Low Level Trader(s) Drains

[bitnykk]

You and 2-3 other people claiming that drains are overpowered, with myself and 2-3 other people claiming that they are not, does not an agreement make.

Those of us who feel that drains are fine have given proposals for changes because we've seen FC's track record lately when it comes to pandering to the whiners. It's called damage control should the dummy sucking whiney brats get what they're stamping their feet and flailing their arms for.

lmao !

you see hacre, that's where you should stop bad faith sometimes, & stop pretending you're the gentle open-minded contradictor, because you've been slowing the discution by trying to convince us there was 0 problem of balance with trader drains since the beginning !

also there's more than 2-3 people ingame claiming low title PVP is obviously overhelmed with traders because of unlimited drain line - & i agree, also more than 2-3 wanting to protect their lubely OPed CL twink from any nerfbat.

turn things by calling others "whiners" is stupid when we got an open debate like this one, with people not wanting nerf BUT balance (ffs !), pease keep that kind of useless comment out. we're studying the possibilities to make the game better. keep that in mind & grow up.

[Hacre]

lmao !

you see hacre, that's where you should stop bad faith sometimes, & stop pretending you're the gentle open-minded contradictor, because you've been slowing the discution by trying to convince us there was 0 problem of balance with trader drains since the beginning !

There is 0 problem of balance where TRADERS are concerned.

I've said before and I'll say again, the issue is with other professions' toolsets not scaling from TL1 to TL7. Until Nanites, Traders were powerful twinks and we didn't have the forum full of whines. Until TL3, Traders with Nanites aren't actually that good a twink. They're only good for an hour at best, have serious nano issues even with PNH+IOR and have little NCU room for a nice collection of OBs. I assure you, a 40ish Trader running Nanites, doesn't have a JAME at 100%, (Burst skill too low even if AssRifle is fine) and I highly doubt they'll have RRFE, HnQ and GSF running as well as PNH+IOR. One of those will have to give, certainly no AR mastery or Riot Control. They need Mochams to function and a wrangle to get the initial drains laddered. As such, they're an impractical twink, more a proof of concept.

So, ignoring Nanites since in reality at the levels you're complaining about, they're a novelty, there's not a lot of difference throughout Trader history, save for some nice extras with LE by way of research. So the real issue is not Traders and "OMG NERF", the issue is with other profession toolsets not being up to scratch at those levels as much as Traders are. Pre LE, Traders quickly became a joke post TL5, the only real boosts they've had are around TL4 and upwards, with Nanites, the PvP drains and LE stuff. Plenty of other professions are strong at TL4 and upwards, or you'd still only see Traders being rolled at those levels.

History tells us that Traders still don't have the sort of power they did have once upon a time, before OE rules and in the days where crit wasn't halved in PvP and UVC was castable on others, Traders were god machines.

So, instead of demanding that Traders be nerfed into "meh"dom along with everyone else at lower TLs, where we're really not supposed to dwell anyway, ask that other professions become viable.

Because that will make the game more fun. Demanding nerfs to Traders will only serve to OP Enforcers and make lower TL wars even more boring.

[sultryvoltron]

To bring other professions up to par we're looking for a MASSIVE power shift downwards.

Advys, Crats, Docs, Engis, Fixers, Keepers, MPs, Shades and Soldiers need HUGE increases in their lower level toolsets to even be close to the level of Traders and Enfs. MAs/Agents fall somewhere in the middle.

Considering that balance will be achieved in the end, it is FAR easier to knock down Trader drains (because honestly, a TL2 using TL4-5 nanos is retarded) and Enf HP/weapons.

[Saetos]

It is the best solution to balance out low levels.

It isn't at all. This could nerf Traders to a more "solid" state in PVP but it would also, quite literally, kill the PVM Trader at low levels. If any semblance of locks would be given to these buffs then I would demand immediately that our other nanos - especially our Health and Nano drains - be adjusted accordingly to cast faster and with less cost, so that we can be servicable to a team as well as ourselves.

The original skill lock which AO was based around is shot to hell because skill levels have escalated to godlike proportions. A level lock is needed to control the level of power available at low levels.

Look, I will support the locking of nanites to 75, 100, or 150. I may even support a (lenient) lock of Plunders and Divests. But I'm not about to start suggesting that FunCom sledgehammer my drains and my comrades' drains with level locks if they're going to affect them all the way down to Deprive Skills (Weak). The team viability of the Trader in its current incarnation is in dire question, as all of our nanos are 9-year-old relics; we still have team AC drain-buffs, for Christ's sake, and people have been pumping themselves with ACs upon ACs since Alien Invasion to the point where we have now at least 3 nanolines that no Trader ever uses. Outfits are spiffy, Umbrals are nice and so are Hagglers, but without servicable laddering drains to make sure those Hagglers are effective enough, we're wasting time becoming a poor-man's Adventurer, which is not a road I'm ever willing to take.

If you think locking drains will hurt PvM abilities at lower levels, then fight for better weapon choices and team nanos, but dont use that as an excuse to hang on to a PvP situation that has been hoplessly unbalanced for years.

Contrary to your opinion, I do care plenty about changing the PVP situation especially at low levels. I have a level 49 PVP-built Martial Artist with Menkyo - believe you me, I've been on the receiving end of more than enough drains from JAME traders and the like. But I'm not going to use that experience as a crutch to butcher the profession I rolled first, and loved the most, to attempt a band-aid fix of what's rapidly becoming a crumbling tower of a mechanic in PVP, and ironically a part of the game I love the most, that being lowbie PVP. I would indeed love to be able to roll level 36 Doctors and NanoTechs, but at the same time I want to keep the 1v1-strength and the crippling abilities of a profession that I rolled because of those nanos.

As long as I'm a Trader Professional, no Deprive or Ransack nano will be level locked. If that makes you unhappy, my sincerest apologies, but it's a point of view that I'm not moving from.

[Saetos]

Advys, Crats, Docs, Engis, Fixers, Keepers, MPs, Shades and Soldiers need HUGE increases in their lower level toolsets to even be close to the level of Traders and Enfs. MAs/Agents fall somewhere in the middle.

Considering that balance will be achieved in the end, it is FAR easier to knock down Trader drains (because honestly, a TL2 using TL4-5 nanos is retarded) and Enf HP/weapons.

Those "TL4-5" nanos have been used by TL2 traders since the beginning of the game. FunCom was well aware that our drain nanos would give us nanoskills, and balanced the nanos accordingly. The problem with everything, though, is that almost no nano from any profession has been updated since Shadowlands - and we're 7 years past that point. PVP mechanics have changed drastically, whereby level 49s are able to punch the lights out of level 20s. People have found new ways to build their character to behemoth heights.

The biggest problem we're facing with the lower-powered class, i.e. Adventurers and Bureaucrats and Engineers, is that all their "awesome" toys are 1) level-locked 2) appear late in their career. Here's what I want to know - if morphing is so important to advies, why are they not given their cat, wolf, and leet morphs at level 10, with effectiveness depending on their level? Why does literally no class have innate profession abilities that can be used to give their profession a unique flavor when it comes to PVP combat? Why should *everything* depend on what kind of nano you can cast, what kind of weapon you can swing, how many stats you can stuff on your character before you pass out?

That, mis amigos, is the problem with the game. All of your awesome abilities come from your nanoprograms, or your perks - which level <50 people have in sedated, weak varieties. No innate abilities. No breed differentials - oh sure, Opifex gets 9 more agility than Solitus does! But who cares? So if anything happens to your profession, 9 times out of 10 it's going to come to an adjustment to your nanos, which will completely screw your character over.

[bitnykk]

There is 0 problem of balance where TRADERS are concerned.

lmao (2) ! of course. so please explain us :
- how TL2 trader draining 200 skill and 100 AAO is totally balanced when it's more most have ?
- how 42 trader casting nanites (or highest RK pre-LE !) in his range is totally balanced ?
- why like 75+% of the lowbie twinks are traders, & like 33+% until mid TL4 ?
- why the 1st barely twinked low TL trader can make any opponent 50% OE or worse in 7 sec ?

please also convince me :
- the issue wasn't pre-LE (& nanites) & even not stronger since its release,
- almost all low TL profs are limited BUT traders, wich should stay the same @ rebalance,
- abusing the word "nerf" everytime isn't stupid when people ask for "balance",
- calling any contradictor "whiner" is making the one saying it right, magic fingersnap,
- using NR enforcer argument all the time to justify traders shall stay the same isn't failed.


or if you sincerely want to see the game improved why not :
1/ ask for real balance in trader draining capabilities for every title ?
2/ also bring a Notum Repulsor adjustment during rebalance like some of us try ?
3/ equally preach for enforcer balance in tl2/3 (e.g. LE AAO/Rage procs or nanos) ?
4/ endly struggle for other profession bump at low levels along with that ?

for now i only see you slowing 1/ ... so the all balance process !
while any adjustement made in other order will end with unfair PVP balance like we got now. i mean if all professions got a bump, so long this bump is ruined by OPed drains that will be useless. also if we obtain NR adjustment first, TL3 agents & enfo will shout on nerfbat too ; + all title enfos might use the same biaised argument back ("we wanna stay on same power because of trader drains"). those all doesn't make valid arguments not to balance traders 1st !
that childish situationnal stuck must stop ...

as a supposely intelligent (& mature ?) debater, i think you know it perfectly, hacre, & i hope (but start to doubt !) you're able to stop bad faith (or so called "damage control" stuff) & admit we're asking (at least i do ! believe me or not) for a fair & needed fix wich doesn't nerf traders in PVM/Twink & endly make low title PVP balance possible (ffs (2) !).


anyway i'm sincerely glad that we got an objective & open-minded trader professional bringing 100% valid argument around & respecting debaters (even contradictors) & some logic.

lower-powered class (...) "awesome" toys (...) appear late in their career

that's a real issue on wich FC showed will to partly solve by distributing the perk level locks "better" (TM). i don't know how low they wanted to include that feature of rebalance but that's correct we might have to feedback them strongly on that, as for OPed stuff like enfo procs (i meant OPed after drain balancing ofc ...).

all of our nanos are 9-year-old relics (...) to the point where we have now at least 3 nanolines that no Trader ever uses

having played trader quite much, that pretty true : out of some rare PVM issues, charms are useless as you cannot move/fight during it. AC leech is of use on HL only (badass/NR ones), team AC is useless (highest is 1K AC ...) except if FC would at least consent to add a little special blocker in it for PVP (just suggesting).
the same applies (little out the subject but ...) on MA/Sold overall & Engi low AC buffs, or fixer item summon (out of sweb/ga) : that makes several useless nanolines needing fix.

[Notcrattey]

Advys, Crats, Engis, Keepers, Shades and Soldiers need HUGE increases in their lower level toolsets to even be close to the level of

fixd

[Genie]

It isn't at all. This could nerf Traders to a more "solid" state in PVP but it would also, quite literally, kill the PVM Trader at low levels.

It is the simplest solution and the simplest solution is the best solution. If this will "kill" the PvM trader at low levels, then ask for PvM toys as compensation. I see no reason why traders shouldn't get that.

And there is no reason to assume that level locks will be set low. In an ideal world, I would say that a decently equipped trader should be able to cast the highest divest/plunder available within his level, selfed without predrain. That is his reward for the twinking effort. Others will need to lader to be able to use it. Like some already mentioned your debuff ability should be close to equal to that of an mp of the same level.

While in this ideal world, I would also like to see all nano lines across all professions reworked to take into account the skills atainable today, so that we wouldnt have the problem of level 75's using top nanos across the line. Nano lines, like roots, snares, calms, nukes, drains, heals, etc, etc, should all scale all the way to the very top of todays skill levels.

However this is not likely to happen. Therefore Im afraid we need these "band aid" fixes.

As long as I'm a Trader Professional, no Deprive or Ransack nano will be level locked. If that makes you unhappy, my sincerest apologies, but it's a point of view that I'm not moving from.

No apologies need. Professional or not, its not up to you anyway. And its rather logic than feelings when it comes to this subject. Your statement should be "if this sounds illogical" not "if that makes you unhappy"

[sultryvoltron]

Those "TL4-5" nanos have been used by TL2 traders since the beginning of the game. FunCom was well aware that our drain nanos would give us nanoskills, and balanced the nanos accordingly. The problem with everything, though, is that almost no nano from any profession has been updated since Shadowlands - and we're 7 years past that point. PVP mechanics have changed drastically, whereby level 49s are able to punch the lights out of level 20s. People have found new ways to build their character to behemoth heights.

The biggest problem we're facing with the lower-powered class, i.e. Adventurers and Bureaucrats and Engineers, is that all their "awesome" toys are 1) level-locked 2) appear late in their career. Here's what I want to know - if morphing is so important to advies, why are they not given their cat, wolf, and leet morphs at level 10, with effectiveness depending on their level? Why does literally no class have innate profession abilities that can be used to give their profession a unique flavor when it comes to PVP combat? Why should *everything* depend on what kind of nano you can cast, what kind of weapon you can swing, how many stats you can stuff on your character before you pass out?

That, mis amigos, is the problem with the game. All of your awesome abilities come from your nanoprograms, or your perks - which level <50 people have in sedated, weak varieties. No innate abilities. No breed differentials - oh sure, Opifex gets 9 more agility than Solitus does! But who cares? So if anything happens to your profession, 9 times out of 10 it's going to come to an adjustment to your nanos, which will completely screw your character over.

You're absolutely right. If we look at the other side of the coin, it could reasonably be argued that professions like Advys, Crats, Engis, and even Agents Mimic tools, are reasonably spread out through their leveling career. Accepting that, then it becomes clear that it is Traders and Enfs who receive too many of their primary profession tools far too early.

Not saying this is right or wrong, but the pendulum swings both ways, and in this case the pendulum swings extremely far in the direction of Traders and Enfs. What you suggest, while viable, requires a massive rework of the AO PvP system. I'm all for that. FC, it seems, is not.

fixd

Where's my TL2 MPs root/snare removal and pet steal back nanos?

Where's my non-GA fixer's evades? Hell, even where's my GA fixer's evades when that Enf is pounding away with capped regulars and my GA's 50% or less OE from the Trader? (I don't have a fixer, but these are the general complaints from people I know.)

Where's my docs useful DoTs and high HP? Oh, I have to use a 2hb weapon to kill people, and just hope I don't get alpha killed by someone who has kizzers and a few specials?

[bitnykk]

a decently equipped trader should be able to cast the highest divest/plunder available within his level, selfed without predrain. That is his reward for the twinking effort.

to me such a trader should be able to send what he can reach in requirement, mocham/wrangle included.
just that should be castable on any mob, but not on other players if we really wanna see balanced PVP happen @ low titles.
that's not the only issue but the main to deal with imo.

[Saetos]

No apologies need. Professional or not, its not up to you anyway. And its rather logic than feelings when it comes to this subject. Your statement should be "if this sounds illogical" not "if that makes you unhappy"

The final result isn't up to me, that's true. They will however (hopefully) send any planned fixes our way first before diving into them, and that's where Nano and I come in.

You're absolutely right. If we look at the other side of the coin, it could reasonably be argued that professions like Advys, Crats, Engis, and even Agents Mimic tools, are reasonably spread out through their leveling career. Accepting that, then it becomes clear that it is Traders and Enfs who receive too many of their primary profession tools far too early.

Saying it like that, that is a pretty interesting point. However, you have to realize that an unbuffed Trader is not at the same caliber as an unbuffed Adventurer or whatnot, especially pre-TL4. We are built to be subpar performers in PVP without our drains running, and it takes us to drain you to become a powerful PVP opponent via those drains. With them we're able to cast better heals, better roots, and whatnot to stop you more easily than if we were shooting our Vektor ND Shotguns hoping you might die from the loltastic regulars

That brings me into another point: as Traders, we are indeed a pretty unique profession. Our entire toolset is based around modifying (for better or worse) your own toolset, so you will expect our mechanics to be different from other classes.

About Enforcers: the fact that they do have their main abilities early on is a good thing and something that should have been encouraged for all professions, instead of putting thresholds and roadblocks to things like Adventurer morphs (sorta), Adventurer weapon buffs, Doctor SL heals, NanoTechnician SL/AI nukes and DOTs. What you're seeing is the result of the mechanic being given to us, as Traders, along with Enforcers and the like - and not to what has become the low-performing classes.

I'll give you another example: Shades. Every Spirit in the game is level locked, a ton of their nanos are level locked (though to be fair, they have a very hard time casting their nanos at the lock levels without outside help). This impedes their progress a ton, as they're wearing what amounts to QL60 implants - sometimes worse in some slots - at level 49, which results in an inferior amount of HitPoints, offensive power and defensive power in relativity to their Trader, Soldier, and Enforcer brethren. Don't get me wrong, I do think Enforcers REALLY need a second look-over, as their PVP prowess, even at TL7, revolves around equipping an extremely powerful weapon or a powerful weapon combo to do damage, instead of using their high HP and good defenses to shrug off hits as they should.

Where's my TL2 MPs root/snare removal and pet steal back nanos?

Where's my non-GA fixer's evades? Hell, even where's my GA fixer's evades when that Enf is pounding away with capped regulars and my GA's 50% or less OE from the Trader? (I don't have a fixer, but these are the general complaints from people I know.)

Where's my docs useful DoTs and high HP? Oh, I have to use a 2hb weapon to kill people, and just hope I don't get alpha killed by someone who has kizzers and a few specials?

Agreed on all three points.

[Notadoc]

I agree with the point that it isnt that traders toolset is particularly OP in the lower TL ranges but rather that other prof's toolset's don't become useful until later TL's.

In my humble opinion the drain itself isn't the problem i believe the so called noobstick is what has created such a large power gap (particularly in TL 1.) When the trader is able to not only reduce your skills to that degree (which is a valid part of their toolset) but also drain their opponents nano points while replenishing their own and causing effective amounts of damage i fail to see where there are holes in their offense\defense.

Even if every other profession had updated toolsets for TL1\2 a few hits from that weapon and they have no nanopoints to make use of them anyway, while the trader can continue to cast their roots\drains.

Don't get me wrong i believe wholeheartedly that traders should be feared in PvP, particularly at the lower TL ranges, but not to the point that every other profession (or even weapon choice) is cast aside by the majority of players in favour of a cookie cutter option. A good example of this is when 2 traders are battling. One has a Pump shottie, the other a noobstick a few hits from the noobstick and the trader with the shottie cannot use their toolset. Does this seem fair? Why should every trader use the noobstick to be truly competitive?

edit - just to clarify, the point im trying to make is that i dont think the drains themselves are the problem. Its the combination of those with a weapon option that not only deals good damage but drains an opponents nanopool.

[Darkirbiska1]

A good example of this is when 2 traders are battling. One has a Pump shottie, the other a noobstick a few hits from the noobstick and the trader with the shottie cannot use their toolset. Does this seem fair? Why should every trader use the noobstick to be truly competitive?

Traders can use every weapon, but only a few of them are good. Pumps are outdated so why do you think traders must stick with shotguns when they can use new weapons with more power?
You example is wrong and you wrote battle: outdated trader vs new trader.
It is like: full set tier3 trader vs full set AI armor trader....

[Notadoc]

Traders can use every weapon, but only a few of them are good. Pumps are outdated so why do you think traders must stick with shotguns when they can use new weapons with more power?
You example is wrong and you wrote battle: outdated trader vs new trader.
It is like: full set tier3 trader vs full set AI armor trader....

You misunderstand my point. I am by no means saying traders should only use shotguns. (In fact im trying to support the exact opposite the Pump shotgun was used an an example.) The point im trying to make is that it shouldn't be one weapon choice or gimp...

So what are these other options that are truly competitive? The only options ive seen used (to reasonable effect) at TL1 other than the noobstick is fear-forged blades and that is by no means common (and the point about nanopool drains from the noobstick still stands, a few hits from the noobstick and what chance does the trader with no nanopool have whatever weapon they choose?) TL2 you have the arbalest as a decent option. TL 3 theres JAME blasters. Do you see where this is going? Limited options for effective weapons promote cookie cutter setups. Isn't variety a good thing? (i know its what keeps bringing me back to AO) or do you like a battle that consist of who lands the first root or drain because the majority of players are using the same option.

How can i make it any clearer? I dont think the drains themselves are the problem but the limited effective weapon choices and the OP'edness of particular choices.

[bitnykk]

it isnt that traders toolset is particularly OP in the lower TL ranges (...) Even if every other profession had updated toolsets for TL1\2 a few hits from that weapon and they have no nanopoints to make use of them anyway, while the trader can continue to cast their roots\drains.

i partly agree on that : no need to udpate/open other profession toolset at lower title if the trader drains make it useless in no time anyway. but i strongly disagree when you say the trader drains ain't particularly OP : that's the drain unlimitation in PVP that DO makes diversity killed, leaving no other valid option (out of NR enforcer).

imagine a level 15 well twinked toon with 250ish AR, wich is pretty much to reach for non-traders (or agents). any correct trader will come and get it 25% OE or worse in less than 10 sec. how is that balanced ? same example with a 45ish twinked toon reaching, by example, 500 AR. how on earth shall we allow a trader to drain its skills entirely + AAO over that ? again, what balance is possible until such unlimitation remains ?

the only valid profession FC gave us TL1/2 against that is, as said, NR enforcer with rage/challenge procs/nanos that will make it EVENTUALLY capable of hitting the trader with highest drains throwed. we need to reach TL3 to see valid NR agent (totally OBSed ofc), and may be later (low TL4) defensive MPs. only in TL5 we start to see real diversity in PVP (doc, sold, fix, etc ...) !

in the end there's no fix of low title PVP without balancing the trader drain line first, then eventually get enforcers to a normal state not especially designed to counter them. add to this a notum repulsor adjustement, and you can come up with giving professions a bump in low title. before that, useless talking of any balancing.

[Genie]

We are built to be subpar performers in PVP without our drains running, and it takes us to drain you to become a powerful PVP opponent via those drains. With them we're able to cast better heals, better roots, and whatnot to stop you more easily than if we were shooting our Vektor ND Shotguns hoping you might die from the loltastic regulars

This is the core of the problem I think. You were built to be subpar performers in PvP. But today trader defense ratings are so high that they are on the level with the offense of every other profession out there, except maybe the enforcer. Your drains should bring the offensive power of your opponent down to the level of your defense, so that it will be an even fight.

This is not the case any longer. Drains are now giving an ensured win to the trader, because his defenses are so high that when the opponent is drained he will have no chance to ever hit you, and to add insult to injury, you also take away his casting abilities so that he cannot heal or escape. It creates unescapeable no win situations, and it simply dont get any more unbalanced than this.

Problem is you seem to compare your PvP situations against your strongest opponent, the enf, when you should be comparing yourself against the median of all professions.

[Notadoc]

... how on earth shall we allow a trader to drain its skills entirely + AAO over that ? again, what balance is possible until such unlimitation remains ?...

only in TL5 we start to see real diversity in PVP (doc, sold, fix, etc ...) !

in the end there's no fix of low title PVP without balancing the trader drain line first, then eventually get enforcers to a normal state not especially designed to counter them. add to this a notum repulsor adjustement, and you can come up with giving professions a bump in low title. before that, useless talking of any balancing.

Very valid points. From what i understand the point your making is that the trader shouldn't be able to completely cripple (note i said completely) cripple the offense of other professions. This makes a lot of sense why roll another profession if within 10 seconds of opening combat you have wasted the time it took to make that twink.

Looking back over some of the posts i can see some very constructive options to make it more viable. Capping the effect of the drain to a certain percentage (in PvP) in particular makes a lot of sense to me it reduces the offense of your opponent without completely crippling them (Mind you i have no idea what numbers would be good but the idea seems solid to me.) Locking some drains to higher levels is another option, tho i fear the effect this would have on traders in PvM.

Having said that though it seems a difficult thing to balance without destroying what makes trader the profession they are. Will NR enf become completely unstoppable? That can't be a good thing (the result would be people only rolling enf.) Why bother rolling a GA fixer (or any other prof for that matter) if drains reduce the effectiveness of your defense to 0 (Just an example people should be able to roll whichever profession they want and at least have a chance if they are setup right and played well.)

Personally this is exactly what i would like to see, a variety of professions being used in lower TL battles not just traders. Ofc trader should be feared the nature of their toolset is that they reduce your effectiveness in combat but it shouldn't be to a point where only one other profession becomes viable and only then with a specific setup.

On a different note i sincerely hope that the trader professionals are consulted if any of these ideas are implemented who better to help balance it whilst maintaining what makes the profession what it is.

[bitnykk]

Locking some drains to higher levels is another option, tho i fear the effect this would have on traders in PvM.

imo it's possible to make a different effect fordbidding to cast on a player (PVP target) if level < X (need to be well adjust), but allowing to cast it on any mob/boss/PVM target ?

Requirements
User Psychological modifications >= XXX and
User Time and space >= XXX and
Target Level >= Y
if NPC type == 0

that way you control max PVP target level for each drain but don't change PVM nor Twink. simpler than % debuff isn't it ?

[lusthorne]

This is the core of the problem I think. You were built to be subpar performers in PvP. But today trader defense ratings are so high that they are on the level with the offense of every other profession out there, except maybe the enforcer. Your drains should bring the offensive power of your opponent down to the level of your defense, so that it will be an even fight.

This is not the case any longer. Drains are now giving an ensured win to the trader, because his defenses are so high that when the opponent is drained he will have no chance to ever hit you, and to add insult to injury, you also take away his casting abilities so that he cannot heal or escape. It creates unescapeable no win situations, and it simply dont get any more unbalanced than this.

Problem is you seem to compare your PvP situations against your strongest opponent, the enf, when you should be comparing yourself against the median of all professions.

So who is your magical "median" profession eh?

Drains do not guarantee a win for the trader. They are useful vs one target at a time, and not all targets are affected equally in terms of affected performance. Further, landing divest/plunder on a target enhances your defense against that specific target and no one else.

The problem at lower levels is not *that* powerful drains are accessible via twinking+ob's+laddering, it's that the debuff portion of the drains don't have any built in scaling limits to govern how far a player character can be debuffed by drains in pvp proportionate to their level.

You don't fix a pvp oversight by crippling tools that are needed to be effective elsewhere, you fix it by doing the *smart* thing, not the seemingly *easiest* thing. Sure, level locking drains *could* address lower TL issues. The problem with that approach is that it creates more problems to be dealt with as there will be a ton of other things that will have to be addressed as a result of taking this approach which in the long run makes it in reality a more difficult approach.

The smarter thing to do is to implement debuff caps scaling by level. This retains the pvm uses for drains while simultaneously solving the issues in pvp where the full power of a drain would be incredibly overpowered. This approach is arguably simpler overall as it only requires modifying the drain debuff in pvp, vs having to create more solutions for the problems caused by taking the level lock approach.

Plus, we already know that the capabilities for doing such checks exist based on information we know about existing and forthcoming tools (such as the existence of nanos that already work on percentages rather than hard numbers).

Drains are hardly the only nano that could benefit from using % based rules as well. Also applicable are things like hots, which everyone can admit have a significant effect on low level pvp.

[Notcrattey]

Where's my TL2 MPs root/snare removal and pet steal back nanos?

You said major changes, not one nano. (because Tl2 MPS do VERY well at TL2)
and who the hell steals pets at TL2?

when that Enf is pounding away

Use your toolset maybe? Roots and snares work at lower levels you know. Maybe even try kiting, range ftw?

and my GA's 50% or less OE from the Trader? (I don't have a fixer, but these are the general complaints from people I know.)

Assuming mass pvp, there are no rules against bringing friends, can't expect to do amazing against everyone.

Where's my docs useful DoTs and high HP? Oh, I have to use a 2hb weapon to kill people, and just hope I don't get alpha killed by someone who has kizzers and a few specials?

Have you ever played tl2? Or even observe a good TL2 doc?