Debuffs: Do they enhance your pvp experiance?

[Ashes2Ashes]

Debuffs are fine and dandy in pvm, but when it comes to pvp do they really enhance your pvp experiance, or turn you off?
Serious questions here.

If all things were balanced there would be no need for debuffs right?

Do you sometimes stand at BS terminal, look to see who is around. Notice some of the nastier debuffing professions about, then change your mind about signing up and find something else to do instead?

For those debuffing professions, I'm sure they don't mind too much. Afterall they rolled the debuffing profession to begin with knowing basically what it was all about. But what about those professions that don't debuff? How fun is the game for them?

I'm of the opinion that less debuffs make for better gaming experiance.



So what to do?
Reduce/eliminate the ammount of de-buffs in game that effect players. The ones that do effect players have thier effectivness work at 25% of normal capacity. The professions that have to use de-buffs as a crutch to work properly, give them a better updated toolset so they don't need that crutch in pvp. Problem solved, people are happy, and we can go on our merry way.


I have never played any other game that had soo many de-buffs in game. It's going on 4 years now that I have played AO. I really think people would be happier with less de-buffs flying around. Just like people will be happier with Aim shot capable weapons in less hands.

So in closing, maybe rethink the direction of debuffs in game.

Duration: Reduce the duration, I see your going in this direction already. That is great move.
Ammount: Reduce the ammount of debuffs in game, and boost the professions loosing them to make up for the loss.
Severity: Reduce the severity of the debuffs greatly towards players.


Balancing professions, toolsets, perks, and nano's are being worked on right now. Now is the time to express your feelings/opinion on your gaming experiance in AO. I feel we can have a great game, with much of the debuffs in game eliminated/reduced in power/scope.

Like I said, if the game truly gets balanced, you don't need debuffs. Let alone debuffs that are in game that are so huge, they cannot be overcome, and just shut your profession down. I don't think shutting anyones toolset down is a good gaming experiance.

Just take a look at how much some of these debuffs, debuff for, or how much you can stack on top of each other. It's a little bit rediculous to say the least.

[crattey]

Well, the problem with AO is that this game is designed for PvM and this designs is massively outdated. There's no more CC here than in most other games. It's just horribly implemented.

CC in PvP is currently in sad, near useless state, because the vast majority of CC is designed for PvM, and even there it's mostly useless, bar the occasional situation.


Roots and snares should be easy to land and have a short duration. Some professions should have break-out tools, but on a slightly longer cooldown. The way it currently is: roots and snares have way too long duration. Too many professions are completely immune, in fact, immunity is silly to begin with. There are way too many generic removal tools without a proper lockout timer.

Blinds are a very odd thing.. AAO debuffs is one thing, but black screens?

Init debuffs should be easy to land, have a relatively short duration and a lockout, rather than being spammable and long duration, and again, in some cases impossible to land.

GTH needs to be killed with fire. This is really one of the clearest signal ever given by the dev team (whoever it was that came up with this) that they are completely and utterly clueless in regards to PvP.

NSD and similar nanoskill debuffs: same thing. Should have a short duration, longer cooldown (not spammable.) Not removable. Easy to land.

Trader debuffs are over the top, especially at lower TL. Not to mention their duration is too long, and again, they are spammable. Their debuffing effect should be smaller and shorter in duration. The trader part of the deal isn't too much per se.

CC should be used strategically. It should not be a case of spamming to death or not bothering due to 100% immunity.

[Ashes2Ashes]

The scope, and magnitude of some debuffs in game warrant OP toolsets/items to compensate. If you reduce/eliminate the debuffs, boost the professions that had to rely on the debuffs to be competitive in pvp. Then rebalancing becomes a hell of alot easier of a task.

When you can cripple a profession to the point where they can do nothing to the debuffer in return, we have a rock paper scissors scenario. There is too much of that currently in game. It's not productive, or fun to be on the recieving end of it. People will just go and find something else better to do.

If you are going to rebalance the game. Please take a long look at the debuffs in game, and realize how much of an impact they have in the whole balancing scheme of things. Adding more powerful debuffs, unbreakable, uber ect... debuffs do not make a game fun. Quite the contrary, so yes, please bring out the big ole' nerfstick of doom, and whack away alot of these debuffs in game.

Severely cut down the power, and scope of these all. Do boost professions that need it from loosing thier debuff crutch.

[Gridpain]

If all things were balanced there would be no need for debuffs right?

there would be no need for buffs either...

let's have a game with ranged weapons only, with same damage and specials...

well, what I like in AO is the diversity... some prof are offense oriented, some are defense oriended, some are healing oriended, some are debuff oriented .. some are oriented toward reclaim

It would be very sad if debuffs were removed from the game... why not remove .. healing ? defense check ?

I m all for reducing the duration (and possibly some effects on some debuffs) though, you have my vote (and FC one it seems) on this one.

[Ashes2Ashes]

Well, the problem with AO is that this game is designed for PvM and this designs is massively outdated. There's no more CC here than in most other games. It's just horribly implemented.

CC in PvP is currently in sad, near useless state, because the vast majority of CC is designed for PvM, and even there it's mostly useless, bar the occasional situation.


Roots and snares should be easy to land and have a short duration. Some professions should have break-out tools, but on a slightly longer cooldown. The way it currently is: roots and snares have way too long duration. Too many professions are completely immune, in fact, immunity is silly to begin with. There are way too many generic removal tools without a proper lockout timer.

Blinds are a very odd thing.. AAO debuffs is one thing, but black screens?

Init debuffs should be easy to land, have a relatively short duration and a lockout, rather than being spammable and long duration, and again, in some cases impossible to land.

GTH needs to be killed with fire. This is really one of the clearest signal ever given by the dev team (whoever it was that came up with this) that they are completely and utterly clueless in regards to PvP.

NSD and similar nanoskill debuffs: same thing. Should have a short duration, longer cooldown (not spammable.) Not removable. Easy to land.


CC should be used strategically. It should not be a case of spamming to death or not bothering due to 100% immunity.

I totally agree here. Even myself playing some of the professions that have immunity in one form or another, I still agree. I would give up my immunity if things were toned down to a decent level. I think every profession can still keep thier unique feel, just when it comes to pvp, things need to be toned down ALOT. Even tho I joke around in some other threads about traders, it's not that i hate them, it's that I hate thier debuffs.

It really is a bit too much. What I propose is simply to reduce the power and scope of thiers, and other professions debuffs. But also compensate them by boosting thier toolset so they can perfom just as effectively as if thier debuffs were 100%. Give them more AR, Def, NR, whatever, but please for the love of baby Jesus, just tone down those debuffs.

[Ashes2Ashes]

there would be no need for buffs either...

let's have a game with ranged weapons only, with same damage and specials...

well, what I like in AO is the diversity... some prof are offense oriented, some are defense oriended, some are healing oriended, some are debuff oriented .. some are oriented toward reclaim

It would be very sad if debuffs were removed from the game... why not remove .. healing ? defense check ?

I m all for reducing the duration (and possibly some effects on some debuffs) though, you have my vote (and FC one it seems) on this one.

Ya, that did come off kinda durr from my end. My bad for wording it that way. It's just that it would be alot better imo, if there were less debuffs, that were less powerful than they are now.

Also I would love it if the person who debuffed you, once they die, thier debuff on you would terminate.

[crattey]

I totally agree here. Even myself playing some of the professions that have immunity in one form or another, I still agree. I would give up my immunity if things were toned down to a decent level. I think every profession can still keep thier unique feel, just when it comes to pvp, things need to be toned down ALOT. Even tho I joke around in some other threads about traders, it's not that i hate them, it's that I hate thier debuffs.

It really is a bit too much. What I propose is simply to reduce the power and scope of thiers, and other professions debuffs. But also compensate them by boosting thier toolset so they can perfom just as effectively as if thier debuffs were 100%. Give them more AR, Def, NR, whatever, but please for the love of baby Jesus, just tone down those debuffs.

Common mistake however, when looking at GTH, is similar to the one that always made in regards to stun procs: yes, they are OP, but not nearly as OP as the alphas people are tossing around these days.

Yes, it feels crap when you get crippled by a debuff and stand around being slowly killed. However, try and keep in mind that the people using these debuffs are often instasplatted by the very professions bitching and whining on these forums. The end result is the same: you get killed without a chance in hell of doing anything about it.

Traders are currently on one end, and crats used to be, where they completely cripple someone and kill them slowly.

NTs, enforcers, keepers, soldiers, shades, advies, MAs and agents are on the other. While some manage it more often and against more professions than others, at some point they will all kill someone in a matter of seconds without there being a chance in hell for their target to do anything about it.

Blaming CC alone for ruining PvP is a tad shortsighted.

[Ashes2Ashes]

snip... Blaming CC alone for ruining PvP is a tad shortsighted.

I totally have no beefs with CC. From what I have read so far, cooldowns, shorter duration I'm fine with that. I play professions with CC abilities usually (my preferance).

What I do notice is, when I get on a BS round that (sorry to have to say this) has no NT's, Traders, I wind up having alot more fun. I can deal with all those other OP professions on BS. They don't bother me 1/10th when say those ^^ other 2 professions are present. Am I gimp? Do I need to l2play? Heh, so be it, I just know whats fun, and whats not fun, for me at least.

Ya, I know it's kinda messed up to say remove / reduce debuffs. When there are professions built around that very thing. But meh, why can't those debuffs be toned down, and in turn boost that profession so they don't need to rely on those debuffs so much to /win.

[Ciex]

Debuffs dont matter, it duration and (in)ability to remove them. I was shocked when ive discovered than MP can debuff me with a nano skill debuff that:
1. Cannot be removed.
2. Doesnt disappear with battlestation invite.
It also wasnt funny to discover that a trader can bring you, especially at lower lvls, to NEGATIVE AR values and you cannot remove those drains while under attack. WTF are you supposed to do when your ar is below 0 and you cannot get rid of it?

[Ashes2Ashes]

Another by-product of professions with huge debuffs. They are usually the first to get targeted / attacked by anyone else. I know when I see a Doc / Trader / NT they are usually on the top of my to kill /assist to kill list. If debuffs were toned down, those professions might live a tad longer and not get called right off the bat.

Also another by-product, they might also have a more robust static AR/Def rating, since they dont need to depend on thier debuffs so much to kill someone. Just a thought, I don't wanna see someone nerfed into oblivion. Would rather see a fair exchange of take away / boost to those professions.

[keitelo]

WTF are you supposed to do when your ar is below 0 and you cannot get rid of it?

You cancel your accounts, have fun FC...

I tried some other mmo with a good pvp balance and after AO it was a blast, knowing i was playing a shade just after LE.

Today i came back with the 30 days offers but my accounts are canceled already.FC will never learn and they dropped AO a long time ago.AoC is a semi failure(total?) and i won't cry for them.


For AO when you look at what they introduced in game for pvp and how they let some HUGE flaws since for ever you can't help but have two insights on how FC consider AO:

1-they don't have the slightest clue about their own game.
2- they just don't give a flying f.... about it and what their customers ask for.

A few years later AO is almost deserted.The balancing/engine seems like a joke to me and FC clearly doesn't plan on making an AO revival.Sorry but when i saw the screens of the new instance(collector), what a f...ing joke...My eight years old cousin could design that stuff...

[Ashes2Ashes]

Nemesis nano's...

I would like to see these totally scrapped. The way they were implemented, some were highly useful, others were total junk. If they don't get scrapped, then please look into redoing all of them in a more balanced, and less drastic (as some of them are really OP compared to others) debuff.

After reading the following: On Borrow Reflect

Likely the same as with GTH..with some differences.

Borrow Reflect is likely to have it's severity on the target reduced...while likely offering the Trader the same benefit (up to a tbd capped value BELOW 100%). This is likely to function on more professions than just soldier (to broaden the usefulness of the nano...this is likely going to be the path for ALL nemesis nanos...usefull but not an overpowering aspect of an encounter...and not only situationally usefull on one profession.). Cooldown (ie: cant be cast again for 35 seconds) will likely be added to this to counter the "spam" factor and of course a decrease in duration to be consistent with all other pvp debuff effects.

Again..basic intentions but no firm detail right now.

Please Means, don't open this up to effect everyone with reflects running. Like I mentioned earlier in this post. Some Nemesis nano's are OP, while some are just garbage... Why move in this direction? It's not fun to be on the recieving end of alot of these debuffs. If anything, it turns people away from pvp, rather than draw them to it. From alot of people I have talked to in game. The nemesis nano's weren't well received. But now to expand on them, and allow more people to be effected by them? Please no. At least toss a poll up, ask the players, let them voice thier concerns.

[Mekh]

Rubika-1...

I agree 100% with each every point you've made so far in this thread regarding debuffs...
While those professions to a large extent currently need them, they are a total turn-off for me when I go to BS.

Being disabled/nerfed into more or less complete uselessness is simply NOT fun...

As you already said, being at the receiving end of tonnes of damage is for some reason more fun...

Why?
Because you can still use your own weapons/defenses... Essentially, you can still play as opposed to being left there waiting to get killed, so you can get back to having some active fun playing.


Should debuffs and CC be removed.... No, I do NOT think so, but their effect should get severely toned down as well as their duration.
Of course that would the professions currently relying on them as they are now, should get compensations for the nerf of said tools.

I too agree this would enhance overall PvP experience for most everyone.

[crattey]

I totally have no beefs with CC. From what I have read so far, cooldowns, shorter duration I'm fine with that. I play professions with CC abilities usually (my preferance).

What I do notice is, when I get on a BS round that (sorry to have to say this) has no NT's, Traders, I wind up having alot more fun. I can deal with all those other OP professions on BS. They don't bother me 1/10th when say those ^^ other 2 professions are present. Am I gimp? Do I need to l2play? Heh, so be it, I just know whats fun, and whats not fun, for me at least.

Ya, I know it's kinda messed up to say remove / reduce debuffs. When there are professions built around that very thing. But meh, why can't those debuffs be toned down, and in turn boost that profession so they don't need to rely on those debuffs so much to /win.

In your sig it says engineer. One of, along with soldiers, the professions who is basically a walking CC-totem with incredible powerful defenses versus specials/perks. It's no wonder you have a hard time seeing the other side of the medal.

....WTF are you supposed to do when your ar is below 0 and you cannot get rid of it?

WTF are you supposed to do when there are multiple professions who can kill you within a second or two?

There's no difference between completely crippling someone and then killing them, and killing someone the second you see him. Ones takes a bit longer than the other, is all. Stop making CC out to be less balanced than alphas.

[Mekh]

...snip...
Stop making CC out to be less balanced than alphas.

No one here has said otherwise I think...
What is said is that for whatever reason they take the fun out of PvP.

That is the important part of this discussion.... That... and what could be done about it, without removing the diversity and without nerfing said professions that currently rely on these tools.

[Mekh]

....snip....
There's no difference between completely crippling someone and then killing them, and killing someone the second you see him. Ones takes a bit longer than the other, is all. Stop making CC out to be less balanced than alphas.

There's actually a huge difference....

One of those scenarios is a LOT more frustrating than the other, because of time invloved, where you in some cases might as well go for some coffee rather than standing there useless watching your HP move down unable to do anything but watch it happen.

Frustration and inability to do anything about it for a prolonged period of time, makes a HUGE difference in frustration levels.

[Ashes2Ashes]

Rubika-1...

I agree 100% with each every point you've made so far in this thread regarding debuffs...
While those professions to a large extent currently need them, they are a total turn-off for me when I go to BS.

Being disabled/nerfed into more or less complete uselessness is simply NOT fun...

As you already said, being at the receiving end of tonnes of damage is for some reason more fun...

Why?
Because you can still use your own weapons/defenses... Essentially, you can still play as opposed to being left there waiting to get killed, so you can get back to having some active fun playing.


Should debuffs and CC be removed.... No, I do NOT think so, but their effect should get severely toned down as well as their duration.
Of course that would the professions currently relying on them as they are now, should get compensations for the nerf of said tools.

I too agree this would enhance overall PvP experience for most everyone.

Yes, this is 100% what I am talking about. Bolded part especially. Glad I am not alone in this cheers

[Ashes2Ashes]

In your sig it says engineer. One of, along with soldiers, the professions who is basically a walking CC-totem with incredible powerful defenses versus specials/perks. It's no wonder you have a hard time seeing the other side of the medal.

Actually my engineer has never once participated in pvp. 0 duel, 0 solo, 0 team.

What I do play is MA, Crat, Agent, Fixer in pvp.

[Wrangeline]

I just wanted to chime in real quick and say that I agree with the general sentiment that debuffs play too big a role in AO PvP. I have been whining about this and suggesting changes for years.

We shall see what changes are made to these things in the balance patches.

AO has always been my favorite MMO. Lately however, I'm thinking that I had more fun PvP'ing in WoW with my druid than I currently have in AO. PvP in AO is currently a lot more "lame" than PvP was in WoW and I feel PvP in WoW was better balanced than it currently is in AO.

I want special abilities and debuffs and such to be good tools but not so strong that they can instantly tip the scale of a fight into your or your enemies favor. I want to use timing and the right tools at the right time instead of spamming all of them and then either completely owning the target or still not having a chance at all. In WoW I had the sense that any fight was never over until it was actually over. If you played well you could manage to turn most scenarios around and your target could manage to win if you made a mistake or two even though you were close to winning. In AO it's more rock paper scissor than that.

/fingers crossed for balance patches.

It's also not fun to constantly have 50% of your gameplay taken away from you by defense-removers, perma rooters, perma-stunners, perma-blinders and so on and so on.

[Ashes2Ashes]

I just wanted to chime in real quick and say that I agree with the general sentiment that debuffs play too big a role in AO PvP. I have been whining about this and suggesting changes for years.

We shall see what changes are made to these things in the balance patches.

AO has always been my favorite MMO. Lately however, I'm thinking that I had more fun PvP'ing in WoW with my druid than I currently have in AO. PvP in AO is currently a lot more "lame" than PvP was in WoW and I feel PvP in WoW was better balanced than it currently is in AO.

I want special abilities and debuffs and such to be good tools but not so strong that they can instantly tip the scale of a fight into your or your enemies favor. I want to use timing and the right tools at the right time instead of spamming all of them and then either completely owning the target or still not having a chance at all. In WoW I had the sense that any fight was never over until it was actually over. If you played well you could manage to turn most scenarios around and your target could manage to win if you made a mistake or two even though you were close to winning. In AO it's more rock paper scissor than that.

/fingers crossed for balance patches.

Really nice post there Wrangeline cheers /thumbs up