Breed balance via Nano/Heal Delta

[Demoder]

The Idea

• Heal & Nano delta should be viable at all levels. (Currently, many people ignore these modifiers untill high levels, because the combination of long tick rates + low delta amounts makes it more or less worthless)
• Your breed choice should affect how much your Heal and Nano deltas help you, at all levels. (Because this is in line with their strengths and weaknesses)
• Incrementing your MaxHealth should be beneficial to your health regain rate. (In addition to making sense (imo), this would slightly reduce the effect of more hp = worse in PvP)
• Incrementing your MaxNanoPool should be beneficial to your nano regain rate.
• For balancing reasons, buffs to MaxHP and MaxNanoPool from nanoprograms/perk actions should not affect the healdelta ammounts (or we'd get a situation where , for example, an enforcer using the improved ultra behemoth nano would have such a large heal delta, they'd be unbeatable)

I need feedback on which numbers would make most sense for making this suggestion achieve the abovementioned goals without forcing everyone into cookie-cutter setups. Choosing one breed over another should give both benefits and drawbacks; But neither should be so extreme that a single breed is the clear winner.

The Updated Suggestion
Tick Rate
Healdelta tick rate breed caps:

• Atrox: 3s
• Opifex: 3.5s
• Solitus: 3.5s
• Nanomage: 4s

Nanodelta tick rate breed caps:

• Atrox: 4s
• Opifex: 3.5s
• Solitus: 3.5s
• Nanomage: 3s

A character would reach their Healdelta tick rate cap if their base Stamina is breedcapped.
A character would reach their Nanodelta tick rate cap if their base Psychic is breedcapped.

For every base skillpoint below breedcap, an additional 0.1s tick rate is added.
Example:

• Atrox with base Stamina of breedcap would have 3s HealDelta tick rate.
• Atrox with base stamina of 10 points below breedcap would have 4s HealDelta tick rate.

Delta Ammount
HealDelta would be 1% of base HP.
Currently, the breeds get this much HP per point:

• Body Dev
  
  • Atrox: 4
  • Opifex: 3
  • Solitus: 3
  • Nanomage: 2
• Nano Pool
  
  • Atrox: 2
  • Opifex: 3
  • Solitus: 3
  • Nanomage: 4

Since the breed (and profession, I'm told) factors in to how much HP a toon has, I think it makes sense to apply this to the Delta Ammounts as well.
Per 200 unbuffed HP (that is, HP from everything but nanoprograms), HealDelta ammount should increment by 1.
Per 200 unbuffed MaxNanoPool (that is, MaxNanoPool from everything but nanoprograms), NanoDelta ammount should increment by 1
Examples:

• Heal Delta ammounts
  • A toon with 10 000 MaxHealth without nano programs to buff, will have a HealDelta ammount of 050 + all HealDelta modifiers.
  • A toon with 20 000 MaxHealth without nano programs to buff, will have a HealDelta ammount of 100 + all HealDelta modifiers.
  • A toon with 30 000 MaxHealth without nano programs to buff, will have a HealDelta ammount of 150 + all HealDelta modifiers.
• Nano Delta ammounts
  • A toon with 05 000 MaxNanoPool without nano programs to buff, will have a NanoDelta ammount of 025 + all NanoDelta modifiers.
  • A toon with 15 000 MaxNanoPool without nano programs to buff, will have a NanoDelta ammount of 075 + all NanoDelta modifiers.
  • A toon with 25 000 MaxNanoPool without nano programs to buff, will have a NanoDelta ammount of 125 + all NanoDelta modifiers.

HealDelta per breed example, 15 000 HP, +125 HealDelta modifiers

• Atrox: ((15000/200)+125)/3 = (75+125)/3 = 200/3 -> 66.67 HP/s or 4000 HP/min
• Opifex/Solitus: ((15000/200)+125)/3.5 = (75+125)/3.5 = 200/3.5 = 57.1 HP/s or 3426 HP/min
• Nanomage: ((15000/200)+125)/3.5 = (75+125)/3.5 = 200/4 = 50 HP/s or 3000 HP/min

Comparing to the current mechanic
An atrox which has 10000 HP from body dev today, and +125 HealDelta modifiers will get (10000/4/100)+125 = (18.75 + 125) = 143.75 HealDelta ammount. At a 2s tick, that's 71.875 HP/s, or 4312.5 HP/min.
A solitus which has 10000 HP from body dev today, and +125 HealDelta modifiers will get (10000/3/100)+125 = (33.33 + 125) = 158.33 HealDelta ammount. At a 2s tick, that's 79.1 HP/s, or 4750 HP/min.

The Initial Suggestion (kept so people can see why others posted what they did before the rewrite of the suggestion)

Terminology:
Psychic BaseVal is the maximum base psychic skill of a nanomage at the characters current level
Strength BaseVal is the maximum base strength skill of an atrox at the characters current level

For each skillpoint below the "* BaseVal", 0.01s extra delta time.
Additionally, for each 1% below the "* BaseVal", 0.15s extra delta time.

This means that at 220, the breeds capped HealDelta tick rate would be:

• Atrox: 5s
• Solitus: 8.7s
• Opifex: 8.9s
• Nanomage: 11.6s

And their capped NanoDelta tick rate would be:

• Atrox: 13.3s
• Solitus: 8.5s
• Opifex: 9.3s
• Nanomage: 5s

HealDelta Interval: If current base strength is that of "Strength BaseVal", 5s when standing, 3s when sitting.
This will give the Atrox an edge, because they are genetically engineered to handle radiation and other toxic effects from working in the notum mines, and thus regenerate their health faster.
Solitus & Opifex will have a slightly slower interval, while nanomage would be worst off.
It's based on strength instead of stamina because apparently, Opifex has less maximum Stamina than Nanomage.

NanoDelta Interval: If current base psychic skill is that of "Psychic BaseVal", 6s when standing, 3s when sitting.
This will give the Nanomage an edge, because they are genetically engineered to handle nano energy, and thus regenerate their nano pool faster. Solitus & Opifex will have a slightly slower interval, while Atrox would be worst off.


Base HealDelta ammount: 2% of base MaxHP. -- this encourages investing IP in Body Dev
Base NanoDelta ammount: 2% of base MaxNanoPool. -- this encourages investing IP in Nano Pool

Why?
By making the interval cappable at all levels, NanoDelta and HealDelta will be viable at lower levels. Which breed you choose will make a difference, both on interval and base ammount the delta ticks recharge.
It's of course still possible to improve the Heal & Nano delta ammounts through buffs and/or gear.

Currently, the base healdelta is 4 for atrox, 3 for opi/soli, and 2 for nanomage + trickledown from stats (I can't recall which at the moment). Everyone are able to cap heal/nano delta tick rate at tl7, which (IMO) makes it less penalized than it should to roll certain breed+prof combinations. It is, basically, something which should be changed.

If this suggestion is implemented, breed choice will have a much larger impact on the gameplay.

PS: The exact numbers are arbitrary at the moment; Anyone have suggestions for reasonable numbers?

Too long; Didn't read:
At the moment, hd/nd must be a balancing nightmare because you have to consider both amount and tick rate. I suggest taking the rate out of the equation, making the balancing effort focus on the delta amounts. By making the *delta tickrate cap of your breed reachable at any level, hd/nd will be viable at lower levels again. The only thing you need to balance now, is how much hd/nd one can get per tick at a given level.
Breeds should affect your hd/nd regen in some way, to make them more different to one another.

[Marinegent]

Certain professions are totally dependent on heal delta, ill cite soldiers as one of those professions.

The idea of balance is to make all setups and choices viable. It's also one of the landmarks of anarchy online.

This is a step towards cookie cutter set ups do to obvious choice of breeds. (Atrox for tanking/dd profs, nanomage for casting profs. Solitus/opifex for the poor souls who don't know better)

I for one am against anything that makes deciding how to build your toon as obvious as having a sign pointing to an option and saying "CHOOSE THIS"

[XenonDe]

Nice idea in general, but the effects would be too dramatic. This indeed would make cookie cutter setups, an atrox NT or doc? sorry. you loose. A nanomage soldier? dude you're clueless wtfpwnbbqlol.

That's not entirely desireable.

[Demoder]

I'm only suggesting the idea in general, not the specific numbers.
The specific numbers need some more thought than my random "Oh I have an idea, I'll post it" process.

What numbers would make this general idea work?
Would it be better to use each breeds cap of the respective skills as a starting point, and saying that breed X has so so much * delta rate before the calculation, while breed Y has so so much?
So that if you always keep the respective skills maxed, you will always have the cap of your breed - which could be something like 5s healdelta tick for atrox, 6s for soli/opi and 7s for nanomage?

[mr_road]

i'm all for nano delta and heal delta being present in the low levels. its one of the big differences between start and end game game play. i like the idea of having the tick rate based on a value which shifts with level.

however, i would lean towards having all things effecting the rate and amount, not just breed. trox's can get capped nano delta but with sacrifices in equip, nm can get capped heal delta but with sacrifices in equip. kind of like how 150 trox doc's can get 2s nanodelta at the moment (but they sacrifice a lot).

[XenonDe]

What numbers would make this general idea work?
Would it be better to use each breeds cap of the respective skills as a starting point, and saying that breed X has so so much * delta rate before the calculation, while breed Y has so so much?
So that if you always keep the respective skills maxed, you will always have the cap of your breed - which could be something like 5s healdelta tick for atrox, 6s for soli/opi and 7s for nanomage?

Damn hard question, I think a ratio around 5/6/7 would be a more balanced approach. Having one breed regain almost 3 times as much nano as the opposite one were over the top. Even twice as much is over the top imo, at best the "favoured" breed should have a 1.5 advantage while the "worst" maybe something about 0.75 with the neutral grounds at a base of 1. (4/6/8 would be one such example)

I also have to agree with the previous poster.. I really really like the idea of making ND/HD have some effect before tl7 (tl5 twink).

[erozc]

ND and HD as they currenty are, are one of the most powerful and defining mechanisms in the game. Tampering with these in such a manner that some breeds would benefit more than others could mean much bigger differences between breeds than any breed perk changes. I'm not saying it shouldn't be done, I'm just saying that it's a really tricky mechanic to play around with.

[Kinkstaah]

Have you considered that anything slower than 2s HD/ND makes the entire thing useless, and as a result makes this whole balancing attempt utterly pointless?

[Ciex]

It isnt a good idea to change it as it has been workin ok and noone complains. Maybe removing some of -nano cost items or removing silly items like docs ofab ring could stop nano spamming madness. But HD is just working fine.

[Leamartini]

Stuff slower than 2s for HD just makes people not want to spend 1 billion on a feet implant. And ND might work fine if some professions get some nano's cost rebalanced.

And caps depending on breed are nice but 4/6/8 just makes everyone want to roll Atrox or Nanomage depending on profession. Soli/Opi get 8 ticks/24 secs while Atrox/Nanomage get 9 (while also choosing if they prefer getting HD or ND ticks)

So try something like 4/5/8 and it sounds quite more balanced. Or 2/3/5 if you believe it should be possible to get 2 sec HD/ND, but that just makes all docs switch to nanomage, all solds to trox, ... (difference between 4 and 5 sec heal/nanodelta makes it possible to be soli/opi without really noticing it). And in both case, trox appears like a ****ty choice for docs/... and nanomage for soldiers/... ? Guess what, it's supposed to be so

[Xtremtech]

It isnt a good idea to change it as it has been workin ok and noone complains.

I wouldn't say that nobody has complained. There have been many discussions over the years about the fact that nanocost, particularly at higher levels, doesn't really serve its role as a factor in managing casting - which it used to a great deal more. One of the major changes in this regard was when nano-delta was seriously enhanced post-SL and so people have suggested that it's one potential area of change that could address the issue.

The same is essentially true of Heal Delta, though it's an issue that has come up less. Essentially, when the delta changes were introduced along with the ability to buff HD stats, the entire healing balance of the game shifted considerably. Being able to get passive healing in the kinds of amounts that they've reached these days through HD, has helped to skew the game more in favour of burst damage. Professions that rely on steady damage over time, such as pet professions, DoT professions, support professions, smaller nuke professions etc are much more affected by such issues than others.

Finally, there has long been a desire in many players to have breed play a more important role in character building. For many professions, there's really little or no real benefit to one breed over another... and where there is, it's very often tied to a specific breed special ability rather than being due to the innate characteristics of the breed itself. This is a difficult area though, because as others have pointed out above, establishing substantive breed differences can lead to one breed becoming too strong. There is always a great difficulty in balancing breed distinctiveness against creating cookie cutter builds.

But however you look at it, it's not that there isn't an issue of some kind to be addressed. There may be questions about balancing changes and/or whether changes to other stats may be more effective in dealing with the issues in question... but the issues are certainly there.

X

[wyldebeast]

But HD is just working fine.

Any system where sitting down to passively outheal an attackers damage is a viable tactic is just wrong and in need of change. The HD (and ND) system we have now is in need of work.

[Notcrattey]

Any system where sitting down to passively outheal an attackers damage is a viable tactic is just wrong and in need of change. The HD (and ND) system we have now is in need of work.

The best method to fix that would to make it so whenever you're sitting, your chance to get critted increases by 200%

[Demoder]

The best method to fix that would to make it so whenever you're sitting, your chance to get critted increases by 200%

Or to make the heal/nano delta affected by the "isAttacked" stance.

[Klodovik]

Or we could leave it as it is. It's perfectly fine.

[Marinegent]

Or we could leave it as it is. It's perfectly fine.

For once, I agree with klod.

It aint broke. It aint even close to as broken as other mechanics in this game. Leave it.

[Demoder]

After thinking a while, I've figured it makes sense with a per-breed cap of 3/3.5/4 second ticks, and letting the character reach this cap when they have capped the respective skills. (stamina for HD, psychic for ND?)
It'd nerf HD/ND at TL7 because the current cap is 2s, but it'd also make HD/ND viable at all levels.

Doing so, means that the major HD/ND power factor from a devs perspective is ammount/tickrate HD/ND for all breeds, at all levels.
It'd make it easier to balance a professions heal/nano regenerative power, since the tick rate has the potential of being constant - if the player invest the IP to make it so.

[Kinkstaah]

Any system where sitting down to passively outheal an attackers damage is a viable tactic is just wrong and in need of change. The HD (and ND) system we have now is in need of work.

Sit = -200% critical decrease

See how often people sit then.

[Demoder]

Updated the original suggestion.

About Heal/Nano delta not being broken:
In addition to having a terrible tick rate, lower levels have less +heal/nano delta. That's a double-penalizer, which IMO, is too much.
I think it would be much easier to balance things when there's just one non-optional penalizer to factor in.

I for one always ignore heal/nano delta below level 150, because there's no way to get a decent enough tick rate.

[Mailana]

Yes!~

Nerf healdelta and nanodelta for tl7 (requiring full ipr and alpha retwink, and probably breed change to cookiecutter breed for your prof, just to get halfway back to where you already were), preferably right when the new engine and rebalance go live. If history taught us anything, it taught us that there will be horrible bugs and crashes for awhile from the new engine, and that the rebalance will be anything but for a few months while they match up theory with reality. Perfect time to make the game require more micromanagement and pointless retwinking sessions.

We should be able to reduce the playerbase by at least 80% if we do it all at the same time. Our new targeted customer is someone so stupid and apathetic they wont complain when you swap in steel wool for their cotton candy.

The old nerf hd/nd threads were pure nerfbegging, clever to make it seem like this thread was about lower tls.