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Thread: Breed balance via Nano/Heal Delta

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyldebeast View Post
    Any system where sitting down to passively outheal an attackers damage is a viable tactic is just wrong and in need of change. The HD (and ND) system we have now is in need of work.
    Bump, I complete agree with you.

    You should have -2000 AAD when sitting. And the animation of whoever attacks you should be "kicking your teeth".

  2. #22
    There's a good argument for getting all of the games mechanics changes done at the same time as the rebalancing. If you rebalance - and then change basic games mechanics at a later time, then all that character rebuilding that will have to be done after the rebalancing could easily need to be redone again with the later changes in mind.

    The rebalancing itself can be affected too... so for example, local cool-downs on nanos and changes to effect durations are likely to affect how often different types of nano are cast. It's highly likely that they'll need to adjust the nanocosts for those nanos. So they need to have a view on how much nano is available and how fast it can be recouped.... if changes to Nano Delta and breed effects on nano are to be implemented, it's best that that implementation is done at the same time as the changes to the nanos, so that the values aren't all wrong when the nano delta changes hit.

    Whatever happens, these rebalancing changes are going to represent a huge shift in the game. There is so much planned change in so many different areas - many of them basic games mechanics ones - that the entire shape of the game will change. Leaving parts of the equation out to be addressed later only builds more risk in... not less.

    The biggest risk of making it a big patch as they plan to, is the testing process and the workload on quality control - but they've decided to go with the one huge rebalancing patch approach, so they'll probably essentially treat it like an expansion and beta test it.

    Finally, of course, they'll be building in a single total IPR for the rebalancing patch. You really don't want to have gone through that and rebuilt based on the rebalancing... and then find that they're changing something as basic as Nano and Heal delta later on. Much better that as much of the change can be done at once.

    By the way, last I heard, FC had said that the balance patch will come first and then later the graphics engine patch.

    X

  3. #23
    The beauty of anarchy-online is dieversity, Atrox Doctors, Atrox nts, Nanomage Soldiers and Enforcers.
    Uniqe and fun shouldn't be totally gimped.

    As a nanomage soldier I say no to changes like these, It will make me change my breed into a cookiecutter Atrox, no thanks.
    Last edited by Geezwhat; Apr 27th, 2010 at 16:16:54.
    Geez take it Eeez son.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Mailana View Post
    Yes!~

    Nerf healdelta and nanodelta for tl7 (requiring full ipr and alpha retwink, and probably breed change to cookiecutter breed for your prof, just to get halfway back to where you already were), preferably right when the new engine and rebalance go live. If history taught us anything, it taught us that there will be horrible bugs and crashes for awhile from the new engine, and that the rebalance will be anything but for a few months while they match up theory with reality. Perfect time to make the game require more micromanagement and pointless retwinking sessions.

    We should be able to reduce the playerbase by at least 80% if we do it all at the same time. Our new targeted customer is someone so stupid and apathetic they wont complain when you swap in steel wool for their cotton candy.

    The old nerf hd/nd threads were pure nerfbegging, clever to make it seem like this thread was about lower tls.
    If changes to Heal/Nano delta are to ever be implemented, the "huge rebalancing" patch(es) would be the right place to do so.
    My suggestion isn't about making cookiecutter setups. It's about making the breed choice mean something.

    This suggestion is mainly to make HD/ND viable at all levels.
    If you feel it would ruin TL7 HD/ND, please come with constructive feedback, preferably with suggestions on how to tweak the numbers in the OP.
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  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Geezwhat View Post
    As a nanomage soldier I say no to changes like these, It will make me change my breed into a cookiecutter Atrox, no thanks.
    If this claim is valid, the suggested values in the OP needs to be tweaked.

    My goal is to make it more penalized on the nano side to choose a brute for nanocasting classes. Currently, there's virtually no downside (Nanodelta wise) to choosing Atrox over Nanomage.
    My goal is NOT to flip a switch and make all enfs,soldiers roll Atrox, all NTs and Docs roll Nanomage.

    Any suggestions?
    Last edited by Demoder; Apr 27th, 2010 at 16:45:40.
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  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Demoder View Post
    If this claim is valid, the suggested values in the OP needs to be tweaked.

    My goal is to make it more penalized on the nano side to choose a brute for nanocasting classes. Currently, there's virtually no downside (Nanodelta wise) to choosing Atrox over Nanomage.
    My goal is NOT to flip a switch and make all enfs,soldiers roll Atrox, all NTs and Docs roll Nanomage.

    Any suggestions?

    With your current post this is exactly what will happen, every soldier, enforcer, etc. (Basicly those who want HD) need to switch to Atrox.

    I would rather see HD/ND kept as it is and change the breed perks, nanocosts and so on.
    Geez take it Eeez son.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Geezwhat View Post
    With your current post this is exactly what will happen, every soldier, enforcer, etc. (Basicly those who want HD) need to switch to Atrox.

    I would rather see HD/ND kept as it is and change the breed perks, nanocosts and so on.
    So you don't really have an issue with the general idea; Just that the specific numbers are wrong. Okay. We're getting somewhere here.

    If there was a 200hp/minute difference between Solitus and Atrox, would a soldier choose Atrox?
    If so.. I wonder why they choose Solitus in the first place; What strengths Solitus have over Atrox, which made Solitus a better choice.
    Was it a free choice, meaning there was no real drawback to going Solitus over Atrox (minimal loss in max hp) - and still getting benefits from abilities?

    Edit: I'm trying to get a discussion going on how to tweak the numbers in the OP so that we don't get cookiecutter setups, but still making the player have to sacrifice something (more than the difference in abilities & MaxNano/MaxHP pool) to get the benefits of a given breed. (insert the rest of the goals from OP here)
    Last edited by Demoder; Apr 27th, 2010 at 18:28:34.
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  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Demoder View Post
    [*]Heal & Nano delta should be viable at all levels. (Currently, many people ignore these modifiers untill high levels, because they're so weak they're not even relevant at lower levels)
    Agreed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Demoder View Post
    [*]Your breed choice should affect how much your Heal and Nano deltas help you, at all levels. (Because this is in line with their strengths and weaknesses)
    Agreed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Demoder View Post
    [*]Incrementing your MaxHealth should be beneficial to your health regain rate. (In addition to making sense (imo), this would slightly reduce the effect of more hp = worse in PvP)[*]Incrementing your MaxNanoPool should be beneficial to your nano regain rate.
    I disagree, for me the disparity between obtainable hitpoints/nanopool between different professions&setups is too big to make the healdelta scale (linearly anyways) depending on hitpoints/nanopool. With your example:

    Examples:
    • Heal Delta ammounts
      • A toon with 10 000 MaxHealth without nano programs to buff, will have a HealDelta ammount of 050 + all HealDelta modifiers.
      • A toon with 20 000 MaxHealth without nano programs to buff, will have a HealDelta ammount of 100 + all HealDelta modifiers.
      • A toon with 60 000 MaxHealth without nano programs to buff, will have a HealDelta ammount of 300 + all HealDelta modifiers.

    HealDelta per breed example, 60 000 HP, +125 HealDelta modifiers
    • Atrox enf: ((60000/200)+125)/3 = (300+125)/3 = 425/3 -> 8500 HP/min
    • Nanomage squishy: ((15000/200)+125)/4 = (70+125)/4 = 200/4 -> 3000 HP/min[/b]
    • For reference: The top fixer long hot heals 2904 hpm. Current healdelta on most professions heals about 4500hpm.



    Comparing to the current mechanic
    An atrox which has 16000 HP, half of which from body dev today, and +125 HealDelta modifiers will get (8000/4/100)+125 = (20 + 125) = 145 HealDelta ammount. At a 2s tick, that's 4350 hpm.
    A solitus which has 14000 HP, 6k from body dev today, and +125 HealDelta modifiers will get (6000/3/100)+125 = (20 + 125) = 145 HealDelta ammount. At a 2s tick, that's the same as atrox.
    Atrox and solitus will have the same amount of body dev, but atrox gets more hp for each point, there is no difference on the heal delta numbers. Currently breed only affects who gets faster tick rates earlier on the level curve, after the cap has been reached there is at most a difference of 1 healdelta between atrox and nanomage.
    "Neutnet relay: [PvM] *220 bureaucrat*: Starting 12man, need Enfo, Doc, Keeper, reflects."
    "Neutnet relay: [PvM] *220 doctor*: Looking for crat/keep/enf for 12m pst "
    "Neutnet relay: [PvM] *220 soldier*: still need doc/enf for 12 man. pst
    "Neutnet relay: [PvM] LF enfo , crat , doc and soldier's for ipande / pst [220 doctor]"

  9. #29
    The only way a Atrox Enf get anywhere near 60k hp is with one of the Essence nanos, right?
    This is the exact reason I excluded HP/Nanopool obtained from nanoprograms in the calculation.

    And for that with atrox/solitus getting different HP from BodyDev; I am aware. I was trying to point at the fact that an atrox, whom gets more HP for the same ammount of BodyDev, does not get more HealDelta.. which I think they should. In hindsight, the point was not even remotely as clear as I had hoped.
    Last edited by Demoder; Apr 27th, 2010 at 20:56:31.
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  10. #30
    The argument has merit.

    I'm not sure I agree though, but only because most of the toons I play are almost 100% dependant on the HD mechanisms for staying alive.

    I think balance so far has been SO integrally combined with the HD mechanism that it would be throwing caution to the wind to mess with it.

  11. #31
    ..why don't we just give everyone a 500k HD/ND tick and everyone gets a 1s tick at level 1?


    /end sarcasm
    SOMEBODY PUT SOMETHING IN MY DRINK!

    Lilsneaky - 216 Opi Agent - Endgame Coming Soon!

    Proud Squad Commander of Carpe Nox Noctis

  12. #32
    so much fixer hate
    Quote Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich View Post
    considering how many ranged advies omni has, clan did quite a job.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ciex View Post
    Ive rolled NT and rarely make it longer than 3-4s vs fixers.
    Talking whats OP and whats not by people who have never really played so told OP profession is just lame.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by BodomBeachTerror View Post
    ..why don't we just give everyone a 500k HD/ND tick and everyone gets a 1s tick at level 1?


    /end sarcasm
    Because that would be "slightly" overpowered?
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  14. #34
    Oh right lets take the last tiny bit of fun out of PvP. And make opifex even more obsolete.
    I wonder if people think any further or just share every sudden idea because it hasn't been posted before.
    Last edited by Lisergia; Jul 16th, 2010 at 07:54:09.

  15. #35
    Scaling peoples healdelta with their max hp (as well as with any healdelta modifiers) is one step towards removing the 40% hit cap in PvP.
    How is that ruining PvP?
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  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Lisergia View Post
    Oh right lets take the last tiny bit of fun out of PvP. And make opifex even more obsolete.
    I wonder if people think any further or just share every sudden idea because it hasn't been posted before.
    OK that's just stupid. HD/ND makes PVP fun and changing it will ruin opifex in PVP? LAWL.

    What's wrong with HD/ND? IMO, the problem is that it's complete breed dependent. There's also something wrong when EVERY endgame setup gives a 2 second tick. Dumb trox enfos, stupidest profession in the game get 2 second nano tick. REALLY?!?! That actually makes sense to some people? Obviously they aren't being objective.

    The nano characteristics could be a combination of breed and profession. The tick value should be scaled by profession and level and whatever implants, gear you have added on top (NT high, soldier low for example), the time should be fixed by breed from level 1 to 2. (2 seconds for NM, 4 for trox). The base amount should also scale by breed. The base nanopool stay the same (based on nanopool, trickle from psychic).

    The HP characteristics should be similar scheme.
    Last edited by Obtena; Aug 9th, 2010 at 15:50:33.
    Awwww muffin, need a tissue?

  17. #37
    Leave the tick rate alone.

    just change the HD/ND modifier by small amount

    Atrox HD +25
    Solitus HD +15
    Nanomage HD +5
    Opi HD +0

    Nanomage ND +25
    Solitus ND +15
    Opi ND +10
    Atrox ND +0

    So for example if an Atrox sitting down get +125 HD heal every 2 second, and Opi will get +100 heal eveyr 2 sec only.

    It is not significant, but just make a reason to go different breed if the player want to go very specialize
    Ceenah 220/30/66 PvM NT @ Newcomers Alliance
    Eeenah 199/0 Froob NT @ Newcomers Alliance

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Obtena View Post
    OK that's just stupid. HD/ND makes PVP fun and changing it will ruin opifex in PVP? LAWL.

    What's wrong with HD/ND? IMO, the problem is that it's complete breed dependent. There's also something wrong when EVERY endgame setup gives a 2 second tick. Dumb trox enfos, stupidest profession in the game get 2 second nano tick. REALLY?!?! That actually makes sense to some people? Obviously they aren't being objective.

    The nano characteristics could be a combination of breed and profession. The tick value should be scaled by profession and level and whatever implants, gear you have added on top (NT high, soldier low for example), the time should be fixed by breed from level 1 to 2. (2 seconds for NM, 4 for trox). The base amount should also scale by breed. The base nanopool stay the same (based on nanopool, trickle from psychic).

    The HP characteristics should be similar scheme.
    the possibility for every class to get 2 second ticks is so that all classes are viable ot play as all professions.
    or do u want to see only NM NTs/Docs/crats only trox enfs etc.
    Moonbolt - 220/26/something. Trox Enf RK1 General of Hells Heroes.
    Renswind - 220/21/67 solitus trader.
    Moonkiss - 219/21/something opifex shade.
    Mooncloud - 150/18/somethin solitus MA.

  19. #39
    Ridiculous .. you could EASILY play any class with any breed, regardless of having or not having 2 second ticks. And regardless ... I think that's the whole POINT of having the differences.
    Last edited by Obtena; Aug 10th, 2010 at 01:56:55.
    Awwww muffin, need a tissue?

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Moonbolt View Post
    the possibility for every class to get 2 second ticks is so that all classes are viable ot play as all professions.
    or do u want to see only NM NTs/Docs/crats only trox enfs etc.
    I think it's pretty sad that you consider something "not viable" if it doesn't have a 2s deltas. What do you do before you have these ticks? Sit in ely kite team?
    Waiting for a cure.

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