huge difference. Wait to see how they play out before messing around before changing breed balance further by nerfing some breed combinations.

I kinda like seeing opi docs, nm soldiers, trox MPs and soli NTs instead of just the cookie cutter breeds as well. That is already impacted by the upcoming breed perks (which is a good thing).

[Obtena]

... and none of that will go away if any one of those setups doesn't maintain a 2 second HD/ND tick at TL7.

[erozc]

Hey, here's an idea. Make it so that no trox can get under 4 sec nanodelta tick, but 2 sec heal delta is quite easy plus additional buff for the tick value. Same in reverse for the nanogimps. Solitus can reach 3/3 with average tick values.

Opifex don't get any ticks or deltas at all because they're too skinny anyway.

So, after this thought game, what would change? Is it just that we'd see less of those fat ugly docs and NTs, and less of those skinny enfos? Or would we see them for different reasons than currently?

[XenonDe]

... and none of that will go away if any one of those setups doesn't maintain a 2 second HD/ND tick at TL7.

Thing is hotshot.. If you have one breed, say nanomage with a 2 second nanodelta tick rate and superior perks for one profession and another breed, say atrox with a nerfed 4 second tick rate and mostly useless breed perks... you can bet your arse they will go away because that combination looses out too much on the disadvantages. It may not be as drastic for every profession but for casting professions that require a lot of nano, those drastic differences will make a world of difference.

Some 150 trox prof having the abillity to perk some xyz perk for ownage on the level 150-180 levels does not justify having a currently working breed prof combination rendered utterly uncompetitive in the endgame.

I really do like the idea of changing around the nano-/healdelta mechanism but nerfing some breed in one aspect as drastically as that while having breed perks that already heavily favor some breeds for profession types is to soon. Wait and see how the breed perks play out before fiddling around with that.

[Demoder]

I have no idea where you get the numbers from.
Regardless, this thread is about the general idea, not the specific numbers.
If you use examples of numbers that won't work as an argument against the idea, you're doing it wrong. Come with numbers which would work instead.

[XenonDe]

The numbers are pretty much from the latest pages of this thread. I wasn't directing it at your original post, and I do apologize for not clarifying. Like I said, I do like your idea of revamping the way nano delta and heal delta work. At this stage though nerfing some breeds delta to the extent of some suggestions in this thread is premature. Wait till the breed perk are finalized. Even if we would manage to find just the right ratio of delta between the breed that balance is soon to change with the revamp of the perks.

I believe I posted on the first page that the maximum difference in ratio between the profs is a factor of 1.5, making atrox regain at maximum 1.5 times the health as solis and nanomages a maximum of 1.5 times the nano - Be it done by increasing the delta or changing the tickrate.
And even those are pretty powerful numbers. Some values posted in the thread result in double the regeneration rates as the opposed breed, and for the heavy nanocost caster classes that will result in one breed only, or you loose. That's not entirely desireable.

[Obtena]

Thing is hotshot.. If you have one breed, say nanomage with a 2 second nanodelta tick rate and superior perks for one profession and another breed, say atrox with a nerfed 4 second tick rate and mostly useless breed perks... you can bet your arse they will go away because that combination looses out too much on the disadvantages.

Yeah? So what? I mean, I don't see you up in arms that there aren't alot of opifex doctors for example, but if atrox doctors had a different balance, you make it sound like the sky would fall in.

The fact is pretty straight forward ... even with the currently MINIMAL impact of breed/prof pairs, there are STILL preferred breeds for most professions. You can't just say changing HD/ND will destroy whatever diversity you think exists. While your whole premise is that such a change would reduce diversity, I challenge the whole idea that there is much diversity in the current game anyways. If ND/HD had some dependence on breed/prof pairs, it would simply reflect the fact that those pairs actually have meaning and impact on the game. You don't want cookie cutter? It's what you have now where everyone gets all the same HD/ND stats. OK, you might LOOK like a trox, but when your stats start looking like NM, you have to ask yourself why that difference exists because it's not realizing itself in the game as it should be. It's just nonsense.