The best reason why rage shouldn't be nerfed

[Marinegent]

As long as drains won't be level locked - traders will be OPd. It doesnt matter if drain lasts 3 mins or 30 seconds, it still does, can be refreshed while target isnt available to do anything.

The only chance to rework this, as i see it - trader drains should be similar to AAO/AAD drains. If you drain AAO from target and pop AAD drain - it overwrites AAO one, and vice versa.
Split trader drains into 2 categories - weapon skill drains and nanoskill drains. Alright, my enforcer won't be able to cast nanos, but weapons will still be 100%, then again, if weapons are 75% - then I'll still be able to cast my nanos. That will help people to either escape, or simply kill traders using barrow strength and other tools to remove roots.

Besides, nanite drains and all others are pretty OP as they are, while still have pretty low nanocost. I'm clearly sure trader drain nanos should have their nanocost increased greatly, so lowbie traders won't be able to spam those for long on multiple targets without losin all the nanopool.

Agree with this heavily.

[bitnykk]

Agree with this heavily.

i'm sorry but this is the worst sum of "suggestions" i've read on trader balancing : nanocost approach is unfair, dividing drain in 2 lines creates more unbalancing, level locking has side effects, even if i considered it the best way until recently.
i suggest, before agreeing heavily on anything worthy (or not !), to check that link and the different solution proposed : http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...d.php?t=570554

@ tl;dr people, list of main solutions :
scale drain : http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...9&postcount=70
level rate : http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...7&postcount=83
drain division : http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...&postcount=218
% of AR : http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...&postcount=226
version cap : http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...&postcount=285

[Josephina]

A simple level lock is at least a whole lot better than what (I think) you are suggesting.


You're basically suggesting 2 things:
1) A scaling drain depending on the level of the target. Which is basically a levellock on the target and which comes with all the problems of levellocks.

To use the numbers of the first link as an example: a trader would be able to drain a target for 50skills+30AAO. Now suppose that there comes along another expansion/dungeon with another load of extra stat inflation. Other tl3 professions, who are fortunate to be less affected by level locks, might gain something like 100 in their key skills, but at the same time the trader can still only drain 50skills+30AAO. Given enough stat inflation, professions that are held back too much by levellocks will no longer be able to compete. *waves at lowbie shades*


2) The second part of your suggestion is to do nothing about the self buffed part of the drains. You think that a profession with 380 nanoskills from items before mochams (which traders can easily fit in because of cl buffs), who casts buffs that will give 348 extra nanoskills+attack skill, is not unbalanced?

Once a trader reaches 380 nanoskills from equipment, he is able to reach 868 nanoskills, leaving every other profession hundreds of nanoskills behind. The extremely high AR that lowbie trader will have because of his +348 weaponskills also works unbalancing, because it means that evades from evade professions won't work at all against traders/agents, or evades would be raised so much that only traders/agents (+enfs if they don't get nerfed) would be able to hit those evaders. Or a combination of both.


I hate level locks, but if I had to chose between your on target level lock or a level lock on casting, then I would still go with the second.

[Notcrattey]

tl4 traders are also pretty strong. You be suprised how oped a lvl 109 trader is.

Which is why they get ruined by NTs, MPs, and various other profs? I think you'd be surprised about how Balanced they are with the rest of the profs in the range, although that's not to say they're not powerful; they certainly are.
If you don't understand why, the reason is OTHER PROF'S TOOLSETS ARE MORE COMING INTO PLAY.

[Anarchic1]

Which is why they get ruined by NTs, MPs, and various other profs? I think you'd be surprised about how Balanced they are with the rest of the profs in the range, although that's not to say they're not powerful; they certainly are.
If you don't understand why, the reason is OTHER PROF'S TOOLSETS ARE MORE COMING INTO PLAY.

Lmao no they don't at low tls.

[Armus]

If traders dominate lowbie PVP already, then what does it matter if they nerf rage or not? It won't change anything.

It matters because even though traders own pretty much any other class enforcers do have a good chance vs them. Nerfing the one class that does have a better than 50/50 chance vs traders would be bad, wouldn't it?

[delsabre]

Do your guys even know what balance is?... it's way out of content about balance if you take 2 op professions and say they need to stay the same or they cant kill each other.. while the rest of the professions is left in the dust.

by balance we need to see major changes in this part of the game

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[bitnykk]

1) A scaling drain depending on the level of the target. Which is basically a levellock on the target and which comes with all the problems of levellocks.

nop in fact i suggest the trader still cast the highest he can (including with outside buff & pre-draining PVM), but the PVP target gets a reasonnable version of the same nanoline (blue or red) for his own level. in addition the trader side transfer is NOT refreshed if his version is higher. that's better than pure level locking making the trader have to fastly spam different shortcuts to find the one working on target, don't you think ?

Now suppose that there comes along another expansion/dungeon with another load of extra stat inflation.

i'm sorry but this argument applies to almost anything else ingame. i'm not directing the game, just suggesting a balancing solution with canvas, implementation & point of view of side elements (AAO, Notum Repulsor). & anyway Means clear implied he was against the addition of always over-the-top stuff making PVM a joke and PVP unbalanceable everytime, and i 100% agree on that (e.g. i hope digamma never hits live !).

2) The second part of your suggestion is to do nothing about the self buffed part of the drains. (...) evade professions won't work at all against traders/agents

nerfing trader side transfer would create inequality between post-fix twinks and pre-fix twinks.
but as i suggested, the trader side transfer is NOT refreshed during fights if his version is higher than target, so he gets only 3 minutes of megaboost before needing a new drainpet. i think it's fair whereas now traders can refresh no-limited drains on any PVP target.
also with reasonnable drain versions, a lot of profession will now get chance to at least survive or challenge/hit the trader (wich, out of TL2/3 enfos and may be TL3+ agent is impossible now), whereas now most are so over-crippled they miss most or hit for such ridiculous amount that's senseless.

no change/limit of gameplay/PVM/twink for trader, but balanced debuff version for the target is what i think fair.

[Klodovik]

Seriously, tl4 MPs are strong at PvP, when there are no traders around.

crattey, is that you? What's with all this nonsense?

[Notcrattey]

Mp's are food for traders at tl4 and under. Everyone knows it.

Only in duels.

[howlin]

Seriously the whole "dont remove rage because sub tl4 traders would own" is stupid.
Rage should be removed, traders drains at lower TLs reworked.
End.

[Notcrattey]

Seriously the whole "dont remove rage because sub tl4 traders would own" is stupid.
Rage should be removed, traders drains at lower TLs reworked.
End.

And as if the whole nerf trader thread doesn't exist already.

Mods trash this POS please.

[bitnykk]

there are 4 different problems overlapping for rebalance here :
- trader drain needing control/cap @TL1/2/3 (& low 4) but might include AAO debuff to balance
- after that lower notum repulsor stupid amount (upto 20K NR & -8K nano ? who need so much ?)
- then only check enfo nano/proc including rage to balance and avoid trad/enfo endless locking
- endly we can see other profession bump/tweak to balance PVP @ low levels

so this thread is a little ... early in the process. before knowing what FC would do about NR & drains it's as useless to shout for rage nerf or against it ; one sure think is it's gonna need tweaking in the context, as for healing balance (doc, adv, ma, agt in first line).

other sure thing is until now those 2 professions (trad & enfo) used each other to whine "keep us with powerful stuff" despite all other professions. i hope rebalance will put a period on this.

[Josephina]

nop in fact i suggest the trader still cast the highest he can (including with outside buff & pre-draining PVM), but the PVP target gets a reasonnable version of the same nanoline (blue or red) for his own level. in addition the trader side transfer is NOT refreshed if his version is higher. that's better than pure level locking making the trader have to fastly spam different shortcuts to find the one working on target, don't you think ?

That's even worst than what I thought you suggested before. You want to nerf drains by making them extremely user unfriendly. Really, no thanks.

i'm sorry but this argument applies to almost anything else ingame. i'm not directing the game, just suggesting a balancing solution with canvas, implementation & point of view of side elements (AAO, Notum Repulsor). & anyway Means clear implied he was against the addition of always over-the-top stuff making PVM a joke and PVP unbalanceable everytime, and i 100% agree on that (e.g. i hope digamma never hits live !).

It does indeed apply to any situation where profs with levellocked toolsets are fighting or competing against profs with non-levellocked toolsets. The consequences of levellocking a profession's defensive toolset, while leaving some other professions' defence alone, is something that cannot not be taken in consideration.

nerfing trader side transfer would create inequality between post-fix twinks and pre-fix twinks.
...

The idea of nerfing trader drains is to bring down traders to the power of other professions at low levels, giving professions other than traders a chance in twink pvp. The argument that the buff part shouldn't be nerfed, because then traders of the future wouldn't stand a chance against the traders of today, is worse than the argument that neither traders or enfs should be nerfed, because they wouldn't be able to hold each other in reign anymore.

[Anarchic1]

Only in duels.

you truely are a nab. congrats.

[bitnykk]

You want to nerf drains by making them extremely user unfriendly. Really, no thanks

on the contrary. or may be you didn't understand me well?
"pure level locking" (on requirement) is totally unfair & nerfing the profession. "target level locking" is a better basis but still awful to play for the trader (must spam to find the one designed for targets). those solution sucks balls imo.

so i don't see how what i proposed ("target version cap") is user unfriendly as the trader get no nerf his side, except he need to redrain mob frequently (wich is a way to balance the crazy AR he can get over other professions). & i also fix the targets gameplay as these get lower version adapted to their level to avoid crazy OE and negative nanoskills. Only tl2/3 enfo would be affected on AAO applying to low drain versions, and i think it good for rebalance.

The argument that the buff part shouldn't be nerfed, because then traders of the future wouldn't stand a chance against the traders of today, is worse than the argument that neither traders or enfs should be nerfed, because they wouldn't be able to hold each other in reign anymore.

now i strongly disagree. the argument to keep the same possibility of twinking now and in the future for traders/agents is totally valid. it would be a shame to nerf these options making AO a unique game.
only the PVP unbalance need fixing and i think some propositions, including mine, are going in the good direction without creating such a nerf traders would become unplayable or gimp.
also that's not argument but rude truth that enfo & trader used each other to keep power in low titles for years. that must stop for a real rebalance fair to all professions.

[Notcrattey]

you truely are a nab. congrats.

I'm sorry, but I've actually played a TL4 MP. All you've been saying is LOLNOOBUDUNNOANYTHINGLIELEJNMOE

Great arguments, really.

[Gatester]

Lol at the MPs are food for traders comment.

49 MP, 60 MP, 74 MP 75 MP

Traders are one of the easiest profs to kill when they aren't OSB'd. If they are OSB'd they better not be full agg or you are gonna have a hell of a time running away while NSD runs out. Hell, I even dueled a 103 trader twink with my 90 NT, thats a Nano-technician, and owned them lol. Sure there are some nice setups, but its OSBs that make tl1-4 Trader OP.


As far as rage, level locks would be ok even, but most low level enforcers utterly fail stuck on full agg. CC tools getting lockouts makes the rage lockout just fine, but until enfs start adjusting their aggdef bars, there is no such thing as useful NR to a low level enforcer. I should not be able to chain stun an enforcer with http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=29285 or land NSD 100% of the time at tl3.

Rage lockout is a balanced change, nuff said.

[Klodovik]

Sure there are some nice setups, but its OSBs that make tl1-4 Trader OP.

Wai, hello thar Sherlock.

[Gatester]

Wai, hello thar Sherlock.

Aye, sometimes it takes a genius to state the obvious

Attacking the trader toolset all the time won't stop someone from getting 400 NCU worth of OSBs. There are changes that can be made to the trader toolset to nerf the overeffectiveness of laddering and OSBs without breaking traders, and those should be the focus alongside a general revamping of AO buffs.