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Thread: Low Level Trader(s) Drains

  1. #1

    Low Level Trader(s) Drains

    Lowbie PvP is flooded with traders and traders only. (almost).
    The amount they're able to drain is incredible.
    With mochams, and pre-draining mobs, a 15 trader or less (whatever) can debuff someone for numbers like -125 and -136. That's -266 right there. That's more than some/most appropriately ql'ed weapon requirements for similarly leveled professions.

    So within say 1s (cast time on the first drain) it's impossible to kill someone if they have a heal over time. After another 6s (7s later) you can completely remove someones ability to do damage. Their weapon is now 0% effective.

    This should have been addressed YEARS ago. This is a balance discussion. How did it even slip by after the first few months (or years) that lowbie PvP was completely and utterly dominated by a single profession.

    If this is balance. You are provably wrong.
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  2. #2
    butbutbutbut roll an nr+ enf, the greedy low lvl traders cry!



    cap drain amount to 3x your level
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  3. #3
    NR1 is locked to level 30, and the amount a trader can predrain still doesn't mean you're likely to resist the divest (possibly the plunder line).
    Deadfroobs - 18 agent- Work in progress
    Reidsangry - 30 enf - Work in progress
    Reidsmp - 76 mp
    Reidsagent - 95 agent/enf
    Reidsdrainz - 114 agent
    Reidscrat - 161 crat
    Reids - 218 crat
    Reidventurer - 220 advy
    Reidsma - 220 MA

  4. #4
    So with things so obvious, how come there's not even a mention of it in the phase 1 of balancing?
    Like I said in the OP, these should have been regulated somehow so long ago.

    And I'm loving the 3x your level suggestion.
    Fastest Contact: Northadvncd "Agptaxi" Bankterminal
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  5. #5
    i agree that's a little stupid how tl1/2 (and even 3 somehow) traders dominate everything. first to drain is winner ! yay ! all other professions can stay offline ...

    so i see 2 solutions :

    - level/title lock on the drains CASTER side : but that could nerf the PVM traders, and the benefit traders/agent got on twinking (ncu 1st !). and that's meaning pre-change twinked would have a serious advantage on post-change nerfed. WRONG solution.

    - level/title lock on the drains PVP-TARGET side : that leaves PVM totally unchanged, twink options same that pre-change but PVP becomes more balanced ; trader still can predrain on mobs to get AR (for both neleb/pump & drain) but the target won't go 25/0% in the next 6 seconds. i think that's the RIGHT solution.


    add to this that debuff duration (3 min) should be cut by 2 PVP-TARGET side and i think we're fine.
    Bitnykk/Bittorrent - young RL of AP & old emissary of CODE

  6. #6
    BUMP SO HARD FOR THIS!

    I personally have a couple enfo twinks down at lower levels (15, 24, 49-WIP) and even with rage and nr set up, I can almost never counter drains of a twink that has mochies and has predrained. It's just unfair, I mean, I'm not the best twink ever but I would at least say I'm decent, and I can't say how frustrating it is that a level 15 trader can destroy my level 15 enfo with over 2k hp self in a single alpha just because he's drained me. (perks+kizzermoles+normal attacks)
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  7. #7
    Guys.. It has been like this for 9 years. do you really think they are going to go back and change it now? I mean sure tl1/2 is dominated by traders but what about all the other flaws. If i could say one thing though i would say increase the effectivness of NR or increase the NR check on the Deprive/ransack line giving NR 1 toons an actual chance against traders. But on a serious not if a trader kills you at tl1/2 you can either go cry and make a thread about it or make your own trader.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Bighealz View Post
    Guys.. It has been like this for 9 years. do you really think they are going to go back and change it now?
    When Means took over the GD chair, this stopped being a problem. Nothing is safe anymore, and thank god for that. My guess is they're going to look at the higher TLs first, and proceed to the lower ones if it makes any sense. Remember that the most useful you get from a low level base is an extra grid point exit and no tower flags if it's the only one you got.
    Avari 220/30/80 - Araghos 220/30/80 - Shishido 220/30/7x - Araninn 220/30/80

    Quote Originally Posted by Tergx
    If one of the few traders are PvPing around you and land GTH on you, take a trip to decon and it will be gone. What's the big deal hehe.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Avari View Post
    When Means took over the GD chair, this stopped being a problem. Nothing is safe anymore, and thank god for that. My guess is they're going to look at the higher TLs first, and proceed to the lower ones if it makes any sense. Remember that the most useful you get from a low level base is an extra grid point exit and no tower flags if it's the only one you got.
    No, the most useful stuff you get is fun

    Unless ofcourse you have negative skills.

  10. #10
    read my post a little upper, there u got my proposal that i estimate fair, balanced and not nerfing anyone.
    Bitnykk/Bittorrent - young RL of AP & old emissary of CODE

  11. #11
    Honestly I think the best option for changing drains would be to have percentage-based debuffs instead of static-amount debuffs (say, -20% base for Divest/-25% base for Plunder/-150 AR for both each instead of -325 skills/-150 AAO each for Nanite Improveds) and scaling down from there, but there's plenty of room for discontent from Traders since we rely on these so much to bring the fight to a decent level; at high levels not much will change (base skill of around 1200, 20% of that is 200, 25% is 300) but at low levels, you could really only scale down the -AR portion, as even -45% of base value of players' weapon and nanoskills is not a very high value.

    If you caster-level-lock drains you castrate PVM Traders. If you target-level-lock drains you run the risk of having a weapon you twinked on forced OE because you can't ladder as high as you used to. There is something fishy going on with lowbie Traders but to be quite honest, it's not the cut-and-dry "let's lock drains klolz" people think it is.
    Last edited by Saetos; Mar 3rd, 2010 at 07:50:58.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raggy View Post
    There is literally nothing wrong with {Shutdown Skills} in it's current incarnation. What should be being looked at is the reason why it's needed so much. E.g, the incredible amount of Alpha being thrown around and the fickleness of Evade profs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cratertina View Post
    I walk in to BS... could not perk people... with 3704 AR and 300 AAD drain... NT facerolled me, shade instagibbed me, after a few minutes I just decided not gonna bother.

  12. #12
    having played on traders, i think you percentage idea isn't bad at first sight.

    but do we consider it both side : the trader got a percent of the skill in positive his side NCU ?
    if yes, the problem then is : will it be also in PVM ?

    then i see 2 problems :
    - hard to plan a twink on percent without knowing the target skill exactly ...
    - wouldn't it be the opening to some abuse (higher level twinks flagged let the trader drain em)

    depending on percent, that's wether nerf wether bump wich none of both traders need.

    that's why i think at least PVM should stay fixed value debuff.
    and for PVP i think trader side should stay fixed value also to avoid sploits.

    finally i only agree for PVP target side debuff in percentage. but that's a little complicated, i'd rather stay on level lock for PVP target (based on what's reachable in AR), and PVM unchanged, as i suggested.
    Last edited by bitnykk; Mar 3rd, 2010 at 11:52:34.
    Bitnykk/Bittorrent - young RL of AP & old emissary of CODE

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by bitnykk View Post
    having played on traders, i think you percentage idea isn't bad at first sight.

    but do we consider it both side : the trader got a percent of the skill in positive his side NCU ?
    if yes, the problem then is : will it be also in PVM ?
    Nah. I'd have Trader keep the static-value buffs.
    [[ RYUAHN | 220/21 Opifex Trader
    == Proud Member of Core ==
    [[ ALASTROPHE | 220/15 Solitus Martial-Artist

    Quote Originally Posted by Raggy View Post
    There is literally nothing wrong with {Shutdown Skills} in it's current incarnation. What should be being looked at is the reason why it's needed so much. E.g, the incredible amount of Alpha being thrown around and the fickleness of Evade profs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cratertina View Post
    I walk in to BS... could not perk people... with 3704 AR and 300 AAD drain... NT facerolled me, shade instagibbed me, after a few minutes I just decided not gonna bother.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by AGPEcko View Post
    Since this is a balance related forum, I think having to chose between dying, or re-rolling as the only successful profession. Isn't balance at all.
    I agree. Although some people might argue that whoever hits the "I win" button first is as balanced as it gets, it takes the excitement out of pvp and removes the option for variation. As for how to deal with it, it's possible they could do a similar thing with drains as they do with damage in pvp, making the drains take less in pvp than they do in pvm. this way pvm can stay the same and pvp isn't as one-sided.
    An increase in the NR check could be nice as an NR setup would have a chance against traders then, but you'd have to be careful with the numbers to prevent it being nerfed in pvm. After all, I doubt that most people lvling a trader would take the time to get a moch and predrain every time they go to kill mobs just so they can land their drains.
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  15. #15
    maybe it would be possible to combine both drain lines into a single nano, but drain on target would remain the same as if only one drain had been cast, while giving trader benefit of two drains. its a fair trade imo, as getting double drained is horrible on the receiving end, and not landing a drain would be double bad for trader; whilst the payoff to the trader would be less time wasted draining, more time utilizing rest of toolset.

    as for pvm, can't honestly say having mob running with both drains has made life or death over just one drain. and in team, its stuff like doc's ubt and tank's ability to hold aggro that saves the day, not drains.
    Last edited by Soultrader; Mar 4th, 2010 at 20:22:41.
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  16. #16
    Double cast time & recharge time then. And some higher than 100% NR check too please
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Leamartini View Post
    Double cast time & recharge time then. And some higher than 100% NR check too please
    honestly i'm not for changing cast/recharge, that would be a trader nerfing and wouldnt change the unbalanced OE of target.
    idk about NR change.

    i'm all to keep it like now in PVM and trader side NCU, but change PVP target NCU side (level lock or percentage applied).
    Bitnykk/Bittorrent - young RL of AP & old emissary of CODE

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Leamartini View Post
    Double cast time & recharge time then. And some higher than 100% NR check too please
    Plunder already is higher than 100%, considerably higher.

    Just level lock Nanites to 75 or 76+ to keep them out of that level range BS and lower, job done. High TL3 and onwards is where other professions catch up to Trader effectiveness in PvP, excluding NR setup Enforcers at the lower TLs.

    People forget that TL1/2 Traders don't have a massive nanopool and casting those laddered drains eat up a fair amount. Plunder -does- get countered by anyone who spent any time tweaking NR anyway.

    Then again I don't run around with Mochams, I prefer Comp Mastery, so *shrug*. Trade off of staying power at a defense compared to wtfuber drains I guess.
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Hacre View Post
    Plunder already is higher than 100%, considerably higher.

    Just level lock Nanites to 75 or 76+ to keep them out of that level range BS and lower, job done. High TL3 and onwards is where other professions catch up to Trader effectiveness in PvP, excluding NR setup Enforcers at the lower TLs.

    People forget that TL1/2 Traders don't have a massive nanopool and casting those laddered drains eat up a fair amount. Plunder -does- get countered by anyone who spent any time tweaking NR anyway.

    Then again I don't run around with Mochams, I prefer Comp Mastery, so *shrug*. Trade off of staying power at a defense compared to wtfuber drains I guess.
    Drains will still land on a low level NR enf, not as much obviously, but its often enough to make you question NRs effectiveness. And nanopool is almost never an issue either. Traders can still drain up to the +260 CL buff, and still put on outrageous amounts of NCU-- even at the lower levels. So what's hunting down just another couple buffs? -cost and HE anyone?
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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Hacre View Post
    Plunder already is higher than 100%, considerably higher.

    Just level lock Nanites to 75 or 76+ to keep them out of that level range BS and lower, job done. High TL3 and onwards is where other professions catch up to Trader effectiveness in PvP, excluding NR setup Enforcers at the lower TLs.

    People forget that TL1/2 Traders don't have a massive nanopool and casting those laddered drains eat up a fair amount. Plunder -does- get countered by anyone who spent any time tweaking NR anyway.

    Then again I don't run around with Mochams, I prefer Comp Mastery, so *shrug*. Trade off of staying power at a defense compared to wtfuber drains I guess.
    Just cos you have a 90ish trader!

    IMO they should come in at somepoint TL4 (130?)
    Deadfroobs - 18 agent- Work in progress
    Reidsangry - 30 enf - Work in progress
    Reidsmp - 76 mp
    Reidsagent - 95 agent/enf
    Reidsdrainz - 114 agent
    Reidscrat - 161 crat
    Reids - 218 crat
    Reidventurer - 220 advy
    Reidsma - 220 MA

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