The Range Cap

[Hacre]

Keepers/shades -choose- not to perk SD. If you feel this is because it takes too much out of your toolset, something I don't necessarily disagree with, it means the problem is in your toolset, not in the CC-profession's toolset.

Pretty much right on the money, which is why I've bitched for Keeper perk lines to be condensed, rather than ranting and demanding nerfs for people who live and die by the effectiveness of their CC tools, which to be quite honest, is pretty much anyone that has a CC tool.

[Szyylin]

He said, "Keepers/shades -choose- not to perk SD."

This is as stupid as saying crats and fixers -choose- not to perk NR 8 to fight NTs.

a NR8 crat wouldn't have any pets or auras, a NR8 fixer wouldn't have any HOTs, laughable AR and so on.... Go find a better comparison.

EVERYONE makes choices when they chose their setup. We don't have 100 SL perks, we don't have 60 AI perks, and we can't max all skills. That's the life of every AO player.

Now, if you CHOSE not to perk SD, that's because the advantages of perking coon (just an example, replace "coon" with the name of your favorite perkline) outweights the adavantages of perking SD.

If roots and snares are THAT bad, perk SD 10 and give us a break.

[Hacre]

Ahem.

There's a massive difference in sacrifice between what MAs/Fixers/Advies give up for SD and what Keepers/Shades have to give up for SD.

In fact, there's no comparison at all. Laughable evades or laughable and non existent offense, or no healing...yeah.

As evidenced by plenty of Fixers/MAs/Advies perking SD and almost no Keepers/Shades perking SD and if they do, they're utter cannon fodder for those that don't rely on or even have CC tools for PvP.

[Unaligned]

I try to avoid forums because of whats happening right in this thread, but could someone please explain to me how there is any other way of interpreting crattey saying at higher tls, no melee profession has issues with snares/roots, other than there are no issues for melee profs?

No is an absolute word, and I think that is the basis for the disagreement here. If he thinks there is an issue why say there are no issues? I mean, there is an issue, and especially at lower levels which I am disappointed that someone can disregard how others do think lower levels are important. Afterall, I would not appreciate it if someone told me the levels I like to play did not matter because they are only concerned with what happens end game.

[Gatester]

Making statements about your experience with profs does take away some of the shine on this thread, it's a statement with a target above it's head.. Really

Thats like saying, "i can say what i want as ive got viable builds for all professions, cause i pvp'd against the best for 8 years, even though ive only really got 3-4 super chars i focused on, in varying tl's"

Apparently lol. My point was that I wouldn't just be boosting some of my professions like my shade and enf, but I would be nerfing profs like my traders, MPs, agents, etc. I would also know when someone was lieing about the necessity of 40meter range, but the only one to even argue that has been you Esqi in regards to hitting enfs running away lol.

I guess if people can't argue against the suggestion they just try to argue against the person.

[Szyylin]

Ahem.

There's a massive difference in sacrifice between what MAs/Fixers/Advies give up for SD and what Keepers/Shades have to give up for SD.

In fact, there's no comparison at all. Laughable evades or laughable and non existent offense, or no healing...yeah.

As evidenced by plenty of Fixers/MAs/Advies perking SD and almost no Keepers/Shades perking SD and if they do, they're utter cannon fodder for those that don't rely on or even have CC tools for PvP.

Advies perk SD because once they have perked their "standard" stuff, they have enough perk points left to perk SD. MAs and fixers i honestly don't know what they perk, you tell me.

Still, if roots and snares are bad enough to justify starting 100 threads about how roots should be nerfed, just perk SD already.

[sultryvoltron]

I guess if people can't argue against the suggestion they just try to argue against the person.

Your OP doesn't provide a single argument as to why these things should change beyond "It's too far, mkay?"

AOE roots, snares, mezzes should cap at 20m.
AOE effects should be no more than 15m [radius].
Roots and snares cap at 40m.
Mezzes cap at 40m (no point in having a mezz if you have to get in agging range).
Stuns cap at 25m.
Debuffs cap at 20m.
Nukes cap at 40m.
Ranged attacks could vary with weapon type/single or dual wield weps. I'd prefer 40m cap as the range wep advantage.
Ranged specials vary based on special type, AS at 40m while Full Auto would be 20m as an example.
Melee attacks 6m. (melee has several ways of increasing range and I don't see the balance in 10-15m melee ranges in the future)
Taunts cap at 40m.
Heals and buffs cap at 40m.

AOE effect of 15m radius is reasonable.

Roots and snares need 40m range. Durations are being looked at to be short. Any nerf in range could potentially allow any melee profession to run up and stomp the poor CC profession who relies on range to have any chance because of extremely low toe-to-toe tanking abilities.

Mezz, completely and totally whatever in every way.

Does anyone other than crats cast nano stuns? The 110%+ def check and long recharge on them deserves 40m range.

What debuffs? Very dumb to slap a generic cap of 20m on them.

Nukes, perfect at 40m. Due to vertical tracking they can already shoot over 40m anyways.

A serious look should be taken at the range of different ranged/melee weapons and specials. There is currently NO resemblance of logic behind alot of ranges.

Melee at 6 meters? Really? What's the reasoning behind that? 6 meters is nearly the size of three human beings. Do you have a reason for suggesting it be so high?

Taunts and heals are fine at 40m.

[Gatester]

Your OP doesn't provide a single argument as to why these things should change beyond "It's too far, mkay?"


AOE effect of 15m radius is reasonable.

Roots and snares need 40m range. Durations are being looked at to be short. Any nerf in range could potentially allow any melee profession to run up and stomp the poor CC profession who relies on range to have any chance because of extremely low toe-to-toe tanking abilities.

Mezz, completely and totally whatever in every way.

Does anyone other than crats cast nano stuns? The 110%+ def check and long recharge on them deserves 40m range.

What debuffs? Very dumb to slap a generic cap of 20m on them.

Nukes, perfect at 40m. Due to vertical tracking they can already shoot over 40m anyways.

A serious look should be taken at the range of different ranged/melee weapons and specials. There is currently NO resemblance of logic behind alot of ranges.

Melee at 6 meters? Really? What's the reasoning behind that? 6 meters is nearly the size of three human beings. Do you have a reason for suggesting it be so high?

Taunts and heals are fine at 40m.

Thank you Sultry.

Stun nanos get used more frequently at lower levels, and they make it very easy to kite players who cannot go full def or NR. I use stuns very effectively at lower levels and I do not mind having it adjusted.

I was going for all debuffs, IRT, BR, GTH, trader drains, UBT, NSD. Nukes with debuffs would not be effected, and I cannot think of any particular debuffs that would need a 40m range. I feel that if a player is going to use a crippling debuff on you, you should have more time to be aware of the other profession or get in close enough range to fight back. Even with cooldowns in the future, most profs still die incredibly quickly in AO when debuffed.

6meters accounts for large 2handed weapons like spears, swords, hammers. It also accounts for the effects of %scaled players. Just to let everyone know, not only does range increase effect melee range, but %scale has a significant impact on range too. It is possible to hit 10-15m melee ranges with standard weapons, and that does not make sense.


Besides the fact that players can get several debuffs off on a player at lower levels, or chain root them and kill them at 40m, I also see lowering the range caps as a way to reduce kiting effectiveness against all players. When half of AO requires a melee range for pvp, I feel it is unfair that profs can have such an advantage in distance. I do not mind some ranged advantages, but a total ranged dominance is a bit much. PVP should include more fighting, and less avoiding fights.

If players cannot survive at close range, then the professions need further balancing in survival or more effecient means of maintaining distance that is not dominant over any particular profession.

[Hacre]

Er, lowbies are only hitting 40m on stuff if they're wearing a range deck (thus losing NCU) or have had Notum Overload stuffed in their NCU (thus losing NCU).

Even with full 300 symbs in my 220 Crat loses NCU to cap range and people with long ranges on offensive nanos, with the exception of Fixers, have s**t runspeed.

Some professions don't/can't stand toe to toe, it isn't a design flaw, it's just the way they are.

We don't all want to be Enforcers.

[Gatester]

Er, lowbies are only hitting 40m on stuff if they're wearing a range deck (thus losing NCU) or have had Notum Overload stuffed in their NCU (thus losing NCU).

Even with full 300 symbs in my 220 Crat loses NCU to cap range and people with long ranges on offensive nanos, with the exception of Fixers, have s**t runspeed.

Some professions don't/can't stand toe to toe, it isn't a design flaw, it's just the way they are.

We don't all want to be Enforcers.

Well you guys are supposed to help out on this part with some input on which profs truly need a ranged advantage. I know crats do, and I know fixers have to be able to kite most profs. Other than that I have a hard time seeing why ranged should have an advantage over melee. Should melee and ranged not be equal?

Any advantage at all, when soldiers, NTs, traders, engineers, doctors, MPs (not bow lol), w/e are fighting toe-to-toe with profs just as well as any melee, it makes me think there is something unfair here. That is not to say I would force your NT to stay in melee range against multiple attackers, that is why your CC tools need adjustment to limit the "crowds". I simply want to tone down the 1 on 1 advantage that honestly should not exist. Afterall ranged gear is already way better than melee

uh huh and so is the 3k nr, 4k def, 3k AR thing yeah? You're just clueless about all profs even your enf. Who wears scouts lmao.

And you gonna say you swap it out for cc? Oh and do you also swap out your gimp symbs to alphas for pvp as well? awwwww thought not.

You know Harios, the enforcer professional, wore scouts sleeves right? Besides, if saving nanoskills so I can wear +50AAD utils items, and getting +27 evades at the same time on a pure PVM enforcer is dumb, well I can understand why you have so much trouble. Afterall, you didn't even know how an MA can hit 2800 static NR.

Martial Artist are the nerfest
2813 AR = 3033 AR with Moonmist
~2750 NR+900 from a QL200 UWOS = ~3650 NR
~3700 evades+200 from limber/DoF = ~3900 def (less duck, more evade, dodge in the middle)

Well I will take a small hit and say I was wrong, MAs can only hit 3k AR, 3.9k def, and 3.6k NR. Sure I forgot some NR1 and the buff the first time and used FoD insetad of alpha left wrist, since it wasn't exactly a hard thought calc I just rounded off. Either way here are the stats, you said it was not possible and pretty much here it is. If we were making truly perfect setups the stats would obviously be different.

You cannot keep complaining about MA, there is no basis for it in regards to your stats, only things like healing recharge, not being able to go 1/1 at full def, and maybe runspeed.

[Hacre]

Um yes I'm well aware that MAs can get 2800 static NR with some sacrifices, such as sacrifices to AR and/or defense you tard. What you claimed is that MAs can have everything at once and you claimed 3k NR not 2800.

And yes you are wrong, as usual.

And noone ever said MAs are the nerfest, just your stupid assumptions, I dare you to find where I said MAs are the nerfest.

And lol at that stupid MA setup you posted, really, good luck perking good traders or agents even WITH moonmist, hell even some enfs will be unperkable if you don't have moonmist up.

Also another impossible scenario is swapping a ql 300 spear without a full set of cc and/or prisoner robe. <-- get a clue.

In that setup, if an NT lands Dazzle on the MA, even with MM up, no perky perky.

[Ocene]

Across the board the range cap is 40 meters. That means at about 8 times the maximum range of any melee action, a player can use any ranged action to affect a player. Several perks and abilities also have a shorter 5-20ish meter range, which is at a major disadvantage to someone with debuffs, attacking range, nukes, or CC tools that can be used from the capped distance.

It takes time to go from 40m to 5m distance from an opponent, especially when they choose to keep that distance by moving ahead of you. Now I know its easy to spam Root Grafts, since they don't have a 15minute lockout or anything, but I'm hoping we can find a more reasonable management of the ranged advantage.

Assuming that it also becomes harder to permanently kite someone, and only stop to spam your 14000 heal or your ranged special, I think the capped ranges for various abilities should be adjusted individually. I'll throw some numbers out and everyone can decide if it sounds good or not enough/too much. Be forewarned I have used or currently have every profession for pvp and pvm purposes except Crats, so if you are full of it in a reply saying "we have to have 40m on all these abilities" I will know.

Now the list:

AOE roots, snares, mezzes should cap at 20m.
AOE effects should be no more than 15m [radius].
Roots and snares cap at 40m.
Mezzes cap at 40m (no point in having a mezz if you have to get in agging range).
Stuns cap at 25m.
Debuffs cap at 20m.
Nukes cap at 40m.
Ranged attacks could vary with weapon type/single or dual wield weps. I'd prefer 40m cap as the range wep advantage.
Ranged specials vary based on special type, AS at 40m while Full Auto would be 20m as an example.
Melee attacks 6m. (melee has several ways of increasing range and I don't see the balance in 10-15m melee ranges in the future)
Taunts cap at 40m.
Heals and buffs cap at 40m.


Let the flaming begin, but leave the you are a melee toon pissed at being debuffed and chain rooted at 40m comments at the door, because you are damn right it pisses me off and there is no point bringing it up. On that same note I feel just like a cheater when I can chain root people on my tl2 toons and completely dominate groups of people because they can't do much about closing that 40m gap before I reroot them and pick them off. People should be forced into range of each other.

Given how everyone runs faster than me (I play soldier). I'd say no.

[Venachar]

29 posts removed. That's a shocking state of affairs. Remember this forum is a constructive forum and there is no place for personal combat in here.

[Gatester]

29 posts removed. That's a shocking state of affairs. Remember this forum is a constructive forum and there is no place for personal combat in here.

What took you so long Did some self editing too, hopefully I cleared out anything that would lead to further off topic issues.


Anyways I forgot to address the point brought up by Hacre about hitting capped ranges. At lower levels most of the better twinks use range increasers for weps or casting to hit the 40m cap. For towers, if possible, you can get a low NCU req buff from an NT to hit capped range, and swap off the computer deck range increaser. I hotswap a Memory Loop for 33 NCU on my agent when needed, so it isn't too much of a sacrifice for a major boost.


I was also considering a difference between ranged weapons. Rather than having them all at a 40m cap, the heavy weapons can keep the 40m range while the light artillery weps can have 25-30m cap. This would give players a more tactical choice between using a duel-wield setup that usually has a great deal of advantages, or having a very strong advantage in maybe an assault rifle or a bow. I would apply the same to melee weps, 4m for duel wield maybe instead of 6m for the larger weps.

What I would hope everyone realizes from this thread is that if every prof is adjusted, every player can benefit. When other profs casting ranges are decreased as well as your own, there is a better chance you can prepare for the other player. Out of all my current twinks I have:

2 Agents
2 MPs
1 Engineer
1 NT
1 Ranged advy
1 Fixer
2 Traders

I can see as much benefit on everyone of those profs, none of which are melee, from a condensed ranged cap as I may suffer for it. If I have trouble dominating players easily from capped ranges just for more fairness in pvp then so be it.

[sultryvoltron]

Stun nanos get used more frequently at lower levels, and they make it very easy to kite players who cannot go full def or NR. I use stuns very effectively at lower levels and I do not mind having it adjusted.

Hmm... I'm going to pull the "let's wait and see" card here. I don't find stun nanos very useful at all currently, except from when I messed around with my NT at TL2. If the design of the nanos change in a drastic way, then a discussion of range will be more applicable. Until then, I still support 40m range on them due to high checks and long recharges.

I was going for all debuffs, IRT, BR, GTH, trader drains, UBT, NSD. Nukes with debuffs would not be effected, and I cannot think of any particular debuffs that would need a 40m range. I feel that if a player is going to use a crippling debuff on you, you should have more time to be aware of the other profession or get in close enough range to fight back. Even with cooldowns in the future, most profs still die incredibly quickly in AO when debuffed.

See, debuffs such as Bullseye and LICC should be at least 25m range, perhaps more. If you get close enough to use perks, you should also be close enough to cast your nano that enables you to land perks.

Crat tapes are generally fine at 40m. Their runspeed is terribad. Same with Docs. If the Doc has to get close to debuff, they are WAY too close to the action. Malp can have a shorter distance though. This is especially true if the Doctor chooses the "debuff cyberdeck style".

Drains... No word really on how these will change in the future of AO. I'm half-heartedly expecting a nerf in duration. Again, wait and see for me.

Nemesis nanos... yes, generic 20m cap.

So again, a generic 20m cap seems bad to me, but it wouldn't be bad to look into adjusting the ranges down.

6meters accounts for large 2handed weapons like spears, swords, hammers. It also accounts for the effects of %scaled players. Just to let everyone know, not only does range increase effect melee range, but %scale has a significant impact on range too. It is possible to hit 10-15m melee ranges with standard weapons, and that does not make sense.

Interesting...

Besides the fact that players can get several debuffs off on a player at lower levels, or chain root them and kill them at 40m, I also see lowering the range caps as a way to reduce kiting effectiveness against all players. When half of AO requires a melee range for pvp, I feel it is unfair that profs can have such an advantage in distance. I do not mind some ranged advantages, but a total ranged dominance is a bit much. PVP should include more fighting, and less avoiding fights.

That seems unrealistic that low level characters (other than NTs maybe? Pretty sure I was close to 35m) are hitting the 40m cap on nanos. Maybe it's an RK2 thing though.

If players cannot survive at close range, then the professions need further balancing in survival or more effecient means of maintaining distance that is not dominant over any particular profession.

Like Hacre said, not all professions are Enforcers. Some are, and should be, designed around not getting hit by not being near the other person. This will be largely balanced in the new system.

Along with that, I'm hoping that Crats get some form of emergency defense for when CC simply fails. Also, I would hope NTs lose some (not all, some) of their survivability given the new local cooldown system that will allow them to use CC, Def tools (including NS2 with no self-root, also layers), and Nukes simultaneously. Currently, that is the one justification for their high def rating and powerful defensive nanos. I forsee many Agents moving away from Doc (if FC does the mimic changes right), thus being more squishy and needing the CC tools.

[Gatester]

Hmm... I'm going to pull the "let's wait and see" card here. I don't find stun nanos very useful at all currently, except from when I messed around with my NT at TL2. If the design of the nanos change in a drastic way, then a discussion of range will be more applicable. Until then, I still support 40m range on them due to high checks and long recharges.

I really am not sure on stuns either. I was simply going to limit them to the same range as CC tools but I don't see many people that bother to use them. Being able to chain nano stuns+perk stuns, or using them on my MP I use them effectively, but perhaps the high chance to land is enough justification for the range.

See, debuffs such as Bullseye and LICC should be at least 25m range, perhaps more. If you get close enough to use perks, you should also be close enough to cast your nano that enables you to land perks.

Crat tapes are generally fine at 40m. Their runspeed is terribad. Same with Docs. If the Doc has to get close to debuff, they are WAY too close to the action. Malp can have a shorter distance though. This is especially true if the Doctor chooses the "debuff cyberdeck style".

Drains... No word really on how these will change in the future of AO. I'm half-heartedly expecting a nerf in duration. Again, wait and see for me.

Nemesis nanos... yes, generic 20m cap.

So again, a generic 20m cap seems bad to me, but it wouldn't be bad to look into adjusting the ranges down.

The specific listing of each nano would be very long, but I would definately agree with varying ranges on different prof toolsets. 20m is the amount I would like for crippling effects, which can include nemesis nanos.

That seems unrealistic that low level characters (other than NTs maybe? Pretty sure I was close to 35m) are hitting the 40m cap on nanos. Maybe it's an RK2 thing though.

Almost all twinks in tl2 BS utilize 40m casting range. That includes MPs, NTs, Agents, and Traders usually. Soldiers, agents, and traders also have 40m weapon range if they are ranged.

So it is very common on RK2, and I abuse it quite well

Along with that, I'm hoping that Crats get some form of emergency defense for when CC simply fails. Also, I would hope NTs lose some (not all, some) of their survivability given the new local cooldown system that will allow them to use CC, Def tools (including NS2 with no self-root, also layers), and Nukes simultaneously. Currently, that is the one justification for their high def rating and powerful defensive nanos. I forsee many Agents moving away from Doc (if FC does the mimic changes right), thus being more squishy and needing the CC tools.

Currently I don't see enough done to help crats. NT's defenses are going to get a massive boost to their survival and their nukes get revamped to an unsure style. Agents will hopefully have more options, and anything outside soldier or doctor I believe would require a great deal of kiting.

What will have to be determined, is how effective one prof uses tools compared to others. In other words, how well should agents or fixers be able to make use of CC tools in comparison to Crats. Range is one aspect of balancing that can determine a ranking for professions in the use of their core toolsets. Without much information from FC it can be hard to make judgements now but, we can at least discuss the possiblities.

[Leevon]

well slightly related, but I always wondered why the fastest profs were the ones with the most resist/removable of roots/snares, seems like it should be the other way around.

i think the same thing, why do the range toons get the roots/snares and as well get the root and snare breaks wtb melee love with the new parry/riposte

[-Klod-]

i think the same thing, why do the range toons get the roots/snares and as well get the root and snare breaks wtb melee love with the new parry/riposte

I'm ranged and I don't have those root/snare breakers you guys talk about, not even roots/snares.

[X-Styx-X]

ya'll say keepers and shade have problems with roots :O ?

http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=270795

ain't that ingame ?

and shades have SNEAK
maybe fc didn't gave em root breaking nanos so they HAVE to sneak.
If ya run around like ur a enforcer u'll get rooted ofc

condensing shade perks is a nice idea thou

but whats the point of roots if they ain't effective vs anything ?

[Szyylin]

You would make sense if sneak speed wasn't so mind numbingly slow. Also, being chain rooted is one of the crappiest things there is, especially for a melee profession.

Everyone has to have their weaknesses. I'm sure that as a MA you noticed that agents are vulnerable to init debuffs. Fine by me.

If shades need a fix, it's an increase of AR. Nothing more funny than a shade that can't perk you. The weakness to roots should remain IMO. Shade = toon with one billion perks that will destroy you in 3 seconds IF they get into range, that's how i see it. high AR, huge perks, but rootable.