The best reason why rage shouldn't be nerfed

[Klodovik]

Aye, sometimes it takes a genius to state the obvious

M-hm.

Attacking the trader toolset all the time won't stop someone from getting 400 NCU worth of OSBs. There are changes that can be made to the trader toolset to nerf the overeffectiveness of laddering and OSBs without breaking traders, and those should be the focus alongside a general revamping of AO buffs.

However, only tarders have access to hugely OPd toolset, once they use OSB, at lower levels. That's probably the main thing that is fueling the rage in this thread. Nerfing/reworking OSB in general (if that's what you imply) ain't gonna bring balance to this.

[Gatester]

However, only tarders have access to hugely OPd toolset, once they use OSB, at lower levels. That's probably the main thing that is fueling the rage in this thread. Nerfing/reworking OSB in general (if that's what you imply) ain't gonna bring balance to this.

Traders are not the only ones. Enforcers and agents are easily pushed into an extreme advantage with OSBs. JAME soldiers become highly dangerous when they start lasting into additional bursts. Professions with weapons that can outdo the benefits of OSBs and survive other professions are generally OP while OSBd.

In Battlestation who are the hardest profs to kill? Doctors, then MPs, then agents who use their entire toolset. On that same note, MAs, fixers, engineers, NTs, crats, keepers are all starting to stand on their own, and the issues then become strong gear (JAME blasters, tiig beaters) and CC tools (no real removal tools besides rage, low runspeeds, spammability).

My 30 agent can kill a 49 ithaca trader even after I am drained. My 30 agent gets insta-splatted by 49 JAME traders. Without powerful gear, traders require actual intelligence to use exceptionally to the point where they are tanking enforcers and soldiers and killing them as often as they are being killed. Believe it or not, that recharge on drains is quite long and you will die if you don't learn to actually play your profession and your weapon doesn't cap every hit on players.

[bitnykk]

anyways it's no OSB that make the game unbalanced as everyone access the same potentially, and they make AO twinking one of the most interesting MMO feature for years. nerfing that, even for agent or trader (or CL buffs), would kill the spirit of the game itself.

but that's obvious traders are OPed in low titles through their drains, and the only worthy alternative left is TL1/2 AAO/NR enforcer (+ eventually TL3 NR agent ...).
balancing (not nerfing !) drains is needed to make all other professions worthy again. i suggest people to read the topic about that.

once that is fixed, along with a Notum Repulsor rework e.g., we can talk about balancing enforcer also because their only justification to keep OPed rage/procs was counter low title traders.

[Gatester]

anyways it's no OSB that make the game unbalanced as everyone access the same potentially, and they make AO twinking one of the most interesting MMO feature for years. nerfing that, even for agent or trader (or CL buffs), would kill the spirit of the game itself.

but that's obvious traders are OPed in low titles through their drains, and the only worthy alternative left is TL1/2 AAO/NR enforcer (+ eventually TL3 NR agent ...).
balancing (not nerfing !) drains is needed to make all other professions worthy again. i suggest people to read the topic about that.

once that is fixed, along with a Notum Repulsor rework e.g., we can talk about balancing enforcer also because their only justification to keep OPed rage/procs was counter low title traders.

RRFE+Sup omni med+HNQ+GSF+Behe+moch+HE (small)

and

Traders healing ability+CC tools+drains

You really think just making drains "different" is gonna stop that from becoming unkillable for 10 out of 14 professions? In the end, you just give a trader an excuse to replace 100 NCU worth of mochams with even more OSBs like spec blockers, CS, Team LC, etc.



And then here comes to OP rage/procs whine again lol. Is it the runspeed thats so terrible, something that only ranged professions should have a lot of so they never have to be hit by melee? Maybe its the NR, because no profession should have a defense against casters? I get the distinct impression from your proc and Notum Repulsor comment that you aren't even referring to the CC removal portion.

Let me just explain this to you nice and simply, Funcom has determined that enforcers will have high nano resist. The justification for keeping Rage is NOT to counter traders, its the fact that Rage is the "cherry on top" tool in the enforcer arsenal that makes it enjoyable. I would no more ask for a removal of soldier AMS, fixer hots, or crat evades than I would for rage.

[Anarchic1]

traders/enf/agent dominate lowbie pvp let it be, let it be.

Think every twink pvper has one of the 3 no need to nerf them, make other profs viable by boosting them rather than nerfing their opponents

[Josephina]

RRFE+Sup omni med+HNQ+GSF+Behe+moch+HE (small)

and

Traders healing ability+CC tools+drains

You really think just making drains "different" is gonna stop that from becoming unkillable for 10 out of 14 professions? In the end, you just give a trader an excuse to replace 100 NCU worth of mochams with even more OSBs like spec blockers, CS, Team LC, etc.

Traders nano toolset other than drains, would be nerfed as well if players needed more levels to cast the same drains: less nanoskills -> less powerful nanos + less nano AR. With bitnykk's idea of only levellocking the debuff part + making the trader leave fight every few minutes to rebuff, that would not change however, so keep your 100 ncu reserved. Nerfing the casting of high quality drains at low levels also isn't a magic solution that would suddenly make the lowbie game completely balanced, but it is one of the most needed changes to make it more balanced.

And then here comes to OP rage/procs whine again lol. Is it the runspeed thats so terrible, something that only ranged professions should have a lot of so they never have to be hit by melee? Maybe its the NR, because no profession should have a defense against casters? I get the distinct impression from your proc and Notum Repulsor comment that you aren't even referring to the CC removal portion.

Let me just explain this to you nice and simply, Funcom has determined that enforcers will have high nano resist. The justification for keeping Rage is NOT to counter traders, its the fact that Rage is the "cherry on top" tool in the enforcer arsenal that makes it enjoyable. I would no more ask for a removal of soldier AMS, fixer hots, or crat evades than I would for rage.

Infernal rage + Vile Rage = +800 runspeed + 550 runspeed = +1350 runspeed obtainable at low levels. Add in gsf and that enf will be zipping past everyone with gsf or not. An NR buff on a 50s proc isn't really dependable so I won't count that, but I do think that +1350 runspeed more than other profs is too much.

About Infernal Rage: I have no problems with the positive effects of the nano, but imo the penalty for raging has declined too much. It just doesn't hurt much anymore on RK, turning this short duration "rage" buff into just another general buff that can be kept running.

[bitnykk]

Funcom has determined that enforcers will have high nano resist

That was cute to recall the past, thanx. & now, along with the players, they're trying to repair things needing fix for so many years, among wich balancing trader & enforcer @low title.

[Gatester]

Traders nano toolset other than drains, would be nerfed as well if players needed more levels to cast the same drains: less nanoskills -> less powerful nanos + less nano AR. With bitnykk's idea of only levellocking the debuff part + making the trader leave fight every few minutes to rebuff, that would not change however, so keep your 100 ncu reserved. Nerfing the casting of high quality drains at low levels also isn't a magic solution that would suddenly make the lowbie game completely balanced, but it is one of the most needed changes to make it more balanced.

Would this stop a 26 JAME trader from alphaing everything? Would this make it possible for the 10-11 professions that have no way of killing a fully OSB'd trader at tl2 to in fact kill them? I don't think many of you have actually done the math when it comes to low level damage and healing. When your regulars are 150-250 and that trader has 4000 max health, 30% reflects, and 100 healing per second, you are fighting a severaly uphill battle.

Now the trader is doing 300-600 damage regulars, burst caps through TMS, fling is 300-600 as well. When I die to a trader at towers and he is using a JAME, they do not bother draining me lol, so how is a nerf to drains, that does not break the profession, supposed to keep me from getting alphad when I am also heavily OSB'd?

Infernal rage + Vile Rage = +800 runspeed + 550 runspeed = +1350 runspeed obtainable at low levels. Add in gsf and that enf will be zipping past everyone with gsf or not. An NR buff on a 50s proc isn't really dependable so I won't count that, but I do think that +1350 runspeed more than other profs is too much.

I really need to see how short of duration, and which CC tools share a lockout in the future to know what is truly needed. Depending on how things are adjusted, and especially if the SL/DB essences lose their RS debuff, we may need to reduce the runspeed portion by almost 75%. That is after balancing, currently I do not understand which professions are needing to avoid enforcers so badly that also cannot do so.

That was cute to recall the past, thanx. & now, along with the players, they're trying to repair things needing fix for so many years, among wich balancing trader & enforcer @low title.

Why don't you ask means the ETA on the nano resist nerf for enforcers. Although fixing it might involve making it actually work at low levels rather than removing it Nothing like chain rooting level 49 enforcers with http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=56218 on a 30 agent.

[bitnykk]

Why don't you ask means the ETA on the nano resist nerf for enforcers.

because there are a lot of other issues to balance PVP on overall titles ... e.g. :
- advys having too much of both offense (11 sec AS, decent AR, MR for trox) and defense (coon, evades, inroot/snarability, heals) compared to any other profession,
- nt having too powerful nukes at high level, wich were a band aid for their squishiness and became a total unbalancement,
- several nemesis nanos wich initial idea were cool but implemented or distributed in an unbalanced way,
- etc ...

but for me the most unbalanced stuff ingame atm is low title trader drains, then enfo nanos/procs & 1HE/1HB sploit & also notum repulsor tweak along with those.
then i'll wait to see how FC wanna change heals to see if that endly balance advys without nerfing doc/agent. then i'll care about how they wanna replace nt 1 button kill with some interesting combos. etc ...

things need an order to be dealt with or that becomes messy, don't you think ?

[Gatester]

I think people just need to learn how to play. Most (keyword is most) "OP profs" are easy to kill when you know what you are doing, the problems come from toolsets from higher levels being used at lower levels and no way to defeat them.

1he/1hb is also being fixed to where perks don't lock each other out as well. That was a mistake on FC's part apparently.

Also for nerfs to low level enforcers, I would do something about some weapon choices meant for 75+ toons being used at 15-49, the 2000 absorb tank, and maybe the runspeed, but the NR is almost useless due to player ignorance.

[sultryvoltron]

1he/1hb is also being fixed to where perks don't lock each other out as well. That was a mistake on FC's part apparently.

I figured you would understand this from the last time it was explained.

The current "lockout" doesn't work. It doesn't prevent people from queueing up both perks at the same time. The lockout only applys after the perk has gone off. Thus, queue them up at the same time and avoid the lockout.

There's no point in keeping around a lockout that doesn't work. Instead, it seems from the perk docs that they are nerfing both lines and dropping the lockout. So, I wouldn't call it a mistake as much as a failed attempt to fix. Nice idea, but the execution fell short.

[Josephina]

Would this stop a 26 JAME trader from alphaing everything? Would this make it possible for the 10-11 professions that have no way of killing a fully OSB'd trader at tl2 to in fact kill them? I don't think many of you have actually done the math when it comes to low level damage and healing. When your regulars are 150-250 and that trader has 4000 max health, 30% reflects, and 100 healing per second, you are fighting a severaly uphill battle.

Nerfing drains obviously won't change that traders and agents can get more ncu than any other profession at those levels. I repeat: "Nerfing the casting of high quality drains at low levels also isn't a magic solution that would suddenly make the lowbie game completely balanced, but it is one of the most needed changes to make it more balanced.". If you know one single change that solves every single problem in one magic blow while preserving diversity, you should have shared it long ago

Now the trader is doing 300-600 damage regulars, burst caps through TMS, fling is 300-600 as well. When I die to a trader at towers and he is using a JAME, they do not bother draining me lol, so how is a nerf to drains, that does not break the profession, supposed to keep me from getting alphad when I am also heavily OSB'd?

You're basically explaining yourself why drains are such a big issue. That JAME trader will always be pre-drained and it's those drains that first allowed him to equip the weapon and then allow him to make effective use of it.

If the nano skill requirements of the drains get adjusted upward or if they are level locked, then that will result in the following for your future JAME trader:

• Because the future trader gets less weaponskills from his lower ql drains, he
  
  • will need more levels to equip the same ql JAME;
  • will need more levels to not fall into a lower OE scale with the same ql JAME;
  • will have a lower damage multiplier than before (which still matters for traders below 1k AR);
  • will have less AR and thus (theoretically) crit less + maybe even miss a hit on an evader, further decreasing his damage.
• Because the future trader gets less nanoskills from his lower ql drains, he
  
  • will need more levels to cast the same ql nanos;
  • will have less nano AR and he will have more of his nanos resisted (even if it's only a marginal difference, there will still be a difference).

Weapons that are basically aberrations on the pre-SL scaling weapon system of AO (like the JAME, Jobe pistols, ...) will also always continue to create imbalances when they can first be equiped, but again: I don't know any change that fixes every single problem in one go. Changing drains is just one more step.

I really need to see how short of duration, and which CC tools share a lockout in the future to know what is truly needed. Depending on how things are adjusted, and especially if the SL/DB essences lose their RS debuff, we may need to reduce the runspeed portion by almost 75%.

Procs were also being changed, so the awesome rage procs might be no longer an issue in the future either. With a lockout rage might finally become a short duration burst of energy. When it can't be run permanently, huge numbers on it are what makes it shine imo.

That is after balancing, currently I do not understand which professions are needing to avoid enforcers so badly that also cannot do so.

With the current enf toolset at low levels (tl5 and below), I don't see for which professions the speeding lowbie enf could not be considered an issue (other than other OP profs at the various title levels ofc), the runspeed difference is just too big. It's not just about avoiding to fight the enf, for several professions it is also about getting the time to use some of their toolset before the enf reaches them, for several more professions it is about getting a bigger chance to kill that enf before he runs out of range again.

[Gatester]

I figured you would understand this from the last time it was explained.

The current "lockout" doesn't work. It doesn't prevent people from queueing up both perks at the same time. The lockout only applys after the perk has gone off. Thus, queue them up at the same time and avoid the lockout.

There's no point in keeping around a lockout that doesn't work. Instead, it seems from the perk docs that they are nerfing both lines and dropping the lockout. So, I wouldn't call it a mistake as much as a failed attempt to fix. Nice idea, but the execution fell short.

I believe there is a chance FC's copy and paste routine caused most of that issue, but who knows. Unless ofc you do not think FC makes mistakes? Anyways it is quite easy to nerf duel weapon perklines. Only allow the right hand weapon to determine which perks you use if you have more than one weapon.

If FC was going to continue to nerf multiple perklines then they would do something about shotgun+ranged energy+pistol+SMG (whichever combination you want). I like your assumption that the lines are getting nerfed though, I generally think of lower def checks, increased range, and 2x faster recharge speeds as different ways of boosting a perkline. Slowing down the alpha doesn't mean as much when it isn't the only way to kill people.

You're basically explaining yourself why drains are such a big issue. That JAME trader will always be pre-drained and it's those drains that first allowed him to equip the weapon and then allow him to make effective use of it.

A 30 Trader with JAME in BS (No OSBs) can keep his JAME 100% with self buffed drains. With Mochams, RC, assault rifle mastery, even nerfed drains would not prevent that 30 trader from keeping the JAME 100%. At 75%, the JAME blaster is still more effective than ANY other weapon at that range.

The difference between the 30 trader on BS with JAME and at towers though, is that in BS he can be killed especially by more than one attacker. The difference between a 49 trader with JAME and a 49 trader with an ithaca, is that I can in fact kill the 49 with an ithaca even while drained. The solution is simple, and always has been, adjust the gear and OSB's available at all levels. If you do not want traders to be balanced at low levels, then NEVER adjust gear and OSB's. Hold onto them like an old man holds onto prejudice and never let go of it. Holding onto OSB wars because "it has always been this way" is definately a viable argument, its just an ignorant one.

[Josephina]

Holding onto low level traders having more weapon- and nanoskills that any other profession of the same level, because "it has always been this way" is definately a viable argument, its just an ignorant one. There, I flung it back.

I also repeat for a third time: "Nerfing the casting of high quality drains at low levels also isn't a magic solution that would suddenly make the lowbie game completely balanced, but it is one of the most needed changes to make it more balanced.". And then I'll stress "one of" once more. I also never excluded OSBs at low levels as being one of the problems, reading comprehension ftl I guess. And if you really believe that changing OSBs is the magic fix that will with one stroke make everything alright, then I can only

[Gatester]

And if you really believe that changing OSBs is the magic fix that will with one stroke make everything alright, then I can only

No, OSBs AND unbalanced gear. Two strokes that solve 90% of all issues Assuming I do not think trader drains need adjustment is just ignorance. Assuming that trader drains are anywhere near the biggest issue at low levels is just plain lack of experience. We do not need to remove every OSB from being used on players, but things like HoTs, reflects, and nanoskill buffs should be looked at.

You can nerf trader drains whatever way you want within the confines of reasonable adjustment and you will not do a thing about the survival of a profession with 400 NCU at low levels. How can you even think of adjusting pvp at low levels if you balance based off of self-buffed players, and then you thrust hordes of OSBs onto them? Do you think my level 1 even needs drains to survive when I am OSBd? I don't even drain when soloing abmouth in subway, how is a player with far less survival and damage than a level 40 boss supposed to kill me?

[Obtena]

And if you really believe that changing OSBs is the magic fix that will with one stroke make everything alright, then I can only

Rollyeyes? Why? Limiting/fixing OSB's would be a significant first step to cleaning up the lowbie PVP aspect of the game, and perhaps the only one that would be necessary. It's clear that more professions would enter the 'good' pile if this was done. For example ... you can imaging how no HnQ would definitely bring in more healing professions and de-emphasize weapons and setups that alpha people in 10 seconds. Players might opt for setups that allow for longer encounters if they had (or were forced to accept) access to better team healing tools.

Nerfing 'access to gear' is just another way of saying "Nerf OSB's" because you only get access to those items with OSB's.

As for traders, the OSB thing would be equally valid but perhaps it's necessary to wait and see how the hostile nano re-work part of the balancing will affect drains before making hasty conclusions or suggestions for fixing it.

[bitnykk]

no HnQ would (...) de-emphasize weapons and setups that alpha people in 10 seconds

or not at all !

the lowbie PVP issue doesn't come from OSB. it comes from trader drain unlimitation & enforcer "balance" power so that every other profession is let aside.

fixing that won't be done by OSB nerf, that's a naive way of thinking. the day you can't get rrfe/gsf/hot anymore the lowbie PVP will be more dull than ever and still not balanced ...

[thecheeseman]

i think the dot from rage is great as a negative side effect.

the dot you receive from casting rage should be scaled to your level. if even on rk you receive 700 dmg dot at lvl 220, it would be a good way to balance this nano.

a timer is good too but in my opinion focusing on rage (the orignial intended negative side effect) is more creative

[Anarchic1]

so what we seen here is a thread asking for a nerf for osb now. do you know that any twink isn't even viable without osb.... how do you plan to account for twinks that are already made who had access to osbs vs those in the pipeline. How would u even implement an osb lockout feature that's fair. It's easy to say nerf osb but what's a fair way to do it....

[Gatester]

so what we seen here is a thread asking for a nerf for osb now. do you know that any twink isn't even viable without osb.... how do you plan to account for twinks that are already made who had access to osbs vs those in the pipeline. How would u even implement an osb lockout feature that's fair. It's easy to say nerf osb but what's a fair way to do it....

Nerf non-stat boosting OSB's

Reflects
Spec blockers
HoTs
Massive health buffs w/out ability increases
Absorbs
Outside healing
Damage shields
Damage add buffs (up to 1500 damage add, yeah thats balanced )
etc

After that, adjust individual nanos and tools for each profession. Once setups are not based around a 220 players buffs at level 21, then you can actually balance each profession. With that done, then additional OSB's that need adjustment can be done based on actual player abilities, not based on players with full OSBs.

You do not need to lock ALL OSBs. There is nothing wrong with getting skill buffs or ability buffs at low levels, that is part of the twinking aspect. HnQ, RRFE, Absorbs...these have nothing to attribute to player skill or ability, and they overpower the gear accessible to most professions. Title Level 2 battlestation is as close to balanced as it gets yet it has no OSBs. Every profession but shade is truly viable, and the most powerful self-buffed professions are doctors, MPs, and FP-utilizing agents.


Those of you constantly complaining about enforcers and traders and how its their nanos that are making them OP at tower wars should get a little experience first. If I said it once, ive said it a million times, I can kill 49 Ithaca traders self-buffed with my 30 agent even when they drain me. I CANNOT kill a 30 JAME trader fully OSB'd even with my 30 agent also fully OSB'd. This is years of experience at title level 2 telling you people what the problem is, listen to the damn 30 agent that takes on these OP 49s in Battlestation and wins.