Debuffs: Do they enhance your pvp experiance?

[NoGoal]

I don't think that we need less debuffs, actually I would like more of them. There's only 2 issues atm: numbers and durations.

What I'd see is smaller stacking debuffs scattered amongst more professions. So 1 player could debuff but it wouldn't be as crippling as current debuffs. 2 different professions debuffing the same skill would hurt you more.

Also I see more and more uses of % instead of raw numbers in other games. That's a direction FC should follow a bit more imho. Or more skill-based effects. Easier to balance across all levels but will reduce the number of nanos.

[IHaveHugeNick]

in some cases might as well go for some coffee

Call a friend. You are playing an MMORPG , it means MULTIPLAYER.

[Mekh]

Call a friend. You are playing an MMORPG , it means MULTIPLAYER.

So... I'll go for coffee while whoever might be interested in coming to search for me, actually fights his way through the roots/snares/stuns to get to me...

Given anyone is even seeing the call in chat in the first place, and actually giving a dasm in the second.



No...
Debuffs/CC and what not is fine as concept, but their effect and duration needs to be toned down significantly in my opinion.

[Armus]

Nemesis nano's...

I would like to see these totally scrapped. The way they were implemented, some were highly useful, others were total junk. If they don't get scrapped, then please look into redoing all of them in a more balanced, and less drastic (as some of them are really OP compared to others) debuff.

After reading the following: On Borrow Reflect



Please Means, don't open this up to effect everyone with reflects running. Like I mentioned earlier in this post. Some Nemesis nano's are OP, while some are just garbage... Why move in this direction? It's not fun to be on the recieving end of alot of these debuffs. If anything, it turns people away from pvp, rather than draw them to it. From alot of people I have talked to in game. The nemesis nano's weren't well received. But now to expand on them, and allow more people to be effected by them? Please no. At least toss a poll up, ask the players, let them voice thier concerns.

Why are you suprised? Traders are most everyones nemesis as is already. Ofc it makes sense that they get a nemesis nano that works on everyone!

Personally I'm gonna LOVE my -1k piercing on everyone.

[IHaveHugeNick]

So... I'll go for coffee while whoever might be interested in coming to search for me, actually fights his way through the roots/snares/stuns to get to me...

Given anyone is even seeing the call in chat in the first place, and actually giving a dasm in the second.

Or maybe you shouldn't just be trying to go on your own to begin with, against professions who are supposed to be your nemesis. Just a thought.

No...
Debuffs/CC and what not is fine as concept, but their effect and duration needs to be toned down significantly in my opinion.

Everything that can cause your character to die needs to be toned down significantly in people's opinion, thing is, some professions depend on debuffs both as a offensive capability or to even survive.

Complaining about PvM duration on debuffs is completely silly, yes some snares last 26 minutes, and yet you can still remove it within 30 seconds which is perfectly reasonable.

[IHaveHugeNick]

Why are you suprised? Traders are most everyones nemesis as is already.

Correction: Traders are nemesis to few Flavour of The Month professions many people have rolled in a post-LE world , and, being spread like a plague, they cause regular uproar about Traders that has no corelation at all to the real impact Trader has on the battle.

[Mekh]

...snip...
Everything that can cause your character to die needs to be toned down significantly in people's opinion, thing is, some professions depend on debuffs both as a offensive capability or to even survive.
...snip...

Stop your trolling with putting words in my mouth I haven't said....

Maybe you should try to read what people write, so you at least can answer with some meaningful response that will be taken serious, rather than as a pathetic trolling attempt.

Should debuffs and CC be removed.... No, I do NOT think so, but their effect should get severely toned down as well as their duration.
Of course that would mean the professions currently relying on them as they are now, should get compensations for the nerf of said tools.

Complaining about PvM duration on debuffs is completely silly, yes some snares last 26 minutes, and yet you can still remove it within 30 seconds which is perfectly reasonable.

No.... Disabling someone for 30 seconds is far, far, far too long, which is exactly what a root/snare means to some professions.
You also conveniently forget that said snare can be refreshed indefinitely every 5 seconds or so...
This goes for most debuffs/CC.

Even taken to the extreme where everyone would get tools that could remove roots/snares immediately and also indefinitely by clicking on whatever, they would still retain some value.
Would that be too much? Indeed, I think so... but the way they currently work is completely out of wack imo.

[Towerblock]

To actually answer the title of this thread.

Yes, I find debuffs very much play enhancing for me.
As a enforcer, PVP is kinda meh... run in.. kill.. .run out. Make chaos happen.

As a sheild MP in PVP... I create way more chaos with debuffs. If i cant eNSD, then I switch to dmg debuffs or SS so I can survive for long periods of time, all the while kiting my ass off.

Sometimes I just like to run into whole groups of people.. .run around in circles and make them fight me for 3-4 minutes before I die, just so they can go after me instead of capping points. It's a rope-a-dope move, but that should tell you how many dopes there are in PVP.

In short.. i have found I waaaaay much more prefer my MP over my engi or my enforcer.

[sultryvoltron]

Debuffs are fine (with obvious exceptions ...). Duration and removability are the problems.

Get rid of GTH, BR, RI, and ALL NEMESIS NANOS. Create a few generic debuffs that are low-moderate in effect with corresponding recharges and let player skill determine how they will be used.

Keep current debuff potency as is. They have a purpose and they serve it.

[IHaveHugeNick]

Stop your trolling with putting words in my mouth I haven't said....

Maybe you should try to read what people write

Maybe you should read what YOU write in the post i responded to , unless you have trouble understanding what you have produced.

No.... Disabling someone for 30 seconds is far, far, far too long,

Since when debuffing equals disabling. Learn the difference. There are no debuffs in this game that "disable" your character. You get disabled if car hits you and you lose a leg. Debuffs lower your combat capabilities, some more, some less, and yes its absolutely fair game to lower anyone's combat capabilities for 30 seconds.

You also conveniently forget that said snare can be refreshed indefinitely every 5 seconds or so...

On what planet? Professions who rely on debuffing need to land up to half a dozen of nanos on some targets, all going through individual def checks, plenty of them going through additional immunity checks, and out of that many being removable, so no, you most certainly cannot refresh snare or any debuff on a target every 5 seconds.

Even taken to the extreme where everyone would get tools that could remove roots/snares immediately and also indefinitely by clicking on whatever.

Which just happen to describe current situation.

but the way they currently work is completely out of wack imo.

What is out of wack? PvM durations? As is debuff ever lasts on you for entire duration, you either go splat or you get to remove it with plenty of available tools.

I've never had any debuff with a PvM duration run out on its own on me, ever.

Out of wack are: having to go through nr checks, immunity checks from perks items and armor while under fire while trying to debuff someone only to see it either removed in an insta with 5 thousand various perk actions or items.

Or see your debuff have no effect at all, unless you oland your entire arsenal of nanos, going through the same scenario all over again, and meanwhile watching how guy with a big gun nearby chops 1/3 of someone's HP every few seconds while only going through one def check and sometimes not at all.

==========

Its what Crattey said - building the wall with bigger and better spammable debuffs on one side of the specturm and the wall of resistances on every 2nd item and 5 thousands items that allow to remove them is silly and leads nowhere.

The whole thing needs to be:

a) reworked with system of local cooldowns on both debuffs and items/perk actions clearing them
b) immunities should go and burn in the fire
c) get rid of generic tools to remove everything
d) adjust the def checks so stuff actually lands
e) THEN you can severely cut the durations on just about every debuff there is, and

-5-10 seconds on the heavy stuff like NSD
- 5 seconds on roots
- 20 seconds on snares
- 30-1minute on init debuffs depending on a caliber
- 30s on drains

All that should be on local cooldowns, with removers distributed amongst selected professions, for example i see no reason why anyone ranged should be able to remove roots or snares, they already have the advantage.

[IHaveHugeNick]

Debuffs are fine (with obvious exceptions ...). Duration and removability are the problems.

Get rid of GTH, BR, RI, and ALL NEMESIS NANOS. Create a few generic debuffs that are low-moderate in effect with corresponding recharges and let player skill determine how they will be used.

Keep current debuff potency as is. They have a purpose and they serve it.

I don't really get the whole concept of researching whether debuffs enhance someone's experience.

How is any hostile action supposed to do that?

Can we remove entire clan faction from game, in fact remove all other people except me, because they don't enhance my pvp experience.

[Armus]

Step throug whompas and BOOM, our AR is down 1400 pts, you're blinded, rooted, stunned, snared, init debuffed and probably snared as well.

All inside 5 seconds. Or however long it may take before you die.


This is team/mass pvp they say. So.. Where are all the team defences for these things?

Debuffs like gth, ri, trader drains, blinds etc are extremely powerful and literally define BS today.
So again where are the defences against these things?

And no, we can't all roll enfs to get enough NR to even begin to resist stuff.

[Seventh]

Funny, how much QQ you can get into a single tread.

Step throug whompas and BOOM, our AR is down 1400 pts, you're blinded, rooted, stunned, snared, init debuffed and probably snared as well.

All inside 5 seconds. Or however long it may take before you die.

So let me understand. Are you saying that a single player cast all of that on you within 5 sec? No? Ahh so you have a 5 players (according to number of debuffs) attacking you and expecting to live, and to nerf them if you don't? QQ

This is team/mass pvp they say. So.. Where are all the team defences for these things?

In the place right next to team defense against 5 solds FA/bursting you in same time.

Debuffs like gth, ri, trader drains, blinds etc are extremely powerful and literally define BS today.
So again where are the defences against these things?

Some specific debuffs are too powerful- GTH or BR for example. Still they only need to be adjusted, not removed. As for defense vs the rest- last time i checked FA+burst, each hitting for a cap on a lower hp prof, and recircling within seconds, are just as powerful. The defense vs debuffs is in the same place as defense vs those.

[howlin]

Step throug whompas and BOOM, you get hit by 2 AS 1 burst and 1 full auto.
On top of that some NT manages to sneak in a triple in the dmg log even thou you died a long time ago.
All inside 2 seconds.
Attacks such as aimed shot, full auto, burst and LE nukes are extremely powerful and literally define BS today.
Yeah if you are lucky and there is a engie in BS and if he is not already teamed than you can get blockers
..which are useless again since 6 soldiers that are waiting as you step trough whompas eat those blockers in 2 seconds.

[Armus]

Step throug whompas and BOOM, you get hit by 2 AS 1 burst and 1 full auto.
On top of that some NT manages to sneak in a triple in the dmg log even thou you died a long time ago.
All inside 2 seconds.
Attacks such as aimed shot, full auto, burst and LE nukes are extremely powerful and literally define BS today.
Yeah if you are lucky and there is a engie in BS and if he is not already teamed than you can get blockers
..which are useless again since 6 soldiers that are waiting as you step trough whompas eat those blockers in 2 seconds.

You missed the point. Defenses against physical attacks are relativelive much better from the start. And many profs have great ways of negating or evading these attacks. You mentioned team blockers. Then there is the 400 aad aura as well as a big pile of other nanos that help your def.

There are many items that will let pretty much any prof evade most attacks even from high ar profs. But there is literally no items that add nr. Add to that how some symb sets have almost no NR and you get the picture. There is just very little defence against these debuffs.

And as we are in a team pvp environment there should be similar adds to NR as there has been to other defences.

[Seventh]

But there is literally no items that add nr.

Look here.

It is another thing that many choose to not to use them but still have nr- like the infused viral compiler that adds 70 nr, that i didn't see in almost any sold's sig- even that most of them go emo about how they can't get nr.

[crattey]

...No.... Disabling someone for 30 seconds is far, far, far too long, which is exactly what a root/snare means to some professions.

Man, I love how professionals have this incredible knowledge about the game mechanics.

If a root ever lasts 30 seconds on you: stop PvPing. Any and root cast on you can be removed in seconds. If you don't feel like using the tools that can do this, you're not a PvPer.

Even taken to the extreme where everyone would get tools that could remove roots/snares immediately and also indefinitely by clicking on whatever..

Are you kidding? That 'extreme' has been here for years. Many professions can remove roots instantly. Every single profession can remove them in a few seconds. Indefinitely.


This thread started out making some sense, untill, ironically, it descended into yet another ridiculous whine thread.

Ironically, it's a professional that's the worst. You either need to learn how to play the game, or stop trolling. Either way, you really should give up you position. You're not helping. You're just making an arse of yourself by making these ridiculous claim.

[Juzzif]

I have been reading through this post and my question right now is: Ihavehugenick what profession(s) are you playing?

On topic though I couldn't agree more, the deal here is that this is a MMORPG. Multiplayer game as someone earlier pointed out.. And the deal with the debuffs in AO, is that some professions render other professions completely useless after casting 1/2/3 debuffs on them.. Varying what this may be....

Init debuffs for an MA if you can't remove it that basically means you cannot kill anyone as long as it's duration, and you can't heal efficiently.. Meaning you will just be useless and die. The same goes for other professions... Nearly all of us has some high requirement nano's that we are dependant in one way or another.. If 1 drain lands these won't be possible to use at all...

Ihavehugenick I think you sort of misunderstood all of this.. This is not for you or for me, this is for the sake of having fun while experiencing pvp... If you ask anyone on the receiving end of these... They will tell you it's horrible and not at all fun.

Find 1 successful online multiplayer game where they have this sort of debuff oriented classes which can render any opposing player useless within seconds.

I dearly support this thread for the sake of Anarchy Online's future.. My friends and people I play with, normally if I ask them if they want to hang out and do some BS; the usual response is "Any MPs traders or Nts queueing atm?" If the answere is yes to that, normally their reply will be that they can't be arsed to do it then..

It's so easy for these sort of debuffing professions to become a severe pain in the butt.. And some are extensively good at doing so, which makes pvp gameplay for the rest of the 80% or more so, playing very agonizing.

I recently came back to AO from playing WoW, I've been playing WoW on-off for 3-4 years now, but I always long back to AO and I always end up re-subscribing. Becuase I really love certain aspects of AO pvp, it's unique and fantastic... Then other sides like these debuffs completely ruin it, I see this balancing act as something great.. If this is not wasted, and some Funcom staff actually takes the time to listen to it's players we could see a ressurection of AO I belive.

Don't fight this post, it's potential to revive AO is great

[Wrangeline]

Any and root cast on you can be removed in seconds. If you don't feel like using the tools that can do this, you're not a PvPer.

I'm sorry but I'm really not a fan of this kind of attitude. It's design like this that makes AO a niche game with a dwindling population. A lot of things in AO is designed in such a way that things become more frustrating and boring than it needs to be.

If we want AO to be more popular, we need to support a design that the AVERAGE player can get into.

Having to farm a stock of items (for example) just to make roots and debuffs "reasonable" is not good design. It's a design that alienates a lot of people and promotes pointless gameplay (people making level 60 alts just to farm bosses in ToTW for rods and such).

This game would have a much brighter future if tools such as roots and snares and debuffs were designed in such a way that they were reasonable with the tools professions naturally have at their disposal and with tools that can be bought in shops.

I can only imagine how sucky it would be to play WoW as a warrior vs a mage with a system that AO has. Instead of the mages freeze-root lasting for just a few seconds each time with a reasonable cooldown, it would last for 2 minutes and be spammable. So now you as a warrior would have to go find lots of crap to use just to get out of those freezes. AO's system is badly designed. WoW's system is not.

This game is supposed to be fun for everyone. Hardcore PvPers and everyone else as well. Defending a crappy design in AO that ruins a lot of potential for a lot of people to join in and have fun is just saying "Hey look at me im a pvper" and is something that FC shouldn't listen to if they want this game to be as good as it can be. Thankfully they seem to be leaning on the side of reason atm by reducing durations and such for hostile effects in PVP.

[crattey]

I'm sorry but I'm really not a fan of this kind of attitude. It's design like this that makes AO a niche game with a dwindling population. A lot of things in AO is designed in such a way that things become more frustrating and boring than it needs to be.

Never said I liked it. I don't. This game, with retarded duration, spammable roots versus 100% immunities and ****loads of ways to remove them, some of which all professions have acces to (except doctors, apparantly) on the other hand.. it's silly.[quote]

I can only imagine how sucky it would be to play WoW as a warrior vs a mage with a system that AO has. Instead of the mages freeze-root lasting for just a few seconds each time with a reasonable cooldown, it would last for 2 minutes and be spammable. So now you as a warrior would have to go find lots of crap to use just to get out of those freezes. AO's system is badly designed. WoW's system is not.

Yet you forget one thing.. In this comparison, warriors would have 100% immuntiy to freeze effects or instant removers, and they'd have MR and a perk alpha that would instantly kill the mage.

Apart from a trader's GTH, there's no imbalance around CC in this game. Hell, I think even the now removed stun procs and a trader's GTH are pretty low on the scale in terms of imbalance.

When compared to the ridiculous alpha capabilities in this game, CC is weak as hell. It's not crippling, it's annoying. It's frustrating, but it's not OP. It's not meant to make you get all warm and fuzzy inside, however.

And never, ever, is there an excuse for being rooted/snared for more than a few seconds. If you stand around long enough to 'get a cup of coffee', you need to delete your character and play an easier to manage game, like Pacman. If popping two stims is too much for you, why on earth are you even playing this game?

Does CC need to be looked at? Yeah. It's currently horribly ill-designed. nowhere near as ill-designed however, as those countless times you get steamrolled in two seconds flat without there being dick at all you can do about it.

Think standing there using Free Movements stims is frustrating? Try coming out of decom, having to recast and rebuff yourself and your pets after some one-hit-wonder MR keeper/enfo, fresh from ely kites, in ****ty gear, has killed you in 2 seconds.



Here's a list of professions who can't whine about roots or snares:
- All melee professions
- All ranged professions

Melee professions can all get acces to full or near full immunity. They can all get acces to removers. They all have access to generic removal tools.
And yes, keepers/shades, you are making a choice not to perk SD. You choose for evades/heals to outlast. You choose for AR to get a better alpha. You choose for SD if you really feel this bad about roots/snares.

Ranged professions can't complaing either. You're either rooted and still in range of the person who rooted you, so hardly helpless. Alternatively, the rooter is not in range, and you can just pop free movement stims to get out of it in a few seconds.