Friday with Means - Light at the end of the tunnel - February 26th, 2010

[NoGoal]

So, how can that be changed? Well, if we must stick with %, then if possible it could be % of remaining pool to be drained, not max pool. This would result in a deminishing strength drain over time.

Could work but it needs a higher % then. It would also be nice to 'steal' the buffing part if you manage to kill the trader while GTH (or its cooldown?) is running.

[Klod9003]

What's so hard to understand about a bad idea being rejected?

So, using another bad idea (read: debuffs for everyone, by everyone, if you didn't get it) as a foundation is the right way to go?

[Mastablasta]

So, using another bad idea (read: debuffs for everyone, by everyone, if you didn't get it) as a foundation is the right way to go?

Since that's how the game has managed to run for almost 9 years, I don't see why not.

[Dsmtrader01]

7000 nano a second is only if you have like a 46k+ pool, for me it'd only be about 5200 nano a second, but then as it's a % count it doesn't matter how much pool you have, everyone, even the guy with 2000 pool will have his pool emptied in 7 seconds. This turns us right back to the old abuse of low numbers, only for NTs it won't really be possible to do so as many rely on their pool for survival.
So, how can that be changed? Well, if we must stick with %, then if possible it could be % of remaining pool to be drained, not max pool. This would result in a deminishing strength drain over time.
Or a set amount of nano drained, perhaps based on level, so a highest level trader might drain 2000 nano / second from a player, but a lvl 215 trader will only drain 1500. That way you'd drain 30000 nano over a period of 15 seconds, which would empty most people's pool 3 times over instead of 2 times. Because of the varying pool sizes and ways of nanoregen the new GTH is more benign on some targets, allowing them to more easily return to form, after all a soldier only needs enough nano to cast AMS to be in business. Many need only small or similar amounts as their in-combat nanos are from pre-SL, or early SL, and not full of huge nanocosts put in on later nanos.
But what about when you have all the fancy nano regen tools that NTs have? I have about 245 nanodelta, maybe that's a tiny bitless than it really is (I think it's 247), but for a thought experiment, let's use it. That's 245 nano every 2 seconds, now in that 15 second we can get maybe one tick from PNH +235 (15 second ticks), Notum Siphon ticks 3 times for 417 (at NS10, 4ish sec ticks). That's 1715 (nd) + 235 (pnh) + 1251 (ns) = 3201 over that 15 seconds. That's not all that much. With Tap Notum Source you can gain an extra 2800 nano, 7350 nano in SL, but in the future that will change, and with Nano Heal up to 4000. An extra 1000 if you have Regain Nano. Not all that much compared to a drain of 90000 on a 45k pool, but since it's over time it'll not prevent you completely from doing things. A little rough in its current itteration, but I hope it'll see some changes.

All things said, it's less than what it used to be. Even if the individual ticks might be worse, then previously it just snatched your pool instantly.



Why? Because obviously it was a bad idea to have "nemesis" nanos, and there is such a thing as TOO MUCH rock/paper/scissors. So, rework into something useful that isn't totally overpowered. I don't see what's so hard to understand about a nerf for something that's totally overpowered and a desire to see it in a working state instead of a perpetual whine totem. What's so hard to understand about a bad idea being rejected?

Sounds to me like you are the ones who want to be OP... I mean a NSII that doesn't root? So you wanna run around 100% impervious to dmg and not worry about someone stealing your nano? lol I know a couple NT's that even now, they can kill me within the time it takes for my GTH to deplete them. Then they just run into a BY and wait it out.

[Mastablasta]

Sounds to me like you are the ones who want to be OP... I mean a NSII that doesn't root? So you wanna run around 100% impervious to dmg and not worry about someone stealing your nano? lol I know a couple NT's that even now, they can kill me within the time it takes for my GTH to deplete them. Then they just run into a BY and wait it out.

Where exactly did you read any of that? Maybe you should try reading again and understand the purpose of the post. And on top of that, you go on to base an argument on things that are just lose ideas so far for a future that you don't know anything about. Immune to damage and so what? For 10 seconds? What will NT damage be like in the future? How will nano be required? You basically start blundering about in unknowns when I was talking only in knowns relating to the current state of affairs.
Your trolling skills are really bad.

[Klod9003]

Since that's how the game has managed to run for almost 9 years, I don't see why not.

I wish them good luck. :shrug:

[PhoenixOfAges]

Not minded at you, but just a general comment, that if you can't be bothered to participate in the debate, then you can't complain about not being heard either. Just like you can't complain about the government if you don't vote.

There are some in game even with pay accounts that don't know who Means or any of the other devs both past or present are. They just don't come to the forums at all and if you don't come routinely how are you to know what's being discussed?

Then as Mikenche said these "discussions" on the forums can just be shouting matches that degenerate to flaming when people don't agree. The active screamers would repeat their views over and over and may start multiple threads to get their points across. All that yelling gave me a headache so I haven't really even looked in the balance forum for some time. I know at least one other forum regular that feels the same way.

Voting though is just you indicating your decision to the ones collecting everyone's info with no need to be concerned with the opinions of others. Also if it was made clear and present to everyone that plays such as through a log-in window survey everyone playing would know about it and everyone could get heard.

As both sides have access to same professions and items, aside from a few items and SB, group vs group is already balanced.

The re-balancing isn't about group vs group or prof vs prof but about tools. Some tools have too long duration, effects, etc or are too powerful when combined with others.

This is different from what I said how? I did say it was a "game rebalance, not only PvP but about everything else is being adjusted too." Also that they always have aimed PvP balance for group vs group. So they're adjusting player aspects that are too strong or too weak and also plan on adjusting mobs too from what I gather. Everything that is worth taking a look at and adjusted may end up being adjusted.

This is as opposed to those that claim it's a PvP rebalance and seem to think it's to provide 1vs1 PvP balance. If you scroll around in this and other threads discussing the rebalance you can see people saying that's what they think it's for.

There are more professions with auras than professions with reflects. So I don't see how it couldn't work. Now if only DR was removing active part of the aura and not passive one...

Except for the big self only ones reflect nanos can be shared and are likely the most commonly asked for buff in PvP and PvM. So that can affect everyone, just soldiers more than others.

The true annoyance of Defeat Righteousness from what I gather is that it completely removes the auras so the keeper must buff them again later. Others can receive the aura effect from friendly chars in the area and some have auras of their own but their auras aren't as big of a part of their tool set as keepers. Closest any other prof would come would be crats I suppose.

[schloops]

lol I know a couple NT's that even now, they can kill me within the time it takes for my GTH to deplete them. Then they just run into a BY and wait it out.

Haha, where to start?

[Crowena]

Not minded at you, but just a general comment, that if you can't be bothered to participate in the debate, then you can't complain about not being heard either. Just like you can't complain about the government if you don't vote.

Another thing I would like to point out is that some people who have quit playing are still very vocal in the forums. Sometimes it seems almost that there are those who play(ed) the game and then there are those that participate in the forums.

[Alternity]

Please for the sake of everything that is evil, let the damn nemesis nanos die!


They are not wanted, the prospect of even more debuffs working on anything that moves is horrific!
Like my agent (when in NR1) did not pick up debuffs from 5 classes in a flash, I can't really see how 8 or 10 classes debuffing me is gonna make PvP any more fun.


Part of the problem FunCom is that you either go overboard, or you release something that won't be used.
Therefore the prospect on nemesis nanos that are cast-able on all professions, is turning my blood cold.
Sorry but I do not think you will be able to balance a general debuff, one for each professions usable on every profession, and have at least some impact on all professions some more than others.


Debuff wars 2010, that's what Anarchy Online is going to revolve around.



Viz

[Technogen]

Unless, you know a really easy solution is found, like creating a blocker on the target so you dont get debuffed by everyone at once, or even a few seconds after being debuffed by someone.

Teams would actually have to think about what they are doing and work as a team, it would be horrible!

[Alternity]

Unless, you know a really easy solution is found, like creating a blocker on the target so you dont get debuffed by everyone at once, or even a few seconds after being debuffed by someone.

Teams would actually have to think about what they are doing and work as a team, it would be horrible!

And how does that differ from "Debuff Wars 2010" then we'll only have a constant monitoring of the teams buffs/debuffs, what's needed to refresh, what's needed to be cast on the enemy.


Sure if this was a turnbased PvP team game, we could do that. But seeing how fast even team PvP goes, I really don't see the need to add another layer of crap on top of it.
You want more people to be able to get into PvP, not scare them away with expanded mechanics that require you to monitor even more stuff.

[Technogen]

This isnt an FPS it's information wars, and it is turn based the turns are just in real time.

[Alternity]

This isnt an FPS it's information wars, and it is turn based the turns are just in real time.

Great reply!



If that's the only thing you've got to add, I'll just assume that I am right.

[Technogen]

Just because you assume something doesn't mean it is. So, please continue to assume something.

[Mikenche]

Except for the big self only ones reflect nanos can be shared and are likely the most commonly asked for buff in PvP and PvM. So that can affect everyone, just soldiers more than others.

The true annoyance of Defeat Righteousness from what I gather is that it completely removes the auras so the keeper must buff them again later. Others can receive the aura effect from friendly chars in the area and some have auras of their own but their auras aren't as big of a part of their tool set as keepers. Closest any other prof would come would be crats I suppose.

Yeah, DR is definitely broken in that aspect. Since some people seem to be so worried about BR having a wider "target audience" than DR, how about this:

Non-aura profs can receive auras from being near others (keeper and crat being the ones with AoE auras I think), much like they can receive RRFE from a solja. So it makes sense that a shade can remove auras (the buffing part) from anyone. Furthermore, DR itself could be an aura. Let's say 10m radius, ticks every 5 seconds, and also blocks friendly auras from updating for 5 seconds so you'll have to get away from the shade to get your auras back. There shold probably be some kind of cooldown so that the shade can't keep DR running all the time. Maybe 1min duration, after which it's locked for 2 or 3 minutes?

[NoGoal]

Others can receive the aura effect from friendly chars in the area and some have auras of their own but their auras aren't as big of a part of their tool set as keepers. Closest any other prof would come would be crats I suppose.

Non-aura profs can receive auras from being near others (keeper and crat being the ones with AoE auras I think), much like they can receive RRFE from a solja. So it makes sense that a shade can remove auras (the buffing part) from anyone.

My point. Don't think engies, crats and soldiers would like it tho :P These 3 are much more aura reliant than keepers.

But removing blocker/reflects auras from a doc would be nice.

[Alternity]

Just because you assume something doesn't mean it is. So, please continue to assume something.

My "assumption" is based on hard facts, you might say that your retort is also.


The fact remains tho, a team of skilled PvP'ers can today steamroll an entire BS, unless they have a opposing force of the same skill level.
For someone trying to get into PvP, a PvM'er hell even a PvP guy, having a extra layer of complexity placed upon you in a very very fast paced PvP environment, will do only serve to widen the gap, and further raise discontent towards PvP from people who don't dabble with it on a daily basis.

The cause and effect of adding another layer of debuffs, is as simple as this:


The good will get better, and the randoms will still go "WUT?"

[tasker]

My "assumption" is based on hard facts, you might say that your retort is also.


The fact remains tho, a team of skilled PvP'ers can today steamroll an entire BS, unless they have a opposing force of the same skill level.
For someone trying to get into PvP, a PvM'er hell even a PvP guy, having a extra layer of complexity placed upon you in a very very fast paced PvP environment, will do only serve to widen the gap, and further raise discontent towards PvP from people who don't dabble with it on a daily basis.

The cause and effect of adding another layer of debuffs, is as simple as this:


The good will get better, and the randoms will still go "WUT?"

WUT???

[Technogen]

Because the battle station is the only place in all of AO to PvP.

You're over simplafing everything and that is my problem with your argument.