Should "Average" setups exist?

[Gatester]

As I read more and more, and see more feedback from other players, it seems that the only thing complained about more than singularly overpowered abilities or stats are setups that are average or slightly above average in several areas. I'm going to pose the question to everyone and actually avoid commenting if I can (If you lie or misrepresent stats I'm calling you out ) and see what the reactions are. I'm more interested in the mindset of everyone than trying to prove either side wrong. Afterall, if I am in the minority I think it would be better to shift my own goals.

Should "average" setups exist in AO? Should profs be allowed to have moderate evades, damage mitigation, defenses, heals, attack rating, damage etc altogether, or should they be forced to choose a few abilities to have considerable advantages in and almost nothing in others?

Another way to think about it would be, should professions be able to adjust to almost any kind of attack and defense with a single setup, or should setups force players to have considerable advantages in some areas and weaknesses even greater than what we have currently in the rest?

Adventurers or Soldiers should be the closest we have to the two types right now. Both professions can in fact be considered close to balanced as well (disregarding everything other professions have or lack causing imbalance), as adventurers do not excel in any area asside from healing (thus throwing off their completely average level), and soldiers have an extreme on and off defense for damage mitigation but no other considerable defenses as well as an extreme damage reliant offense with no other means of killing opponents (RI does not count ).

That is as much input as I can put forth, try not to nitpick my advy and soldier example if you can lol, in this case its the thought that counts

[Flyingengi]

You mean roll a keeper?

[McKnuckleSamwich]

I'd say that actually keepers and MA's are the closest we have to "average" profs.

Keepers: have average (not good) evades, average (not good) healing, average (slightly better than average) reflects, and average (ok AR, but not enough kill power) offence.

With a well rounded setup, I've found that if you think outside the "mainstream", or outside the "box", you can attain some level of success. If you know your enemy, and you know how to defend, you can prevail, generally, far better on average than if you set up with an extreme setup which would viable only vs certain profs.

Average setup: yes, successful: yes

My MA has: average healing, average reflects, below average offense, average evades, below average HP.

My toon is geared for no hotswap offence, and, lacks significantly in some areas. I wouldn't survive a duel with likely any prof who knew anything about dueling, and, in mass PVP I'm definitly not as strong as I could be.

Average setup: yes, successful: not really.

[Drakeep]

I *think* i would prefer each prof get a versatile defense toolset without totally OP def in a single specialisation, to cut the paper scissor **** mainly (well i think that would be the consequence).

Take NTs :

- buffer tank (no heals at all) is what defines their defense the most IMO. All the def toolset is designed for short fights (in the 30ish), see NT's offense.

Other tools :
Reflects :
1 some cool passive reflect (25% DtN, effectivly reducing pvp cap to 24%)
2 a lame short timed DtN shield : NBG - vaguely OP while running vs low DD prof, while maintaining a "no fun" cooldown. Not fun tool for anyone, imo.
3 NS2

Evade :
1 3Kish dodge passive, 2.8k evade
2 Active evade : AR drain, dazzle, blinds.
3 close to 3k nr in most common setups

Layers :
1 Some more buffer tanks, highly effective versus zerg of weaks opponent, buying you up to 1/2 seconds form time to time
2 NM coon

CC & mobility :
1 the blind + kite combo : if you hide, your opponent can't open a LoS on you unless you want it
2 roots
3 calms for pet, and for player for -init from time to time (adds, solja under AMS while you in NS2...)
4 various snare/blind/root perk that may be usable too
5 moderate runspeed (2.2k self @ endgame approx).

This sounds to me like a decent defensive toolset which use a bit of everything.
Now i would redisegn NBG and NS2 to stop being so one sided, into a weaker version probably with a gentle/removed cooldown.

The only true paper scissor part of NT's defensive toolset is the need to cast nano (NSD), and the need to cast nanos + the DtN (GTH). And that's waht bring tears on forums ^^.


I can see a lot of prof that are too specialised that will go insta splat against some prof while being nearly godmode vs a lot of other, see fix, crat, solja, doc, etc ..

Gief versatile defensive toolset ! but keep the vibe for each prof !


Now what about proposing what s define a prof's def the most ? ll try

- NT : Buffer tank (i like that one)
- enfo : berserker
- agent : sneaky kiters
- solja : AMS
- fix : evade AND meeping
- etc...

[Taranide]

Having variety of setups between poor and excellent when facing a random opponent is the ****e of this game. When you don't have all the creds in the world, you either do best you can etc.

[Mostadio]

I'm not really a fan of "one setup to rule them all". Tbh I wouldn't mind if a prof could do well with a moderate/middle of the road setup or totally rock when focused on one area, either defense or offense or healing or whatever.

Take engineer for example, I always figured that they could go balls to the walls with attack pets that chew through everything and have crazy resists to make them incredibly scary, while sacrificing some of their more powerful shields, or go with heavy shields and craptastic pets, or just lay in the middle of the road with moderately scary pets and tough, but not OP defenses.

Crats could do similar things, big nukes and hardcore CC with gimp pets, or big pets while lacking CC tools.

[Burgly]

Shades can do that, defense or offensive. Oh wait! If we go defensive we cant even perk docs, if we go offense we get perked by docs! :O Something in between works for us vs. some profs tho, even tho everyone with some CC tools eat us. /Whine

<3 Rox

[Omutb]

Should "average" setups exist in AO? Should profs be allowed to have moderate evades, damage mitigation, defenses, heals, attack rating, damage etc altogether, or should they be forced to choose a few abilities to have considerable advantages in and almost nothing in others?

Of course, it should be the majority.

Setups should be either Defensive (has minimal offensive power), Average (well mixed balance between the 2) and Offensive (smells of pee err i mean has lots of offensive power but very little defense).

And there we get Rock, Paper, Scissors PvP

[Eseb]

I think it's better if people had to chose what path to go in with their toons. People should have to pick something to specialize in, it's a major part of RPGs imo. There shouldn't be a jack of all trades setup.

[ElBoogy]

The problem with average setups is, that there are too many items that add to many things.
With an average setup you should have a mixture out of real off/def setups sacrificing both of them, but in ao you can have an average setup with enough stats in everything that you aren´t to inferior to someone who specializes in only one direction..

But in general average setups should exist, we even have a "jack of all trades" profession like adventurer ingame, so i think it would kinda be not fair to give them the possibility to do whatever they want but then force them through equip into only one role.

[NoGoal]

in ao you can have an average setup with enough stats in everything that you aren´t to inferior to someone who specializes in only one direction..

Actually, (almost) all players specialize in defense. Correct me if I'm wrong but this is how I see players equip atm:
- You have 10 professions who are trying to get high evades first then everything else
- 2 who go HP (doc/engi)
- 1 who go AR (sold)
- 1 who pick one of the 3 above (agent)

[Gatester]

Great, I like how this is turning out so far. The only thing I would like to clarify is McKnuckles MA's actual stats so that I know what he considers below average evades and offense. The Keeper profession might actually qualify for the most average profession over adventurer, since at best keeper has a barely above average evade close and on demand healing. So if you want to consider what a true "average" profession is you would use keeper as your example.

[NoGoal]

Keepers have average dodge, bad duck but great close (wouldn't hurt to be higher tho :P).

[Graftmage]

Most professions have "average" (I'd call these kind of setups "balanced", though) setups now. There are few exceptions though: some classes cannot afford to be in balanced setups + they have tools that make them able to be full out offensive or defensive. Good examples of professions that do not use "balanced" setups are solders (full out AR/hp pewpew cause of AMS) and NTs (full out defensive cause of utter squishiness and CB)

[Drakeep]

I tought you meant general prof's toolset, i derived on the def's part of a prof toolset, and everyone else derived on equipment setup.

"Should profs be allowed to have moderate evades, damage mitigation, defenses, heals, attack rating, damage etc altogether, or should they be forced to choose a few abilities to have considerable advantages in and almost nothing in others?"

NT specialises in def in equipment but the end result is a varied (no heal exception) def toolset ?

Sol specialises on AR cause they their def toolset is given for free (almost don t be picky) etc. End result : 1 sided def toolset.

Now take the same solja, roll him NM, give him those passive DtN reflect that are inc, this short timed DtN shield, equipment in evade, and let say give em some decent NR option : bam multi faced toolset, = good ?

Not what we talking about ?

[Gatester]

Consider it a question as to wether all-around boosting gear, and profs that can make use of it and still perform with no particular advantages should be allowed or not.

[Sterva]

Yes. If there is no way to distinguish the elite from the plebs, the elite have no reason to play.

[Marinegent]

Actually, (almost) all players specialize in defense. Correct me if I'm wrong but this is how I see players equip atm:
- You have 10 professions who are trying to get high evades first then everything else
- 2 who go HP (doc/engi)
- 1 who go AR (sold)
- 1 who pick one of the 3 above (agent)

This is about as spot on as your going to get.

[navycut]

My MA has: average healing, average reflects, below average offense, average evades, below average HP.

My toon is geared for no hotswap offence, and, lacks significantly in some areas. I wouldn't survive a duel with likely any prof who knew anything about dueling, and, in mass PVP I'm definitly not as strong as I could be.

Average setup: yes, successful: not really.

Ummm MAs got: Low healing, no reflects, average AR (3k), good evades, HP is both a good and bad thing. I had like 16k HP in my pvm setup, could prob get more if I had on CM.

I can't see how you could classify MA evades as average... I mean unless you were talking about us within the realm of evade professions (crat/adv/fix/shade) then yeah average.

But importantly MAs have:

Good alpha
Better than average NR
horrible run speed (for a melee prof anyway)
low survivability
good/high pvp DPS
low AR - docs can get higher static AR, I saw bomba with like 3.2k AR (QQ)

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Great, I like how this is turning out so far. The only thing I would like to clarify is McKnuckles MA's actual stats so that I know what he considers below average evades and offense. The Keeper profession might actually qualify for the most average profession over adventurer, since at best keeper has a barely above average evade close and on demand healing. So if you want to consider what a true "average" profession is you would use keeper as your example.

Average on MA: endgame everything except ACDC, full CC +ofab pants (not enough AR, not enough Evades, not enough HP) (SD perked for mass PVP)

Keepers have average dodge, bad duck but great close (wouldn't hurt to be higher tho :P).

what dude? Not a chance: Keepers have WAYYYYY SUB Par dodge, SUB par duck, and BARELY above average evade close with procs up. That is a brutal miscontrusion of facts coming from a keeper professional.