Post Re-balancing - tanks and healers

[erozc]

Personally I said that we need to find a middle road. Some place where you don't need a doctor/enforcer for everything you do, but still need it for the large raids and are beneficial to have for smaller raids.

Then again, wouldn't that mean that needing the following professions should be required in large raids (an example):

- NT/MP/trader to keep nano levels topped up
- NT/Crat/trader to calm adds
- MA/Advy to help in healing
- Shade/Engie to do massive damage (or some such).
- Agents could provide backup in any role
- Fixer to... well, make the raid look cool

Too bad you don't need any of the above at the moment for the roles described there.

As everyone knows, currently for max efficiency you just need a doc to heal, usually an enf to tank, soldier for reflects, crat for CC and debuffs. The rest of us want to be NEEDED as well, but obviously you can't require to have one of each profession present. Still, there should be no tag for any profession that says "required in endgame raids" or "not required in endgame raids". Obviously it'd be best if all professions could contribute in their own unique way at similar levels of effectiviness, but that is currently not happening.

Just being the primary healing or tanking profession doesn't mean that there should be an automatic requirement to always have such a profession present, even in endgame raids. All professions should be similarly needed but each profession shouldn't be required - it's just that various mixes of professions should work.

[Avari]

- NT/MP/trader to keep nano levels topped up
- NT/Crat/trader to calm adds
- MA/Advy to help in healing
- Shade/Engie to do massive damage (or some such).
- Agents could provide backup in any role
- Fixer to... well, make the raid look cool

Only one true end game raid exists atm, and that's Sec42. Currently it takes enough people that you almost always have all professions represented. We've rarely had trouble getting the right people for the job, and it usualy takes three enforcers and a handfull of doctors.

If doctors become less needed than they are today you might as well remove them from the game. I'm all for redefining the doctor class, since we have a ****ty balance between offensive and defensive tools. Just remember this thread, when doctors are given more powerful debuff tools, more powerfull offensive to make up for it, and their healing is nerfed somewhat, but still not so much that they're no longer the primary healers. Yes, ladies and gentlemen, we have the new adventurers coming up.

[sultryvoltron]

Only one true end game raid exists atm, and that's Sec42. Currently it takes enough people that you almost always have all professions represented. We've rarely had trouble getting the right people for the job, and it usualy takes three enforcers and a handfull of doctors.

If doctors become less needed than they are today you might as well remove them from the game. I'm all for redefining the doctor class, since we have a ****ty balance between offensive and defensive tools. Just remember this thread, when doctors are given more powerful debuff tools, more powerfull offensive to make up for it, and their healing is nerfed somewhat, but still not so much that they're no longer the primary healers. Yes, ladies and gentlemen, we have the new adventurers coming up.

You just don't get it. Nothing suggested here would take away from Doctors being the primary healers. This is about substituting a Doctor for a different profession. I should be able to use an Advy to heal well enough that I don't have to have a Doc, ASSUMING that I have appropriate support professions to lighten the healing load.

And yes Eroz, Agents should (and hopefully will) be able to fill in for any role, be it tank, healer, CCer, etc.

[Avari]

You just don't get it.

It's debatable who doesn't get what. Read on and I'll enlighten you as to why.

Nothing suggested here would take away from Doctors being the primary healers.

Please show me where I claim it does - seriously, I've never said it would, so that's 1-0 in my favour on the Who-Doesn't-Get-It-Scoreboard. What's the use of a primary healer if a secondary healer is enough and you get more dmg as an added bonus?

What I have said is that:

If doctors become less needed than they are today you might as well remove them from the game.

So that's 2-0 in my favour on the Who-Doesn't-Get-It-Scoreboard. I'll be modest and not go for a hat-trick.

This is about substituting a Doctor for a different profession.

Finally someone is saying it openly.

I should be able to use an Advy to heal well enough that I don't have to have a Doc, ASSUMING that I have appropriate support professions to lighten the healing load.

This is already possible in inferno missions. Even hard missions are fairly easy without a doctor. You know what happened when people figured this out? Doctors were no longer invited to teams if they didn't know someone in it, and now you're advocating for the same thing to happen to raids. Please forgive me that I use empirical data to prove my point and not just conjured up examples.

And yes Eroz, Agents should (and hopefully will) be able to fill in for any role, be it tank, healer, CCer, etc.

This part truly baffles me. Do you really think that in a game environment this is plausible? If agents were able to do that, then everyone would roll agents and nothing else.

[Anarrina]

Calm it down in here and stop being cranky at each other. Thanks.

[erozc]

Today, I got invited to a pande raid. Woohoo! That was because I was actively seeking for one and harassed a lot of people. I was needed, in the end, since I was calling. This was a two team raid, 12 people, not uber people, a few 215s, 220/19 enf tanking.

First, we spent nearly 30 minutes looking for a tank. One of the 2 docs and the other crat plus the soldier left at that time. Finally, the raid leader found an enforcer and invited a shade as well. Comments from both parties were approximately:

- Shade: About time, over 2 hours on lft
- Enf: Lol I spent about 15 seconds as usual

Then, another 15 minutes was spent searching for another doc. Even though we had one already, and an agent, and 2 advies, it wasn't deemed sufficient. Finally we found one and got going. Even then, the tank died after TNH due to a bad pull (and bad docs and other support healers? ), among with a few others. I wish I could say that my healing was of any use there but it really wasn't.

Morales present in this story:

- Enf and doc are currently the core professions any raid needs.
- Other professions do quite the crappy job at substituting either (even though the soldier tanked some things after enfo death)
- While uber people with clockwork-like cooperation pull Pande off with just a trader and NT duo or whatever, it doesn't work in pickup groups

The only time my heals might have made a difference is when beast nuked a couple of times in rapid succession. I couldn't do a thing to save the enf from death even though I used stims, heal spam, bio regrowth + rejuvenation. It would've been nice to make a difference. But I suppose that's a doc's job.

[XenonDe]

Making tanking for Keeper and Soldier easier is fine and dandy.
Making healing for secondary healers better is fine and dandy.
Thhe problem is the scale of the improvement and what you see docs and enfos point out.

Enfos are not required for 95% of the game. They are needed for some raids, and then even only the biggest of them. That is the role of a primary tanking profession. If you make other tanks - with more damage/more benefits for the team - able to fulfill that role you might as well remove their role as primary tanks.


Docs are not required for 90% of the game. They are needed for some raids, more so then enfos, but also not for all raids. Being needed for the big raids if their role as the primary healer profession. Pvm though got more and more easy and any leveling can easily be and is done without docs. Check the doc boards for complaints of leveling docs.
If secondary healers can do the doc jobs in more raids, offering more damage/buffs to the team, you may as well remove that purpose from docs. Ideally large raids should use a combination of secondary and primary healers.



Quick summary of leveling and raids:
Leveling 1-150:
Enfs - Not needed but can fulfil their role, but unwanted for the primary form of leveling nowadays: Outside tanking
docs - Needed for some encounters, but unwanted for the primary form of leveling nowadays: Outside tanking
Leveling 151-215:
Enfs - at low levels unwanted as tanks for the regular leveling spots. Other professions outperform them in tanking abillities.
docs - Needed for lower level spots (ado hecks), unneeded for inf missions. Unwanted for the primary form of leveling nowadays: Outside tanking.
Leveling 216-220 :
Enfs - Can do their job as tanks, but are often unwanted as their are better DDs available that can tank just as well.
Docs - Luxury item for missions when people feel lazy. Can keep everyone alive but only needed in a low level or badly setup team.
Arid farming:
Enfs - Not needed but good luxury item for stacking if crat is present.
docs - Needed for stacking if crat is present. Luxury item otherwise.

Zods/Beast: Enf required. Doc required.
Apfs: Enf required. Doc required.
Vortexx: Enf not required. Doc required.
Mitaar: Enf not required. Doc not required.
Elder halls: Enf not required. Doc required in most cases. Doable without
DB1: Enf not required. Doc required in most cases. Doable without.
Db2: Enf not required. Doc required in most cases. Doable without.
Hollow Island: Enf good to have. Doc nice to have. Doable without.
IS: Enf not required. Doc not required.
Biodome: Enf good to have. Docs required.

That balance can easily be shifted with added taking/healing abilities to secondaries and that is what you see enfs and docs comment about.

[sultryvoltron]

Blah blah blah.

Yeah, you get it. For sure.

Making tanking for Keeper and Soldier easier is fine and dandy.
Making healing for secondary healers better is fine and dandy.
Thhe problem is the scale of the improvement and what you see docs and enfos point out.

Enfos are not required for 95% of the game. They are needed for some raids, and then even only the biggest of them. That is the role of a primary tanking profession. If you make other tanks - with more damage/more benefits for the team - able to fulfill that role you might as well remove their role as primary tanks.


Docs are not required for 90% of the game. They are needed for some raids, more so then enfos, but also not for all raids. Being needed for the big raids if their role as the primary healer profession. Pvm though got more and more easy and any leveling can easily be and is done without docs. Check the doc boards for complaints of leveling docs.
If secondary healers can do the doc jobs in more raids, offering more damage/buffs to the team, you may as well remove that purpose from docs. Ideally large raids should use a combination of secondary and primary healers.



Quick summary of leveling and raids:
Leveling 1-150:
Enfs - Not needed but can fulfil their role, but unwanted for the primary form of leveling nowadays: Outside tanking
docs - Needed for some encounters, but unwanted for the primary form of leveling nowadays: Outside tanking
Leveling 151-215:
Enfs - at low levels unwanted as tanks for the regular leveling spots. Other professions outperform them in tanking abillities.
docs - Needed for lower level spots (ado hecks), unneeded for inf missions. Unwanted for the primary form of leveling nowadays: Outside tanking.
Leveling 216-220 :
Enfs - Can do their job as tanks, but are often unwanted as their are better DDs available that can tank just as well.
Docs - Luxury item for missions when people feel lazy. Can keep everyone alive but only needed in a low level or badly setup team.
Arid farming:
Enfs - Not needed but good luxury item for stacking if crat is present.
docs - Needed for stacking if crat is present. Luxury item otherwise.

Zods/Beast: Enf required. Doc required.
Apfs: Enf required. Doc required.
Vortexx: Enf not required. Doc required.
Mitaar: Enf not required. Doc not required.
Elder halls: Enf not required. Doc required in most cases. Doable without
DB1: Enf not required. Doc required in most cases. Doable without.
Db2: Enf not required. Doc required in most cases. Doable without.
Hollow Island: Enf good to have. Doc nice to have. Doable without.
IS: Enf not required. Doc not required.
Biodome: Enf good to have. Docs required.

That balance can easily be shifted with added taking/healing abilities to secondaries and that is what you see enfs and docs comment about.

I can't believe that people are counting any sort of grinding as "not needing a Doctor" as if that really counts as part of real PvM, instead of just stupid grinding. Also, you might find Docs more needed in PvM if there was less retarded pocketing. Just sayin'.

All those fun things that you list, most of which that say Docs required, or nice and helpful to have, yeah some of us would like to use our secondary healer classes to do those.

[XenonDe]

Yeah, you get it. For sure.


I can't believe that people are counting any sort of grinding as "not needing a Doctor" as if that really counts as part of real PvM, instead of just stupid grinding. Also, you might find Docs more needed in PvM if there was less retarded pocketing. Just sayin'.

All those fun things that you list, most of which that say Docs required, or nice and helpful to have, yeah some of us would like to use our secondary healer classes to do those.

Grinding and leveling does count to a lot of people that didn't ding 220 yet, the whole new blood into the game thing. Leveling those professions (or other deemed not perfect) for newer players without buddies powerleveling them blows. I can't say for the other profs but I'd be rich if I'd get a copper for each doc and enfo complaining about being wanted at endgame but no one wanting to level with them.

I agree with secondary healers getting a option to choose between better healing or damage. What I, and others are saying that it needs to be carefully balanced. If a advy or agent does the job posted as "Doc required" just as well, there'd be no reason to pick the doc over superior damage or buffs.

Same for enfos and their tanking. Keepers and soldiers bring a lot more to the team then enfos.

[sultryvoltron]

Grinding and leveling does count to a lot of people that didn't ding 220 yet, the whole new blood into the game thing. Leveling those professions (or other deemed not perfect) for newer players without buddies powerleveling them blows. I can't say for the other profs but I'd be rich if I'd get a copper for each doc and enfo complaining about being wanted at endgame but no one wanting to level with them.

I agree with secondary healers getting a option to choose between better healing or damage. What I, and others are saying that it needs to be carefully balanced. If a advy or agent does the job posted as "Doc required" just as well, there'd be no reason to pick the doc over superior damage or buffs.

Same for enfos and their tanking. Keepers and soldiers bring a lot more to the team then enfos.

About 10 people in my org are leveling profs through SL at the moment. We team up and rock our way through SL static dungeons, and hit up hecks for certain level ranges. The only problem leveling is OST teams. It's disgusting. I always pick up a doc to run a real team. As a doc I always formed a real team by inviting people instead of rotting on lft for a nooby pocket team.

You also have to keep in mind the other spectrum of the balance. If Advys/Agents aren't strong enough healers to do some of those "Doc Required" raids then the balance changes to improve their healing were wasted since they can't heal anything interesting anyways.

Also, let's not count out Doc buffs. UBT Procs, Team ILC, awesome team heals, ICH, and the incoming ability to stack dots, get better debuff abilities, and the possibility to do increased damage. I don't imagine docs being heal monkies only in teams with those kind of abilities...

[XenonDe]

You also have to keep in mind the other spectrum of the balance. If Advys/Agents aren't strong enough healers to do some of those "Doc Required" raids then the balance changes to improve their healing were wasted since they can't heal anything interesting anyways.

Guess that part we'll have to disagree on. Most encounters can be done with the current advy/agent heals. Increasing the heals will make more available and make it more viable. I agree that is a good thing. Currently advy/agent heals in large scale raids hardly even matter. This will change. Making them good enough healers to scrap docs for large scale raids altogether I do not agree with though and they have plenty of "interesting" encounters where they can heal without that change.

Also, let's not count out Doc buffs. UBT Procs, Team ILC, awesome team heals, ICH, and the incoming ability to stack dots, get better debuff abilities, and the possibility to do increased damage. I don't imagine docs being heal monkies only in teams with those kind of abilities...

Beside the point. UBT, ILC, Team Heals and debuffs are all a part of doc toolset to keep the raid alive, same as heals. It's the result that counts, in this case the survival of the raid - be it done by heals, ubt or hp buffs. If Agent/Advy can replace docs in that regard for every raid, it would hurt doctors.

Damage we may or may not get. Seems like we get to choose between using weapons for damage and cyberdecks for maximizing healing potential. Making docs focus on damage to be competitive for raids should not be the desired solution. Stacking of dots will be a nice change for regular leveling though, in raids docs are most often to busy to dot.