Complete Healing

[Mostadio]

I suppose all of you that want to nerf doctor healing either via removing their heal or by their ability to use it (nerfing nanopool) also support that if this is actually done, then doctors get a boost to their passive defenses and offenses to the point that they get the killing and staying power to kill their opponents before their nano runs out....

or is all you want really an easy and free kill with little to no risk of dying, unless you really want to?

I really honestly believe the last part is what most people want.

I think they want to be able to kill doctors without having to pack a lunch. After the first five minutes of the battle you just want the doctor to go away.

Granted, the following isn't an issue with CH, but I have the same problem with TL7 docs and their massive and quick heals, either kill me quick or move on. I don't expect them to roll over and die, but at least let me move on and do something productive with my time. I really don't enjoy feeding bullet after bullet into a doc for 20 mins hoping he makes a mistake or one of us dies of old age.

[Mekh]

I think they want to be able to kill doctors without having to pack a lunch. After the first five minutes of the battle you just want the doctor to go away.

Granted, the following isn't an issue with CH, but I have the same problem with TL7 docs and their massive and quick heals, either kill me quick or move on. I don't expect them to roll over and die, but at least let me move on and do something productive with my time. I really don't enjoy feeding bullet after bullet into a doc for 20 mins hoping he makes a mistake or one of us dies of old age.

Well, the Doc sure can't force you to stay around... but you can force the Doc to stay while you run off though.

[Mostadio]

Well, the Doc sure can't force you to stay around... but you can force the Doc to stay while you run off though.

The doc can also just follow me and keep spamming dots at me. Just because you have low runspeed doesn't mean every other prof is fast. Root grafts and snare mines can be fun, but they're on long locks. Usually I double nanomine the doc at some point before I give up and saunter off.

[Lupusceleri]

Again, the most telling and truthful way to see why nerfs on these are needed is just to check the duel wins on ANY prof who has CH at Tl5.

Docs: are, over a HUGE sample number about 8 wins to 5 losses.
Agents: are, again, over a HUGE sample set, about 5 W:1 L
Advies: are, over HUGE sample set about 2 W:1 L

That is the most obvious method of checking which profs are faring better than others. It's obvious, and it doesn't lie.

Again:

- PvP is not balanced for duels.
- TL5 Agents are easily one of the best performing professions to play if you're undergeared/poor, while a well geared "other" twink is needed to kill one. IE you won't see the average pvmer take a TL5 Doc Agent down.
- TL5 Doc Agents are extremely vulnerable to debuffs, yet the MAJORITY of TL5 twinks are epeen alpha profs without very much debuffing potential.
- As a result of the above, yes, Doc Agents overall have a lot of duel wins. But does this mean all these duels were fair, or does this mean all these duels were "balanced"?

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Again:

- PvP is not balanced for duels.
- TL5 Agents are easily one of the best performing professions to play if you're undergeared/poor, while a well geared "other" twink is needed to kill one. IE you won't see the average pvmer take a TL5 Doc Agent down.
- TL5 Doc Agents are extremely vulnerable to debuffs, yet the MAJORITY of TL5 twinks are epeen alpha profs without very much debuffing potential.
- As a result of the above, yes, Doc Agents overall have a lot of duel wins. But does this mean all these duels were fair, or does this mean all these duels were "balanced"?

As a response to point#3, agent won't do FP doc vs debuffing profs, they will do enf in duels, So that point isn't really valid, thats more of a -this is how to equalize a FP doc agent in open PVP- which is or isn't applicable depending on whos'e present, but, it certainly isn't a factor contributing to agent losses in duels.

Point #4, as long as they weren't exploited, I am under the assumption that they were fair and balanced. I mean, we're all working the umbrella of AO mechanics, unless youre talking about equipment.

But, I must bring up one other thing, which is: in no "fair" duel, would an agent even start to use his toolset, and, as one agent I dueled pointed out, "If Agents used their whole toolset in duels, they wouldn't lose"

Which, pretty much says it all. :/

[Ebondevil]

I think they want to be able to kill doctors without having to pack a lunch. After the first five minutes of the battle you just want the doctor to go away.

Granted, the following isn't an issue with CH, but I have the same problem with TL7 docs and their massive and quick heals, either kill me quick or move on. I don't expect them to roll over and die, but at least let me move on and do something productive with my time. I really don't enjoy feeding bullet after bullet into a doc for 20 mins hoping he makes a mistake or one of us dies of old age.

For a doctor's heals to be balanced they need to be strong enough to support and maintain the survival of a full team of players with one to two backup healers (Adventurer/Agent/Martial Artists/Meta-Physicist/Trader), at the very ;east they should have a good chance of keeping themselves and one other non-healing profession alive against 2 other people. This means that one-on-one it should be virtually impossible to kill a doctor, their heals should be too powerful for it and justifiably so.

If you're tired of taking so long to kill a doc, do what the developers intended and have been trying to balance for, bring other people!

One thing does come to mind though since everyone is so intent on reducing Doctors healing. Enhance a doctors healing capabilities proportionate to how many players are in the doctors team. This would allow the doctors heals to scale with the complexity of the job of keeping everyone in their team alive while allowing for the heals themselves to be weakened.

[Mekh]

For a doctor's heals to be balanced they need to be strong enough to support and maintain the survival of a full team of players with one to two backup healers (Adventurer/Agent/Martial Artists/Meta-Physicist/Trader), at the very ;east they should have a good chance of keeping themselves and one other non-healing profession alive against 2 other people. This means that one-on-one it should be virtually impossible to kill a doctor, their heals should be too powerful for it and justifiably so.

If you're tired of taking so long to kill a doc, do what the developers intended and have been trying to balance for, bring other people!

One thing does come to mind though since everyone is so intent on reducing Doctors healing. Enhance a doctors healing capabilities proportionate to how many players are in the doctors team. This would allow the doctors heals to scale with the complexity of the job of keeping everyone in their team alive while allowing for the heals themselves to be weakened.

Pretty spot on and I kinda like the suggestion at the end.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

me too. Good call ebon. Doc's should be unkillable. /Agree but, the need to put themself in a position to be killed while trying to kill another person.

IMO, this is almost accurate right now: Doc's are nearly unkillable via nano depletion if they are on the defensive. However, everone knows that you can't kill with heals, SO, malp is a high cost attack, which works, and, puts significant strain on the doc.

The only problem, is at TL5, 6, 7 is that damn doctor ring proc. Using malp should put the doc at a disadvantage. Curently, a doc will ALWAYS be able to get a heal off, and that isn't good. using Malp should put a lock out on heals or a -% on heal efficiency, so that if a doc DOES go on the offensive, he is opening himself to attack.

[Kazeran]

me too. Good call ebon. Doc's should be unkillable. /Agree but, the need to put themself in a position to be killed while trying to kill another person.

IMO, this is almost accurate right now: Doc's are nearly unkillable via nano depletion if they are on the defensive. However, everone knows that you can't kill with heals, SO, malp is a high cost attack, which works, and, puts significant strain on the doc.

Right..

The only problem, is at TL5, 6, 7 is that damn doctor ring proc.

Are you really going to attempted to use that as a argument? A proc thats so amazing it keeps all doctors full of nano? Please play a TL7 doctor and tell me you don't run out of nano trying to kill anyone who knows what they are doing.

Using malp should put the doc at a disadvantage.

Not being able to heal isnt a disadvantage enough?

Curently, a doc will ALWAYS be able to get a heal off, and that isn't good.

Why isnt that good? Every other prof can use their defense indefinitely why shouldn't doctors be able to?

using Malp should put a lock out on heals or a -% on heal efficiency, so that if a doc DOES go on the offensive, he is opening himself to attack.

What other profs has their defense nerfed when they actively use their offense? Sure everyone to a degree, however no other prof does a 180 when switching from defense to offense.

Not meaning to pick apart your post, was trying to make a point.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

which was?


TL 7 Docs are Op'd atm, and at TL5 doc ring is definitly OP'd, which are my points, So what was your point?

If a doc plays defensively, and doesn't try to kill the other person, they can pretty much outlast indefinitely. It's true at TL5, TL4, and Tl7. Dunno about Tl6.

So, which part of my post wasn't accurate, or wasn't a reasonable suggestion?

No other prof has access to all their defences indefinitly, contrary to what you think:

Many perks after single use have a 10 minute, 5 minute recharge. Dimach is a Major component of many melee profs alphas has a 60m recharge. Sure, it's available "indefinitly" but the fight has to go for an HOUR before it's available again.

So, ya, you want to outlast indefinitly... but, realistically doc ring needs a nerf.

[Burgly]

Dimach is a Major component of many melee profs alphas has a 60m recharge.

Ain't keeper dimach the only one with 60min recharge? Everyone else has 30min if i remember correct (Except shade with 5min, and works diffrently same as keepers)

And MAs got like what? 10min recharge?

[Ciex]

TL5 doc will be able to spam CH almost to the end of the world even without ofab ring if only they wont overuse dots. Its common that agents who don’t have nano regain on their rings and have worse –nano cost due to mimic drawback can heal and heal and heal and heal even some more once UBT lands. And docs have better nano tools; higher –nano cost mods, nano regain in their symbiants, higher psychic … Ive been around before ofab rings and I haven’t seen tl5 docs running out of nano then so ive no idea why should they now.

Im sorry to say that but a spammable nano that fills your hp back to 100% from almost 0 is as retarded as a nano that puts your hp from 100% to almost 0 (aka triple) and both of them should go away with other sick crap. Maybe at last it could be changed from “complete healing ” to “¾ healing” and heal only ¾ of you hp so in theory it would be possible to wear those docs and agents down without “alpha skeelz”. Or complete healing with 7,5k heal. 10k isn’t complete anyway as a tl5 doc or agent will run around with 11-13k hp most likely if I remember correctly.

[shishu]

when this thread start?i miss all the action...:-(

I read all the pages beside last 1 were mcknuc and ciek start posting again
Do you guys think that ring is OP?c.mon ...its very good only on PVM (tl5 perspective)
When i did start my twink doc i didnt use that ring in pvp ...is not that you put him on bar and when you click on him is filling your nano pool
I did use ring at the end of my tl5 career cuz now i lvl him
But it dont fire when you need most and i did replace AI ring whit ofab cuz of after add's vs AI version since i was lack of BM and not for proc

As for chain cast CH for my opi doc was about 18 time using battle prep kits...but in pvp/bs you cant cast so many times self buffet ofc
You need to UBT/Dot's and that takes time and eats nano fast and if your target counter same your find your self that you NEED to click your ofab ring that you put on action bar next to CH

My twink doc(was) evade 1....c'mon....i did use alot of evade/dodge even doc dodge ring and same good agents/soldier(just 1 soldier for tl5 was able to kill me)fixer/can alpha me...and i was not a gimp doc
As for melle...well enf (allot off ) can alpha a doc

I did same duels too
Yes...we can kill all prof's but we can die too
I could belive when a MP/Engi did win over my doc...(so if you put same effort in your toon you have hight chante to win

Same1 post that will be nice if CH will be off game and make better heals...but doing that way we need dot's?
Tl5 doc have low ar...most off my perk's i could not use

So w/o CH tl5 doc's will be like MP whit just heal ball in med suit

Tx

[Kazeran]

which was?


TL 7 Docs are Op'd atm, and at TL5 doc ring is definitly OP'd, which are my points, So what was your point?

If a doc plays defensively, and doesn't try to kill the other person, they can pretty much outlast indefinitely. It's true at TL5, TL4, and Tl7. Dunno about Tl6.

So, which part of my post wasn't accurate, or wasn't a reasonable suggestion?

No other prof has access to all their defences indefinitly, contrary to what you think:

Many perks after single use have a 10 minute, 5 minute recharge. Dimach is a Major component of many melee profs alphas has a 60m recharge. Sure, it's available "indefinitly" but the fight has to go for an HOUR before it's available again.

So, ya, you want to outlast indefinitly... but, realistically doc ring needs a nerf.

I pointed out everything you said that i thought was wrong, how much clearer of a point do you need?


When did peoples evades and reflects go to 0 after a certian amount of time? I could add more examples but i hope thats enough. Peoples active defense does go down after a time such a perks. Their passive defense never does though. Guess what, doctors have no passive defense. We only have an active defense. Why should doctors be the only prof who has a limit on their defense?

Why are you trying to drag in a 30 min lock skill into this? It has little to do with CH. If your going to complain you can't kill a doctor by yourself try bringing people. Do you honestly feel you should be able to single handedly destroy a profession thats purpose is to heal and not have trouble killing them?

Complaining about a ring that in mass pvp, has little effect, is getting alittle old.

[Ciex]

Sishu, werent you the guy who couldnt kill lvl 150 NT in a duel and finally (pretty fast) run out of nano and lost?

[shishu]

Sishu, werent you the guy who couldnt kill lvl 150 NT in a duel and finally (pretty fast) run out of nano and lost?

No...my duel whit any 150 toon was i win...our drawn whit a nice doc cost setup
I'm that 174 doc you could not kill in BS and allways run of me

[Marinegent]

The root of the problem is this - No profession should be invulnerable to any profession, and therefore should be killable (to different degrees) by all other professions.

TL5 Docs with CH are at this near invulnerable stage, even more so with OSB's to a mass number of professions. The problem isn't CH necessarily, it's that you can get high passive evades, nerf inits to all hell, out heal almost anyone 1 on 1, and still be able to deal a decent round of damage via AS and DoTS. It's pretty close to having "everything"

Even as a TL5 soldier with the ole' burst/fa/AS + perks alpha, alpha'ing a tl5 doc requires them to practically be asleep, as burst/fa/AS + perks is not enough damage in and of itself if they are at full health, which most are, and I cite UBT as that problem. Soon as my normals are nerfed you can't wear the doc down.

I don't have the solution necessarily, but i'd perhaps start by saying init debuffs may need a rework? Maybe a combination of init debuffs, a modification to how heals work (nerfing the amount healed as you spam the heals, or perhaps making nanodrains or -% heal eff's a possible toolset of most if not all professions?... just scrounging at ideas here..)

[Ebondevil]

The root of the problem is this - No profession should be invulnerable to any profession, and therefore should be killable (to different degrees) by all other professions.

I would agree if the game was balanced around 1-on-1 fights or Duels, however it's not, so I have to disagree with you here.

[Essessceeaych]

If a doc plays defensively, and doesn't try to kill the other person, they can pretty much outlast indefinitely

So wait, what you mean to say is that if a doc doesn't die, they also can't kill people?


WHOA

[Parranoid1]

yes, couse CH is only used in pvp.

doctors in general are fine, there are pleanty of docs at tl5, and alot of them can be killed quite easily, and guess what, they ALL have CH. the difference between the run of the mill doctor and the stuper twink doctors (that im assuming your all whining about). is the amount of evades/max hp combined with the init debuffing. CH itself isnt OP, its when its coupled with other things that make it powerful.

lets put it this way, advy has a CH, and many would say thats OP, but it has a 13 sec cast time and 13 sec recharge and takes 200 more nano then the doctor CH. but it ISNT op, on its own, its when its combined with evades/coon that its OP.

Same sorta thing here.

the doctor ring isnt exactly OP, couse alot of the nano regeneration from a good doctor come from stims/battle prepared nano chargers/genius perk. the ring is more of a "oh, cool i can dot a couple times now" or ah "ooooooh thank christ for that".

oh and by the way, no matter how hard you wish it, doctors DONT have a good offence.