Low Level Trader(s) Drains

[kabulla]

Oh, and if your seriously have NR twinked, and you think traders are landing drains all the time on you.... prolly selective memory

I know a trader and a NRperked and setup agent level 30 the agent never resisted drains from the trader...... reason being is you simply can;t not get enough NR compared to nanoskills OB wise there are basicly the same but unless we can ladder NR then there is no hope.

selective memory is not why people say trader drains land its because when you have 636 NR at level 30 (my MP) and http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=85857 that lands on you first try something is seriously wrong... lets think is NR was = nanoskills I would like to see 50:50 land fail chance it seems logical but it is not how it currently works http://pvp.aodb.us/ARDEF/nano_calc.html that is pretty close but still when it comes to certain nanos its inaccurate by more then its 5% error chance

I have 2 traders and have helped create many in my time playing AO from TL2-5 twinks

ok lets do a little thinking here what profession is the master of assualt rifle? anwser soldier

what profession can get the most assualt rifle skill at TL2? anwser trader

does that make any sense at all? how can the profession that is the master of a weapon skill not get more then another profession?

The only exception to this is agents cause the can FP trader.

anyways blah blah blah to any outsider who has never played the game with all the threads posted about the power of trader drains at TL2 it would be obvious seeing as this has been a problem for alot of players including some that have/had TL2 trader (hi Reids) for many years that something needs to change pure and simple.

[Kuegen]

Who gets the most FA? Who has profession locked assault rifles? Who specializes in shotguns yet they must put on QLs several times their level to do decent dmg?

I wasnt clear enough, I went with the assumption that the trader didnt have OSBs. There are also OSB NR buffs, might try testing with those (or did you and you forgot to mention that?)

Again (or did i not say this at all? well, i thought it), Traders arent the problem, they are not OP, play them in PVM and its obvious. OSBs have just as long been OP and some mechanics to change this would be nice, but hard to implement. Just because its hard doesnt mean the trader profession should lose their tool set, or have it nerfed.

[kabulla]

Who gets the most FA? Who has profession locked assault rifles? Who specializes in shotguns yet they must put on QLs several times their level to do decent dmg?

I wasnt clear enough, I went with the assumption that the trader didnt have OSBs. There are also OSB NR buffs, might try testing with those (or did you and you forgot to mention that?)

Again (or did i not say this at all? well, i thought it), Traders arent the problem, they are not OP, play them in PVM and its obvious. OSBs have just as long been OP and some mechanics to change this would be nice, but hard to implement. Just because its hard doesnt mean the trader profession should lose their tool set, or have it nerfed.

the problem with shotgun dmg is its crit reliant that is a problem with the weapon line maybe you should talk about changing oh their dmg is so you don;t have to drain up and put such a high QL weapon on...... sadly your a pvm trader most pvp trader don;t use shotguns.

I am well aware of the fact that weapon specials is a weakness for trader but its not enough to keep them from putting on JAMEs at level 30 where as a soldier can not..... my 636 NR is with OBs but 142 NR buff vs. 160 nanoskill buff not including drains is not exactly what I call even at lvl40+ we can throw in another 40 bring it to 182 vs. 160 + drains still not enough

without their OBs at TL2 trader are no threat to my MP so changing how they would work be more of a nerf then what I am proposing and you wouldn;t be losing your toolset you would still be able to drain.

trader pvm dmg at TL2 is not that bad when you put the same effort other profession do into getting that dmg when I was leveling my trader I ODed my team and tanked Nasc hecks without issue, expensive gear or alot of twinking (110 imps and a 80ish typed Kyr shotgun)

"I wasnt clear enough, I went with the assumption that the trader didnt have OSBs. There are also OSB NR buffs, might try testing with those (or did you and you forgot to mention that?)"

you don't pvp thats why your assumed the trader was self buffed... there are a total of 4 OBs that can buff NR... 2 from a doc (one is locked to lvl40) 1 from advy's (level locked so can;t even be used at TL2) and lastly crat aura (there is a total of 1 TL2 crat twink i can think of at TL2 on RK1 and he doesn't play AO anymore) all of this totals upto a max of 182 NR from buffs at level 40-49 and 142 for lower

now you can say at 30+ you can always perk NR1 which is true but, then that person is giving up 75% of their toolset and you still get drained not exactly worth it no?

[Ciex]

NR simply doesnt work in any pattern. Ive been keeping an eye on my counters to UBT on tl5 enforcer with around 1600 nr and so far it seems that tl5 agents in fp doc land it more reliably than true tl5 docs that should have way more AR on it. Most often it just lands on first try even from the gimpest 150s but from time to time i see 4 counters in a row. The longer i try to understand how the hell does it work the less i know. There is no pattern.

At first i did think that with 1600 nr ill counter 2 out of 3 ubt attempts as i assume that an agent in fp doc will have around 800 points in nano skills so with 800 points in nr i should counter 50% of them. But from my notes i do counter only around 40-50% of those UBTs and it doesnt make any noticeable difference if it is an agent in doc or a true doc. It leads me to the conclusion that nanos with 100% nano ar check simply have 100% chance to land and there may be no attack check at all (because if it was agents would have lower stats on landing those nanos while they dont) but what happens is a defensive roll based on my nr. I havent tried nanos with higher / lower % ar tho.

[AGPEcko]

Oh, and if your seriously have NR twinked, and you think traders are landing drains all the time on you.... prolly selective memory

Clearly, it is you who have not played against a tl1/2/3 trader (what this thread is about). It's nice to defend your profession when you aren't affected by it as much. I too have rolled traders, as I've mentioned, I've got a 15, a 30, and had a 74 in the past. All of which we're ridiculously OP'ed (less so at 74). And while you can ho humm around the 15 seconds of pre-draining thats SUCH a pain in the arse, think of the 3 minutes of utter disability it has as an effect to its target. No nanos. No successful hits. The amount drained is simply not-balanced.

I wasnt clear enough, I went with the assumption that the trader didnt have OSBs. There are also OSB NR buffs, might try testing with those (or did you and you forgot to mention that?)

I've done more than my fair share of testing NR vs. trader drains. Particularly at tl1/2 where it most matters to me. Again, it doesn't work. Not even with NR buffs, your simply never on the verge of countering more than 1 drain in a row. Virtually no matter what. My 27 enf, with about 450 NR, has to-date, not countered more than 1 drain in a row, as said before. And doesn't even frequently counter roots. See below.

NR simply doesnt work in any pattern. Ive been keeping an eye on my counters to UBT on tl5 enforcer with around 1600 nr and so far it seems that tl5 agents in fp doc land it more reliably than true tl5 docs that should have way more AR on it. Most often it just lands on first try even from the gimpest 150s but from time to time i see 4 counters in a row. The longer i try to understand how the hell does it work the less i know. There is no pattern.

[bitnykk]

So here my purpose is to make a clear an numbered proposal to discuss on ; i'll try to have an average idea of average AR skill (+AAO) is reachable for NON-Traders, and make a correspondant lock on PVP target for each nanos.

The goal will be to balance the fight at low titles between traders and the rest. Note : this WON'T nerf the traders (nor agents fp) for twinking or arriving pre-drained with insane AR as they still can debuff PVM targets with no limit.

edit : i had a new idea to implement those caps in this post. numbers under are a rough proposal that might deserve tweaking.


Title (Level max) : AR_Skill (+AAO) => debuff limit in -AR_skill (-AAO)

Title 1 (14-) : 200 (+20) => less than -80 (-60) debuffing
Title 2 (49-) : 400 (+40) => less than -160 (-80) debuffing
Title 3 (99-) : 750 (+70) => less than -300 (-150) debuffing
Title 4 (149-) : 1250 (+150) => less than -500 (-250) debuffing
Title 5 (189-) : 1500 (+300) => all but Nanite Improved
Title 6/7 (220-) : 2000 (+500) => no limit on debuffing


Debuffs_Name : -AR_debuff (-AAO debuff)
Cumulated : -AR_debuff (-AAO debuff) => Proposed Lock

Divest Skills (Nanite Improved) : -325 (-150) / Plunder Skills (Nanite Improved) : -325 (-150)
Cumulated : -650 (-300) => TL6 & over

Divest Skills (Nanite Enhanced) : -250 (-150) / Plunder Skills (Nanite Enhanced) : -250 (-150)
Cumulated : -500 (-300) => TL5 & over

Plunder Skills (Advanced) : -211 (-106) / Divest Skills (Advanced) : -204 (-102)
Cumulated : -415 (-208) => TL4 & over

Plunder Skills (Major) : -198 (-99) / Divest Skills (Major) : -192 (-96)
Cumulated : -390 (-195) => TL4 & over

Plunder Skills : -187 (-94) / Divest Skills : -182 (-91)
Cumulated : -369 (-185) => TL4 & over

Plunder Skills (Lesser) : -178 (-89) / Divest Skills (Lesser) : -173 (-87)
Cumulated : -351 (-176) => TL4 & over

Plunder Skills (Average) : -167 (-84) / Divest Skills (Average) : -158 (-79)
Cumulated : -325 (-163) => TL4 & over

Plunder Skills (Minor) : -147 (-74) / Divest Skills (Minor) : -136 (-68)
Cumulated : -283 (-142) => TL3 & over

Plunder Skills (Weak) : -125 (-63) / Divest Skills (Weak) : -115 (-58)
Cumulated : -240 (-121) => TL3 & over

Ransack Skills (Advanced) : -105 (-53) / Deprive Skills (Advanced) : -95 (-48)
Cumulated : -200 (-101) => TL3 & over

Ransack Skills (Major) : -86 (-43) / Deprive Skills (Major) : -76 (-38)
Cumulated : -162 (-81) => TL3 & over

Ransack Skills : -69 (-35) / Deprive Skills : -60 (-30)
Cumulated : -129 (-65) => TL2 & over

Ransack Skills (Lesser) : -52 (-26) / Deprive Skills (Lesser) : -45 (-23)
Cumulated : -97 (-49) => TL2 & over

Ransack Skills (Average) : -39 (-20) / Deprive Skills (Average) : -33 (-17)
Cumulated : -72 (-37) => No restriction

Ransack Skills (Minor) : -26 (-13) / Deprive Skills (Minor) : -21 (-11)
Cumulated : -47 (-24) => No restriction

Ransack Skills (Weak) : -15 (-8) / Deprive Skills (Weak) : -9 (-5)
Cumulated : -24 (-13) => No restriction


numbers upper are a rough proposal that might deserve tweaking.

[Kuegen]

the problem with shotgun dmg is its crit reliant that is a problem with the weapon line maybe you should talk about changing oh their dmg is so you don;t have to drain up and put such a high QL weapon on...... sadly your a pvm trader most pvp trader don;t use shotguns.

Plenty of them use ithacas, crit+fling crit+AS works as a solid alpha, if your weapon isnt OE.

trader pvm dmg at TL2 is not that bad when you put the same effort other profession do into getting that dmg when I was leveling my trader I ODed my team and tanked Nasc hecks without issue, expensive gear or alot of twinking (110 imps and a 80ish typed Kyr shotgun)

ODing a team at nasc hecks is no valid support for your argument. having to spend 100m~ on my trader just so he can be ODed by a 20m setup MA or Agent (prolly less) if drains were even weaker....

without their OBs at TL2 trader are no threat to my MP so changing how they would work be more of a nerf then what I am proposing and you wouldn;t be losing your toolset you would still be able to drain.

thank you, you prove my point, OBs are the problem. Nerf isnt the answer, its a game mechanics issue, not a trader issue....

bitnykk your idea is good, if i understand correctly, the drains remain the same but are less effective (debuff wise) if you dont meet a specific TL? Way better than putting a hardcap level lock on it.


FYI i just dont pvp at towers, towers are messed up and have been for years. I pvp w/o OSBs, Duels and BS, all 3 have different styles, just because i dont do towers doesnt mean i havnt pvped

Oh also, if u resist one drain form the trader(early on), theyre dead really. Traders got no defense if the opponent isnt drained, and the amount of dmg

drains are removable with VS, so they wont last 3 minutes (unless your constantly getting attacked, surely u can find a place to run off too)

Traders are more powerful on paper than in the game

[odian102]

I have played a trader as my main since 2001.


If you want to stop low level traders from using high lvl drains.

Make Mochams self only or lvl locked....

If a trader had to drain up the ladder every time. Starting from what drains he could cast at that lvl, it would give other professions the opporunity to kill the trader before the high lvl drains could be cast.

Mochams gives the trader 140 more points at the beginning. So a low level trader can cast a huge drain right at the beginning, which destroys the target....


Real Suggestion would be:

Mochams can only be cast on lvl 100+ targets. Infuses on lvl 80 + targets.


Note: Taders can put on a 6 slot belt at lvl 1. Very easy at lvl 20 without much twinking. NCU is not a problem for Traders. So, they can hold high lvl buffs that other professions cant: Like Mochams and behe all at once....

[kabulla]

Plenty of them use ithacas, crit+fling crit+AS works as a solid alpha, if your weapon isnt OE.

haven't seen a TL2 twink use a ithaca in over 2 years because the weapon is far to crit reliant and inconsistant.

ODing a team at nasc hecks is no valid support for your argument. having to spend 100m~ on my trader just so he can be ODed by a 20m setup MA or Agent (prolly less) if drains were even weaker....

it is valid support to my arguement that trader dmg at TL2 in pvm is not as bad are you are trying to make it out to be. It is gonna completly depend on your weapon choice you can stay shotgun and still pump out great dmg without having a crit dependant setup by using a kyr shotgun or a shatter gun. Oh don;t use a MA as an example of creds spent they use fist so right there they save creds.

thank you, you prove my point, OBs are the problem. Nerf isnt the answer, its a game mechanics issue, not a trader issue....

I never said OBs were not a issue but, currently if you nerf nanoskill buffing OBs you hurt engi's and crat's far more then traders.

Oh also, if u resist one drain form the trader(early on), theyre dead really. Traders got no defense if the opponent isnt drained, and the amount of dmg

drains are removable with VS, so they wont last 3 minutes (unless your constantly getting attacked, surely u can find a place to run off too)

Traders are more powerful on paper than in the game

traders have just as many options for defensive tools outside of drains as everyone else at TL2

you won;t get the chance to use a VS unless the trader is dead or he is just using you as a drain pet cause if drains land so will roots

everyone is more powerful on paper then ingame thats the nature of twinking

[Darkirbiska1]

TL2 pvp is 100% trader, lvl30+pvp isnt only about traders and there is more possibilities.
If they nerf drains at low levels, they nerf all twinks and nothing will change, people dont start twinking adventurers, keepers, MAs. Trader will be best at tl2 even with drain nerf.
So it doesnt affect tl2 pvp, but it affects only pvp from lvl30+, NR setups works great in range 30+, again people made NR twinks against traders.

I dont get it, you want nerf drains at low levels(WHAT is LOW level?), and every pvper at low level who is smart has trader and who doesnt have trader then he made NR enf or agent. Everyone else who made doc, mp, engi for level10-30...you can be angry on yourself, you chose weak and wrong profession at LOW level PVP since 2004.

tl3+ is about something else, nanites are 100x bigger problem, because this is level where you spent more time and efforts with your twinks and it takes more time with leveling than level 30.
At low level you can roll trader and make him better(not real twink) in 2 days and it works.

Problem with tl3+ is 1.ncu and 2. really high drains, but this problem made Funcom with adding OP items.
Problem with tl2 is only ncu.

P.s. dont forget drain procs, they drain a lot too

[AGPEcko]

TL2 pvp is 100% trader, lvl30+pvp isnt only about traders and there is more possibilities.
If they nerf drains at low levels, they nerf all twinks and nothing will change, people dont start twinking adventurers, keepers, MAs. Trader will be best at tl2 even with drain nerf.
So it doesnt affect tl2 pvp, but it affects only pvp from lvl30+, NR setups works great in range 30+, again people made NR twinks against traders.

I dont get it, you want nerf drains at low levels(WHAT is LOW level?), and every pvper at low level who is smart has trader and who doesnt have trader then he made NR enf or agent. Everyone else who made doc, mp, engi for level10-30...you can be angry on yourself, you chose weak and wrong profession at LOW level PVP since 2004.

tl3+ is about something else, nanites are 100x bigger problem, because this is level where you spent more time and efforts with your twinks and it takes more time with leveling than level 30.
At low level you can roll trader and make him better(not real twink) in 2 days and it works.

Problem with tl3+ is 1.ncu and 2. really high drains, but this problem made Funcom with adding OP items.
Problem with tl2 is only ncu.

P.s. dont forget drain procs, they drain a lot too

Yeah, so your post pretty much sums it up. When was this thread about 'it being my fault'. Think about it, this thread is about discussion. And if your only arguement is 'if your not a trader, you die, and thus it's your fault', then clearly you see the problem here.
If not trader = you die. That is not BALANCE.

Since everyone can get OSB's, that cant be the reason (entirely). But trader's being able to 2-button-destruction is retarded.
Traders can get 6 slot belts on VERY early with exceptionally high QL NCU's. Why? Drains.
Traders can also debuff a target to 0% Effectiveness, in a matter of 6 seconds. (see, he pre-drained outside the tower field). Why? That's easy... drains.
I think a fix is due...

[Darkirbiska1]

You cant balance it when there is so many twinked traders yet.
Lock OBs? You think it helps others if they dont get Obs too?Maybe yes, but not at all.
Lock drain or ncu buffs? Read first sentence.
They are done, they are twinked and every side got many of them so with lock/nerf you dont balance it, you cant it is game mechanic, it is traders skill and possibilitie, they made profession which can make you weaker and itself stronger.
If you want balance, you must delete all twinked traders and lock OBs and drains.
I am afraid it is too late now.

[bitnykk]

the drains remain the same but are less effective (debuff wise) if you dont meet a specific TL? Way better than putting a hardcap level lock on it.

i don't know how exactly that should be implemented. could be cap on target level, title or cap on debuff effect depending on target AR, could even be a percentage debuff target side ...

doesn't matter since the final goal is to avoid getting so OE on weapon that you erase your toon to reroll trader
low title PVP need more diversity & balance. plz fix !

ps : i disagree on mocham lock, & the composites are already. enough like that : balance problem doesn't come from OSB but from laddering debuffs too high compared to what opponent skill can go.

[kabulla]

You cant balance it when there is so many twinked traders yet.
Lock OBs? You think it helps others if they dont get Obs too?Maybe yes, but not at all.
Lock drain or ncu buffs? Read first sentence.
They are done, they are twinked and every side got many of them so with lock/nerf you dont balance it, you cant it is game mechanic, it is traders skill and possibilitie, they made profession which can make you weaker and itself stronger.
If you want balance, you must delete all twinked traders and lock OBs and drains.
I am afraid it is too late now.

there is no reason to delete the exsisting trader if you lock/change the way drains work

locking OBs is not the solution it breaks more then it fixes.

[chiliedogson]

@ AGPecko,
I still have not seen you give one suggestion on how to fix this. All I see you doing is quoting people and saying "this is not balance" I hope they dont nerf traders. If they nerf traders other professions become way to OP'd Agents with 120+ psnipers that dont go oe @ tl2. Enfos with dual tiigs that wont go oe. I mean you seem like you are just suggesting nerfing traders so that your toons will be able to compete in pvp.(is it FC's fault you cant kill traders?) Sure being 50% oe does hurt your chances to kill a trader but they do you have to use all of there osbs to be able to use those drains and since I see you like making enfos you prolly use your ncu to use HP buffs. I bet this 27 enfo you have uses all his what 200ish ncu for +hp buffs why not throw on a +nr buff ? And I hope you dont go through my post history to try and contradict what I just said.

+I think the way they could fix this lil problem would be making NR1 perkable @ 15. I mean that is a ****ty suggestion but it is 1 more than you have added. And @ lvl 15 300 more NR would be a huge difference. Or make NR1 buff more than NR like instead of 300 make it 500 and add more to the other Notum Repolse perks acordingly.

[MassDebater]

if you cap drain to 3x target level at low levels you get:

15=45
21=63
30=90
49=147

etc. Now that seems quite good to me.

[chiliedogson]

x3 level is complete crap. A trader that is stripped can ladder drains to x3 there level. I think it is fine as is. I recomend not going to towers alone. Or bring a trader along with you. But NR unlocked @ 15 would be best route for FC considering all the other stuff going on. Nerfing drains can not be done for a few reasons. 1 of them being its not all about pvp. Believe it or not people do have traders used for pvm and doing this rediculous x3 level crap would make them even more crappy in pvm than they already are. Another suggestion could be instead of having it take -125 from apponet level lock those effects in pvp. tl up to -76, 86(or we the numbers are. And in tl2 up to -136,-140ish tl3 -205,-203 then tl4+ use nanites. But then again agp did start this thread because his 15,27 are being killed by traders so even though that is a decent idea it would not help him.

Ps.... Why a 27? dont you know that there are so many 30/31/33/35 twinks out there.

[bitnykk]

Nerfing drains can not be done (...) tl4+ use nanites (...) agp did start this thread

- read again what i'm proposing wich isn't a nerf (as PVM stays the same) but a balance
- tl3 can cast nanites (yes i mean it !)
- agp started but as you see some people agree low TL PVP need drain balance

[AGPEcko]

Yeah, I did start this thread about the drains. Excellent discovery. I made this thread to bring to light what's going on at tl1/2/3. By the looks of it, you have a low level trader, and your protecting it. And it appears that instead of proposing a decent fix your trying to hide behind the great wall of PvM. I mean, what have the nay-sayers had to suggest so far? Re-roll your character? Unlock NR to 15? Being able to, or having to perk NR is just a band-aid fix.
It's been suggested drains could be level locked, or adjusted target side. Which is a viable fix, traders still get the benefit, and in in PvP the target is still able to... function...

And yeah, it's true, I didn't have a fix to start with. It's just a discussion. That wasn't why I made the thread to begin with. And I've got to say, so far, the people of the community who are able to see what would work and what wouldn't, have spoken. There are some very good ideas in this thread.

I rolled an enfo because I was told nothing was plausible besides traders. And so far, I've done good as a non-trader in a trader-world. And I want to see more diversity, especially where it matters to me.

{edited by Anarrina: just because its in small type, doesn't mean I didn't see it}

[erozc]

- tl3 can cast nanites (yes i mean it !)

You mean TL2.