Nemesis Nanos Balance

[RmikClan]

Not so much true for PvP doctors. PvP setups have less +healeff than PvM setups.

If you look at it isolated one BI (~12k) heals roughly 1.5 cap'ed specials with a setup of 25k HP. -50% healeff would take that down to not even being able to heal a single cap, and there're definetly a lot of those coming our way. Remember that doctors survive only by out-healing and nothing else. Damage mitigation (UBT) is no longer a viable part of our tool set, since it hardly affects anyone's dmg anymore.


Above reply explains it pretty much. I have to add though, that I didn't say that Misdiagnosis was imbalanced, but merely that it was a pain and one of the medium powered nemesis nanos. Medium powered is idealy where we should be, since it would otherwise be over or under powered.

Im a PVP only...i dont care about pvm at all and my doc setup has around 45% extra heal eff (14.5k CH) and i didnt even care about the heal eff when i made the setup....so that debuffs leaves me with 95% of my heals which together with ICH is more than enough to heal anything....most of times i dont even notice i have that debuff running

not to mention it only lasts 15 secs :O

[Burgly]

# Adventurer
Heal modifier -50

thats no nemesis nano....docs get so much heal eff this days that we barely feel that debuff


as a doc i suggest to even increase this to -75% to give advs a small chance to kill us

Leave it as it is, advys got godmode over enuff profs already

[RmikClan]

Leave it as it is, advys got godmode over enuff profs already

hey i just want advs to accept my duels :/

[Esqi]

Dont forget that some profs have such low nano skill AR and virtually no nanoc init, that even casting the nano's (time?) is a pointless exercise?

They should all be fast casting (insta?) with 90% NR check, regardless of profession.

[Technogen]

They should all be fast casting (insta?) with 90% NR check, regardless of profession.

Yes I agree, they should all be a high land rate but due to both lockout and target lockout require some thought before using them.

[2423423]

They should all be fast casting (insta?) with 90% NR check, regardless of profession.

Except that gives casters 10x better chances of landing these nanos, literally.

Some caster classes don't need even more love than the already massive ammounts they have gotten.

[XenonDe]

Casters don't really want nemesis nanos. They are in nanorecharge all the time allready and have no time to spend spamming nemesis nanos. Let's see how local recharge helps with that (lower general recharge hopefully). I certainly don't want to be hit by a nanoskill debuff on nano casting professions either.


Best nemesis nano balance is removing them.

[bitnykk]

Best nemesis nano balance is balance them.

(see, i also can make "1 line" super constructive post !)

[XenonDe]

Right. Because obviously I have only written one line and nothing else.
I do believe removing them and scraping the idea of making them general debuffs is best. I don't need you to agree with me either. I don't care.

[Drakeep]

Removing em all might be a smarter move, since FC has a lot of work with all the rest allrdy. They might not waste time on those. Sure they can be balanced instead of removed, but let's keep that for later Be soft with these guys, they barely know what they doin allrdy.

[Avari]

...

Since when has: "Let's wait and see" helped anything. Approaching this with a laissez-faire attitude is just about the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

By stating that one supports the notion of removing the nanos, you state that you want to remove them in their current state, and the current idea behind them. I honestly dislike the idea, that everyone should have a nemesis. What happens when there's 2-4 of my nemesis present on BS? Where does balance go then? Nemesis is just paper-rock-scissors with 14 options.

I think we'll see the nemesis nanos being reworked into a completely different state, which will practically mean the nanos we've got now are removed, but in theory they've "just" been altered. Same name perhaps, but completely different content.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

the nemesis nanos were put in due to some very obvious prof imbalances.

Some of them still exist, regardless of nemesis nanos or not.

I don't think that removing or fixing them is as simple as what some people think.

For example, there is such a massive imbalance between some profs that if the nemesis nanos weren't there, there would be absolutely no hope. Case in point:

TL5 keeper vs agent FP doc.

In a 20 minute fight, spamming nemesis, the agent only won the fight because of one resisted nemesis cast. Consider the obvious: The agent can EASILY outheal numerous alpha attempts by keeper. In the one single time when the nano was resisted, the agent could easily alpha the keeper.

In other words, the fight was even until the nemesis cast was resisted, and then it was a single alpha game over. So, take away the nemesis nano, and it's a blowout, badly, and brutally. An agent can outheal a keeper alpha 20/20 times using every timing of CH as I possibly could, and brawl stun, nothing worked. Thats when you know keepers really need a stun/ init debuff.

[Hacre]

The proposal for the NT one is highly useless. Killing/blocking rage for 15s is the primary reason to use that nano and 15s duration is already on the short side given how long it takes to drop an Enforcer.

Restrain Enthusiasm is probably one of the better Nemesis nanos, effect is highly useful but not utterly debilitating to the Enforcer.

[zartosht]

Just remove the nemesis nanos please.

[Avari]

especially prior to rebalance where they're opening dialog with players.

And here we are, giving our oppinion on what should happen, and you're saying "let's wait and see". We're saying, remove or drastically alter the nano formulas in their current form with the current idea behind them, and you're saying "let's wait and see". I'd like to be pro-active and say a lot should happen with them, not just putting them on a local cool down and/or slightly alter the numbers.

not at all. idk how you're stating that from what i wrote.

I didn't say that you said anything. I said that "if one supports XXXXXX then you YYYYY" where "you" refers back to the "someone" and not to you specifically.

Im a PVP only...i dont care about pvm at all and my doc setup has around 45% extra heal eff (14.5k CH) and i didnt even care about the heal eff when i made the setup....so that debuffs leaves me with 95% of my heals which together with ICH is more than enough to heal anything....most of times i dont even notice i have that debuff running

not to mention it only lasts 15 secs :O

I have 44% +healeff, but that's not really the point. The point is that my absolute healing power is cut in half. Which leaves me with avg 6k BIs when chaining.

[XenonDe]

TL5 keeper vs agent FP doc.

Heh, difficult example as tl5 keepers are having more problems then nemesis nanos and a generally worse of for pvp at that level. TL5 Agents are at the peak of the performance though. Not saying that is right but keeper having bigger problems and need of help then the nemesis nano

The example of the nemesis nano is interesting though. It certainly doesn't make keeper a nemesis agents. Widening the nemesis nano to make it a aao debuff though is trader territory and will end up making keepers dependant on the nano as it will have be considered in for further balance. So currently we have near useless nanos like the keeper or shade ones but widening them we end up with every profession having dependency on the nanos and a plethora of new debuffs in a game where everyone complains about too many debuffs allready.

[erozc]

I have 44% +healeff, but that's not really the point. The point is that my absolute healing power is cut in half. Which leaves me with avg 6k BIs when chaining.

144% - 50% = 94%

94%/144% = ~0,65

Not quite half

Average BI according to auno.org (no heal eff). : 8667 (1444.50 hp/sec)
Average BI with 94% total heal efficiency: 8147 (1358 hp/sec)
Minimum BI heal: without heal mod 8017, with Misdiagnosis and 44% additional heal eff 7536.

Saying it's average 6k is like saying that triples hit for over 9000 every single time. Actually, it's like saying they hit for over 10k every single time.

I am posting this because biased or misinformative numbers don't do anyone much good.

[bitnykk]

{removed by Anarrina}

They do have a point bit, the nemesis nano concept was flawed from day one

like a lot of other things ingame, ofc
i agree the removal partisans can have some points, eg i totally agree on the spam capabilities of certain nanos : that must go away (cooldown inc !).

but imo the nemesis nanos are a good concept in the frame of the PVP extension that LE was introduced for. i also 100% agree that some need nerf & some need bump or drastical change.

for me these should be a trick you can use 1 time per fight, like blue hhab rightclic : your personal cooldown on it should be like 3-5 min, not less, so it's an option you keep preciously.
these shouldn't be castable on a target recently affected by your specific nemesis (by another of your profession colleague) : target cooldown should be of 1-2 minutes or so (not more to avoid sploits w flagged friend etc ...).
last but not least : these should be more balanced than now. idk if they should be castable on all or only 1 profession like now, but they all should take account of the caster and target profession capabilities for balancing.

eg i already gave :
- enfo casting evade debuff is non-sensed with AR+AAO they can reach
- borrowing reflect is OP for a profession with hugest skill+AAO debuffs IG
- healing debuffs need to be revisited in the new balance context
- some nanos are just annoyant (remove essence, dot morphed, debuff nanos) while some are crippling the target too efficiently (rifle, smg, piercing, aura)
- prolly the debuffs should be in percent instead of fixed values (tl4/5/7 !) like new borrow means posted

finally, i'd like to see more remove target NCU stuff than AR debuffs. that's only my opinion. ideas :
- evade MA debuff should be given to a prof with low AR (doc ? idk ...)
- borrow reflect given to a prof with low DEF (nt ? agt ?)
- nano debuff should contain init debuff to become more useful in TL7
- sold should remove something on shade instead of piercing (proc ?)
- engi nemesis could remove fixer short hots (proc included)
- same for keeper on agent
etc ...

@anarrina : you were right to clean that.