Post Re-balancing - tanks and healers

[lostlife]

i dont see a issue with this, as long as the keepers need more support to tank with less (not much less) efficiency. if keeper is tanking, i want to see the docs heart stop a few times if the keeper makes a bad move (bad move for keeper=mildly difficult situation for enfo, so tha enfos retain their master tank status).

i see solds more as a tank one difficult mob at a time prof, because tanking 10-15 with no form of aoe taunt could very easily lead to a dead doc.

this example is for ipande: keeper tanks to bosses, then sold tanks bosses (keeper maybe tanking bosses, but needs freaking awesome skills+complete tank setup+non e-bayed docs).

[Xfire]

moonbolt, have you never seen an enfo not tank? enfos can set up to be a dd prof, and yet suck at tanking while doing so, should the reverse not be true for at least a few people? being an enfo you've clearly never gotten a full team set up with the exception of an enfo, and had 10+ people just break up and go off and do something else as a result.

stop trollin'

[Moonbolt]

u dont know the meaning of trolling aperantly...
dissagreeing with u != trolling.

and no i never seen a raid fail cause there is no enfs.. theres plenty of enfs on both servers playing this game.
same as i wait to start raids in my guild untill we haev docs online ... due to the fact that i need a doc healing me.
its nto a problem.. if i cant raid right now... then ill raid in an hour or tomorrow..

[Xfire]

let me break this down so you can understand it, here's some quotes along the lines of your thinking:

"i'm a shade and i rolled a shade because i like to dd, noone else should be allowed to have good dd"

"we shouldn't use the internet because it wasn't around when i was born, screw progress"

if keepers get tanking ability, you'll still be a better tank than they will, (assuming you're not an idiot)

[Moonbolt]

and as i said..
WoW tried to do exactly what u guys are suggesting and it completly and utterly dumbed down the game and made the professions so similar to eachother that they basically lost all their diversity.
every class getting some kind of AoE.
All tank classes got AoE tanking.
Almost all classes got CC.
All classes got similar DD.

its ruining the whole "chose a class" part of the game cause basically u rolled 1 of 3 things.. CC tank or healer instead of 10 different classes.
u choose a class cause it has a purpose.
if u are unclear abotu the purpose of the classes in AO i sugegst u go to the roll a new char - select class - window and read thru the description of the classes.

[Warhead]

what soldier has rolled a soldier to tank?

I did, with my very first char in fact. And it did not turn out to be a false impression back then. Soldiers were always tanks. Tanks without proper aggro management though. In a few select situations they used to be better tanks than enfs (at least for the duration of TMS/AMS - instant one-time-use tanks anyone? ) but in most situations they were and still are not.

The distinguished quality of an enf tank is his/her/its aggro control, not just being a meatshield with more hp than anyone else. I dont think funcom will change that, so dont worry.

[Iamkama]

Moonbolt - 220/26/something. Trox Enf RK1

well there's your problem. so, if you've got something useful to add then go ahead and say it. "im enfo dont give my team spot to a keeper/soldier because i hate game diversity" doesn't really count.

Yeah that about solves this argument right there.

He's pissed because people think that professions that aren't his shouldnt tank, because god forbid people get to get into teams doing things they like to do without being bottlenecked into a certain profession.

[Xfire]

i dunno if you realise this or not, but this isn't wow, the level of skill and thought required to do anything in wow is at about the level of a soldier in ao, whereas, stack 2 stats up on your gear and use 3 buttons and /win.

the difference between wow and ao, is that in wow, you're entitled to do anything you want so long as you satisfy your gear, and what people are set up to do is based entirely on their spec (the equivalent of perks i suppose).

what i'm getting at, is that in wow, you get all your stats handed to you, in ao, you have to give up things to get something else, thus effectively stopping one profession from being able to do everything (of course, the devs managed to royally screw this up with the ranged advy situation, but that's another topic).

the OPTION to tank and heal for more classes by all means should be available, and the decision whether to pursue those or not should be entirely up to the player. as to moonbolt, you can set your enfo up as a pure dd prof if you want, but you wouldn't be able to tank ****, why should noone else get the opposite option?

[Obtena]

IMO it doesn't matter.There are instances where a enfo tanks better than any other prof. Nothing will change that unless soldiers and keepers get mongo-like taunts. FC isn't going to do that.

Heals? Same thing. TFC isn't going to give the same extreme healing efficiencies and tools that docs have to Advy, etc... so it doesn't matter either.

There will never be a day when someone thinks ... hey lets add risk to the success of our raid and let the keeper tank. People will always seek the lease risk unless their purpose is to show it can be done.

[Argotach]

I'm all for this.

I'm a person who doesn't necessarily like playing the cookie-cutter prof for the role. I like diversity. For example, my first paid character was an advy -- because I wanted a character who could heal. I don't expect to be the best healer, I certainly don't expect to even nearly equal a doc, and if there's a doc in the team he/she will obviously take the role of primary healer, and I'll provide DD or slip into the role of what I like to call "support healer".

In the same vein, a while ago I rolled a keeper, for the reason that I wanted a character with the ability to tank, but didn't want to roll a 'cookie-cutter' tank enf (yes, some people have rolled a keeper to tank!) In honesty I haven't played him in a while, but last time I did was at Spade Tiigs. No enfo was present, but I did what I believe was a fairly good job of tanking and managed to hold aggro - when I left the team I was told I did a great job. Again, if an enforcer was present I would gladly have let him/her tank -- they have the toolset to tank much more effectively than my keeper.

The idea is to make profs viable as tanks or healers without having a specific tank/healer profession around in the team - at a cost. So, if no doc were present in a team containing my adventurer, I may have to slip into Tree form in order to be an effective healer. Obviously I won't be able to do damage while healing, and I still won't be as effective as a doctor, but it adds diversity as people could roll advies/agents to perform a healing role instead of conforming to this 'locked in' mindset that "Healers = Doctors, period". Likewise with rolling keepers/soldiers to prevent the mindset that "Tanks = Enforcers, period". Having other options is not a bad idea - but nobody is saying that they should match up to THE tank/healer profession.

--Argo

[Avari]

Moonbolt - 220/26/something. Trox Enf RK1

well there's your problem. so, if you've got something useful to add then go ahead and say it. "im enfo dont give my team spot to a keeper/soldier because i hate game diversity" doesn't really count.

What you're suggesting sounds an awful lot like making enforcers and doctors obsolete, so pardon me if said profesions don't like the idea. A primary tank and heal profession will always exist. The most imbalanced profession atm is a profession that excels at nothing, but is better than average in everything.

[Insert idiot comparison]

Your example fails because sweeping the floor isn't a unique ability. Specialization is what makes a profession unique - not the ability to cast generic buffs.

[sultryvoltron]

What you're suggesting sounds an awful lot like making enforcers and doctors obsolete, so pardon me if said profesions don't like the idea. A primary tank and heal profession will always exist. The most imbalanced profession atm is a profession that excels at nothing, but is better than average in everything.

A well equipped, knowledgable Agent and Advy should be able to heal any endgame encounter when coupled with a tank who is equally well equipped and knowledgable.

So, for multiple mobs an Agent or Advy should be able to keep an Enf alive. For single mobs, both professions should be able to keep a soldier alive.

A Doctor should be able to easily keep alive a well equipped Soldier or Keeper, who should both have ablities other than damage to maintain aggro. To some extent, small AoE taunts.

A well equipped lower healer and a well equipped lower tank, with plenty of support professions assisting, should be able to do most endgame encounters.

If you want easymode PvM for everyone, get an Enf and Doc. If you want to work at it, get other sub healers/tanks.

Before someone pulls the biased card, I have a well equipped PvM Doctor who has healed every endgame boss barring s42.

[Legion84]

What you're suggesting sounds an awful lot like making enforcers and doctors obsolete, so pardon me if said profesions don't like the idea. A primary tank and heal profession will always exist. The most imbalanced profession atm is a profession that excels at nothing, but is better than average in everything.

Totally agree, i like the idea of Enf/Doc teams advy, sol.. ma and other classes can stick to the dd/assist heals like support proffessions can do, and i agree with moonbolt, lets not make doctors or enfs obsolete from teams as they hate to solo at certain levels or depending on their setup it's not as fun

After all the challenge of none easy mode is still there if you can't find a doctor or enf by chalenging the game without them!

[Iamkama]

Totally agree, i like the idea of Enf/Doc teams advy, sol.. ma and other classes can stick to the dd/assist heals like support proffessions can do, and i agree with moonbolt, lets not make doctors or enfs obsolete from teams as they hate to solo at certain levels or depending on their setup it's not as fun

After all the challenge of none easy mode is still there if you can't find a doctor or enf by chalenging the game without them!

But the problem still persists, that if theres more of certain professions than there are docs/enfos, what are you gonna do when ONLY docs/enfos are needed for certain things?

[XenonDe]

What outside of large scale raids does currently require a enf or doc as tank?

Normal leveling certainly doesn't, neither do most quests. Raids and encounters is where enf and doc are needed and even many of these are doable without them. Apf and pande comes to mind with requiring both doc and enf, most others are doable without both or either one.
Even with me playing doc mainly, we docs are more required then enfos in regard to tanking. I can understand the enfs not liking the idea.

I think giving the advy/agent the option to increase their healing power by sacrificing offense and defense isn't a bad idea. Has to be carefully balanced to docs power but docs are already a luxury instead of necessity for regular leveling so I don't expect it to turn worse.

Adding more taunting abilities for keepers and soldiers can be nice too. But that has to be done very carefully as enfos allready have huge rivals in keeper and soldier, the soldier being a great single target taunter with the weakness of aoe tauns and the keeper being limited by the recharge time of the aoe taunt and it's relatively small taunt. Both soldier and keeper offer much more to the team then a enfo so that has to be kept in mind with increased Tank/Taunting abilities.

[DrLithvium]

Lots of endgame content can be done without the use of enf or doc. With crat its pretty easy.

Problem with some adventurers is that they dont heal when they should. Crats are almost more important than doc in doing endgame content atm.

[Avari]

A well equipped, knowledgable Agent and Advy should be able to heal any endgame encounter when coupled with a tank who is equally well equipped and knowledgable.

Then you might as well remove doctors from the game. Why would anyone ever team a doctor if they can get the same survivability from an advie/agent and better dmg on top? Doctors would be a last resort leaving an entire profession in the void.

About being biased - I have a soldier too and I care crap all if they're nerfed to hell and back again. Having a doctor doesn't mean you're not biased.

The current state of things is actually quite balanced. You can do a certain amount of content without a primary healer/tanker, and there's certain content you need said professions for. When I leveled to 220 with my doctor you were forced to always have a doctor in your team or otherwise you couldn't level. That's not how it should be, but it shouldn't be the exact opposite either, where you'll never need a doctor.

All I read in this thread is people wanting very few classes that can do it all... let's all roll solpers.

[sultryvoltron]

Then you might as well remove doctors from the game. Why would anyone ever team a doctor if they can get the same survivability from an advie/agent and better dmg on top? Doctors would be a last resort leaving an entire profession in the void.

About being biased - I have a soldier too and I care crap all if they're nerfed to hell and back again. Having a doctor doesn't mean you're not biased.

The current state of things is actually quite balanced. You can do a certain amount of content without a primary healer/tanker, and there's certain content you need said professions for. When I leveled to 220 with my doctor you were forced to always have a doctor in your team or otherwise you couldn't level. That's not how it should be, but it shouldn't be the exact opposite either, where you'll never need a doctor.

All I read in this thread is people wanting very few classes that can do it all... let's all roll solpers.

Except, as per what FC has said, professions such as Agent and Advy will do less damage while functioning as a healer. Rest assured, everyone's doctor will still be their primary healer, but an alternate may work in a pinch.

[Lazuraz]

Well if they are lowering the Enforcers health (quite a bit from what I've been reading) then they should give him heals to that use bio met and meta morph (the mongo/challenger nano line reqs) and make it decent and reasonable.

[Avari]

There's a long way from this...

A well equipped, knowledgable Agent and Advy should be able to heal any endgame encounter when coupled with a tank who is equally well equipped and knowledgable.

to this...

...but an alternate may work in a pinch.

...so as long as we're clear on professions keeping their unique abilities without having them watered down by other professions, then we can agree.