What makes Enforcers OP in your opinion?

[X-Styx-X]

i dotn see how u can argue with me about this... i posted exact numbers to u and u still dotn agree.
what 13% reflect u mean the reflect graft? yeah ofcourse everyone has access to blitz a reflect graft.

if u calc that it reduces 13% of the dmg received from NT u do the match about the numbers from what i posted and see if u still cant get a enf down with ony IU spam.
as i said aswell in my calculations i didnt add any add% nano dmg int he calcs aswell so if u wanna be anal about it u can start by adding ur 40% + to the dmg first and then reduct 13% of the result.

the healdelta i posted is the one i have and as i posted u can add 44 from a 300 healdelta feet implant if u choose to loose evades / agility etc to go for a healdelta imp.
and i doubt ur shade has same healdelta as my enf does.
if they do... grats to shades.

also at the end of the calculation u can add perks etc to the NT dmg to further increase the gap.



and here u even admit that ur def is "retarded" nerfed.
so as i said work on ur char.

stop spewing crap and go work on ur char.

exact numbers ? HAHAH wake up dude and scroll up

u posted FALSE stuff dude , dmg done in NBG isn't the dmg done calced on the HP of the NT .
stuff like AS/FA/SA CAPS on our nanopool , if not id make a 2K hp nt and see my 600ish caps removed to my 54k nano , hahah ? sounds fun immortality
And about nano dmg ... bot confinement lowers my dmg by 20% again and lose even more DPM cuz of enf init debuff perks , groin kick and so on. and i'm pretty sure a enf isn't gonna just sit there.

u forgot to add all the heals a enf has to prove ur point ? and still failed
Enf pops some heal perks and he is 100% hp , and all nukes and perks a nt used are out healed
i know what BR heals , dont talk ****

cuz i have 2.8k + MC i have crap evades ? lol wtf is that comming from ?
i said my setup is retarded in MC setup , why would i fight a enf in that ? its to kill traders.
welcome to the world of PVP , nt's can swap huds too , i have 5 different setups
Yet u still can't alpha a nt with almost 10k less nano then me, this tread is about ENDGAME enfs being OP, u dont seem Endgame to me u should work on ur setup , i have one of the highest AR on both servers i guess (3.1K) my setup is perfected into what i wanted it to be.
Dont start talking trash when all u say isn't true

ask ANY nt u want
all ur numbers are based on fiction , so far i seen when a NT goes into nbg mode his nano becomes his shield and works like this:
45K nano will act same as a enf beating up a 45k hp MOB , no pvp caps or caps are calced on the max nano or something, u calced all ur numbers vs the hp of a pvp player.

now for the 2nd time i showed u how badly wrong u are
stop with those dumb comments or take it to PM's and keep this tread clean
This isn't another Nerf NT PLOX tread

( for the rest , sry if i'm defending my point of view to strongly i have a temper at times ;p )

[Surm]

Other than the already mentioned 1he/1hb combo which with the extra stuns and perks is OP, I dont really see much to complain about TL7 enforcers. Having played the majority of professions in AO at that level, enfs really are the least nerf-worthy as a perfect example of a "balanced" profession (as close as you can get to it in AO). Especially with the looming rage nerf around the corner. For now, as a 2he enf myself, i like em just the way they are. Call me biased if you will, i probably am at least to an extent, but having experienced the broader spectrum of AO, enforcers are just lovable :P

[erozc]

ok in full alphas and with QL 300 city etc i got 256 healdelta sitting.
over 20 seconds that is 2560 hp healed.
u can add 44 to that since i dont have a HD feet imp bringing it up to 300 every 2 secs sitting for a total of 3000 health / 20 secs.
add mongo to that and we have 510 tick over 22.5 secs resulting in about 5000 heal over 20 secs.
that is a total of 8000 heal over 20 secs.
...

and remember.. this is sitting down... thus cant do anything to ur NT during that time.

...

add a RRFE to the picture and u will take alot less dmg and so will i but im still not even close to outhealing ur dmg and u are nowhere nere to be left w/o nano after my alpha.

Your numbers are wrong. 300 heal delta standing means 6000 heal in 20 seconds sitting down - you know the tick is doubled when sitting down, right? So, with Mongo added you have 11k heal per 20 secs. Then, you have bio cocoon which buys you some time, bio regrowth that should help out and even bio rejuvenation. A battle prepared treatment kit gives another 1k per 20 seconds give or take a bit depending on skill lock.

If you do manage to alpha the NT while NBG is up, he'll be affected by your stuns and init debuffs as well. Oh, I also forgot tools that, although situational, can help you such as the enforcer booster absorb.

If IU spam alone does 23k per 20 seconds pre-reflects (maybe you have RRFE too, at least you will 13+2=15%), you should take less than 20K damage, of which you will heal up 11k with just mongo and HD. I guess doubles could technically do more damage vs. RRFE at least, but then you'd need to be CB'd or would have a real chance at resisting them.

How much HP did you have again? Yay for paper PvP

[Moonbolt]

as i said.. 300 healdelta WHILE sitting not standing.
the healdelta isnt doubled by sitting down, its doubled before Healdelta modifiers.
add the nano dmg adds from NT and perks if u gonna calc with perks on an enf.
bio regrowth is a 15k HoT over 30 seconds. with a 5 minute recharge.
even fappers agree with me that ur facts on NTs is wrong X-styx-X and he is an endgame setup NT.
tht 300 HD is in a HD setup with the healdelta feet implant aswell that i doubt many endgame enfs use due to the fact that the feet symb is jsut to good to swap out for a HD imp.

as i said... while SITTING down when i have full alphas i have a HD tick of 256hp / tick.

if u feel like doin the math on it do a full calc on all DD perks, Nano dmg modifiers, reflects, healperks etc.
it wouldnt make any difference. NTs does OD enforcers healing and frankly the NT class would be broken if they didnt.
stop being a retard and only add healing perks on the enf side of the calc when ur not calculating NT DD perks and add dmg % on nukes.
there is a reason NTs (atleast good ones) use IU and not doubles on enfs... it does more dmg then doubles even when the enf has RRFE.

seriusly if u keep calling my logic flawed and claiming that u are right just makes u look like an idiot to those that actually knows how this game works.
its very simple. go into a BS. try to get an enf down in health... if u dont succeed id petition that enf as a sploiter - or i would realise i prolly doesnt know how to play an NT and go play some easier game like solitaire or something

[Autofil]

i had 45k when i was lvl 215 running around in 240 symbs

i'll PM u a link to my setup

Ok I took my time to sit down and look at it. Your complete setup from items + tower will give you about 4117 more Nanopool than I have in my setup, with the loss of about 90 static def and 42 NR.

So I'd realy like to see where the rest of the nano came from?
The numbers dont seem to add up.

[Gatester]

Don't guess anything because your guessings on MA's stats are ridicilous enough. I don't need to see your toons in order to know what is your knowledge about certain profession.

You have MA, but you enlighten us with your knowledge of "talking regularly" to pvp MA.

Post some stats of your own then, if you are such an expert on your profession? Since I didn't even say static AR or NR you will have a hard time posting a "weaker" setup than I stated so I am greatly anticipating this.




Now back on topic with the QQ fest MA's hopefully delt with. We can get down to some specific questions.

1) Why shouldn't enforcers have the highest Nano Resist?

2) If you take away enforcer nano resist, what defenses do you think they would be left with? How do these defenses compare to other professions (more Indepth question but fair if you are willing to answer)?

3) If an enforcer does not alpha you, what means does he use or should he have to kill you?

4) Why shouldn't an enforcer have higher runspeed as a melee profession than a pet, ranged, or support profession?

5) Why shouldn't enforcers have lots of stuns or lots of init debuffing?

6) Is the worst part of the 1he/1hb alpha the 3x 3500ish pvp perks, the snare/init debuff perk, the 1 additional stun, the def checks, or the SA? I'd like to know exactly which part people have the most trouble with and not just saying all of it together is OP.

7) If you feel enforcers have too much AAD then should enforcers be the only profession prevented from focusing on a defensive setup? Remeber that our defensive focused setup has lower def than every profession asside from doctors I believe and is also greatly utilized in PVM.

Choose whichever you want to answer, focus on the ones most important to you.

Key points to remember, Rage is getting a lockout but the specifics are unknown, the defense checks on 1hb perks are being "fixed" to 100%, stuns are being reduced in effectiveness, runspeed and kiting will likely be improved for enforcers, and I believe FC is making our high max health useful rather than a handicap in the future.

For some stats consider an enforcer to have 3.3k NR, 2.7k def including AAD and 3.350 AR procced on a more defensive setup. On an offensive setup 3.3k NR, 2.550 def including AAD and 3.5k AR procced. The stats could be off a bit but we aren't going for perfection

[sultryvoltron]

1) Why shouldn't enforcers have the highest Nano Resist?

Because it makes no sense. I don't know who first started calling Enfs "the anti-caster class" but it simply makes no sense. The main tank profession, who should specialize in taking lots of damage, and dishing out a decent amount, simply shouldn't be the best at resisting nukes.

If you want some lame RP reason, The Enforcer's Nanobots are specialized to mitigate physical damage. On the other side, Meta Physicists and Nano Technicians spend all their time dealing with Nanobots designed to attack people, and certainly they would have the greatest understanding of how to code their nanobots to minimize hostile nanobots from other people.

2) If you take away enforcer nano resist, what defenses do you think they would be left with? How do these defenses compare to other professions (more Indepth question but fair if you are willing to answer)?

HP. I thought they were going towards fixing this, but as long as FC hugs 30% caps, HP is a hinderance more than a benefit (except for avoiding alphas, which are going away). Large, consistent damage almost always gets the best of Enfs. For professions who only dish out damage, Enfs should be the thorn in their side. Enfs should have enough survival from their HP and absorbs to stand their ground against 3 people, but perhaps not kill all 3 of them.

3) If an enforcer does not alpha you, what means does he use or should he have to kill you?

Personally, I would like Enf regulars to be their main source of damage. I've always sort of thought of Enfs as having standing power and consistent damage, not having run away power and alpha damage..

4) Why shouldn't an enforcer have higher runspeed as a melee profession than a pet, ranged, or support profession?

Because Enforcers can insta-break CC. Advys also fall into this category. They are simply immune to CC. Chasing down kiters is fine, but having a constant edge over people who need to run to live is a tad much.

People don't kite you because they think it's funny to screw with you. People kite Enfs/MAs/Engi Pets because they can't stand up to the damage, while you can stand and take their damage all day. If they don't kite you, they die.

5) Why shouldn't enforcers have lots of stuns or lots of init debuffing?

The init debuffing is just a tad too much. I don't mind that they have it, but -2600 inits on my Agent means I'm going to die to the Enf.

6) Is the worst part of the 1he/1hb alpha the 3x 3500ish pvp perks, the snare/init debuff perk, the 1 additional stun, the def checks, or the SA? I'd like to know exactly which part people have the most trouble with and not just saying all of it together is OP.

The extra stun and the init debuff coupled with extra damage. I know you said not to lump things together, but it has to be done.

The damage alone won't kill anyone who is paying attention. The stun (with the other enf stuns) helps out the damage, providing the tiny window needed to get all the perks off before they can throw defenses up, killing the opponent. The init debuff is the icing on the cake, preventing casting defenses so the enf can kill them before they get a heal off.

The proposed changes are fine. That's just my take on the curent perks.

7) If you feel enforcers have too much AAD then should enforcers be the only profession prevented from focusing on a defensive setup? Remeber that our defensive focused setup has lower def than every profession asside from doctors I believe and is also greatly utilized in PVM.

Defensive setup has become such a lame, generalized term. An enf who sets up to be the best at casting layers should be considered a defensive setup. An enf who focuses on mad amount of HP should be considered a defensive setup. I'm sure you get my point. Defensive setups shouldn't focus on the same thing for every profession. It's taking all the uniqueness of the professions away.

[Obtena]

It's interesting to hear people think our AAD is OPed. Most of that comes from items that aren't Prof = Enfo. So what makes our access to those items more OPed than other professions? The only logic that you could have to disociate from that is the fact that enfos have the 'perfect storm' of defensive tools that as a whole are greater than the sum of their individual parts. I don't think anyone could argue truth from that.

Regardless, this thread is pretty interesting. I wouldn't mind seeing enfos nerfed on the defensive front, of course with some compensation on the offensive aspect which would likely raise the levels of oceans based on all the crying.

[Notcrattey]

Remeber that our defensive focused setup has lower def than every profession asside from doctors

Engi has it much worse.

[techprince]

About Enfs :

1) Hugeee HP
2) Sadly hugee NR, Rage removing almost everything but NT roots is extremely op'd
3) Coons, Evade perks.
4) Heals
5) Very high Offense.
6) *&@$#i PvP Fear Nano with 50% NR check.
7) Extremely high RS, enfos chasing down fixers/shade = lol
8) Perks doing hugee amount of dmg, 4k-5k dmg each, chain stuns, these perks are op'd yes.
9) High AC's so dmg is capped.

What should be done?
1) Rage cool down is a good start. Chain stunns are going to balance again good thing.
2) HP must be nerfed more, not just sl essence.
3) Perks doing 4k-5k dmg must get higher def check, though they have high execution time, they land on more players than evade profs.
4) Fear Line should get 100% NR check.
5) This is not a balanced prof this is one of the op'd profs in terms of pvp. Currently op'd profs list has Adv, Enf, NT, Trad :P

[erozc]

as i said.. 300 healdelta WHILE sitting not standing.
the healdelta isnt doubled by sitting down, its doubled before Healdelta modifiers.
...
as i said... while SITTING down when i have full alphas i have a HD tick of 256hp / tick.
...
stop being a retard and only add healing perks on the enf side of the calc when ur not calculating NT DD perks and add dmg % on nukes.
...
seriusly if u keep calling my logic flawed and claiming that u are right just makes u look like an idiot to those that actually knows how this game works.

Heal delta TICK RATE is doubled then you sit down. This means tick time is halved. I.e. 2 second heal delta standing up, 1 second heal delta sitting down.

I wonder if you actually have a TL7 toon since you are defending your position so eagerly. I think I know how this game works, and if you don't, you should not be pointing the finger on others and calling more knowledgeable people idiots. Did you ever notice you heal up over 2x faster when sitting down due to both increased heal delta and increased tick rate?

Finally, NT might well OD an enf's healing capacity over time, but can they do so in the time it takes the damage to nano shield to run out? Obviously dependant on a variety of factors, but it seems quite possible.

[Sterva]

There is no single thing that makes enfs OP--it's the combination of certain key things with other key things.

Like being able to absorb huge amounts of damage AND also being able to run away and lose almost anyone at whim.

Or being able to alpha down non evade profs AND outlast evade profs long enough to kill them fairly easily too.

The truth is, enfs are supposed to tank lots of damage, and I have no problem with that, but because of their particular toolset, they don't really need help from support profs, and they have very few real weaknesses.

Besides that, I'm not going to engage in retarded arguments like "why shouldn't enfs have high NR?" Why shouldn't my crat have AMS? Why shouldn't everyone roll a ranged adv?

This is the root of the problem, and the way to fix it is to remove the particular combinations of things that add up to enfs being OP. You don't have to nerf all of it to nerf enfs appropriately, and I don't care which things they get to keep and which are removed, the important part is breaking the over powered combinations of toolsets.

[IHaveHugeNick]

Yeah what the former caterwaul user said, it aint one thing (as in, say, triple) , its sometimes a mix of balanced things that causes the unbalanced combination.

And i could write an essay but being lazy, so skipping to the end of it, the example of bad combination would be mixing huge alpha+huge defense+immunity to CC+ biggest runspeed ingame= bad idea.

Also to whoever said Enfs should deal more damage in PvP through regular hits: they do ****load of that already, try facing one with something without heals and you shall see.

[Gatester]

Ill make some broad replies but I thought I would get to this one since I thought it was funny

Besides that, I'm not going to engage in retarded arguments like "why shouldn't enfs have high NR?" Why shouldn't my crat have AMS? Why shouldn't everyone roll a ranged adv?

Aren't you getting a damage to pet, aka a defensive action very similar to reflects, in the future

Anyways my point was that Nano Resist is currently enforcers main defense, where as reflects would be a secondary defense for crats after their high def. Not making sense is irrelevent, the fact is this is what enforcers were created with and it is the best thing we have even over the CC removal portion of the rage line.

Now, calling enforcers the fastest profession makes very little sense. We are capped at RS just like half the professions at 220, the only difference is who makes best use of their speed. I think any ranged profession is understandibly "better" capped than any melee profession, while enforcers are at the top of the melee profession list because we have the best melee range and the more effective CC tools for a melee prof.


I have been thinking about being both capped at RS and able to break CC tools however, and I do not like how easy our escapes are. I question wether we should have this type of survival, and I understand it ties into our toolset but I think its too much. My alternative solution would be making Rage remove only roots, and instead of clearing snares, rage could stack with them. In otherwords having 3200 runspeed with rage could reduce the effectiveness of a -1200 RS snare rather than removing it entirely. This is ofc in the midst of shorter durations but if we are going to be hard to snare then I personally see this as a fair alternative. Consider it like running into an agent that lands tranq, the enforcer is handicapped properly but the debuff giving the agent time to do what he needs.


Our healing is not that good tech BR just makes it seem that way for 30 seconds. Im sorry crats have no real chance vs an enf though, honest


I did forget about engie def values and you are correct notcrattey so thank you for correcting that


The last thing Ill comment on, some people think we are supposed to tank lots of damage, but its highly situational. Depending on our opponents we can either work great at reducing the damage we take (multiple damage types, nano based attacks, kiting pets) or we can take more than most other professions (capping specials, DM, prolonged time near pets [based on low def values]) With support we become many many times more effective at this, if not the best profession at taking damage with heals and reflects. In otherwords, we become a tank in mass pvp but are forced into ganking drive by attacks in small groups.

Post-balancing and nerfing specials (mainly AS) means a great deal for enforcer survival. Weakening our main weakness, however, might not be such a balanced thing in the future so we will see.

[lostlife]

I don't know who first started calling Enfs "the anti-caster class" but it simply makes no sense.

threw the addition of items like rage and ibcht it is implied that enfos are supposed to be anticaster

Personally, I would like Enf regulars to be their main source of damage. I've always sort of thought of Enfs as having standing power and consistent damage, not having run away power and alpha damage.

i would to, but normals mean little in pvp today, if that were to change i would gladly loose my alpha

Because Enforcers can insta-break CC. Advys also fall into this category. They are simply immune to CC. Chasing down kiters is fine, but having a constant edge over people who need to run to live is a tad much.

with incomming CD on rage this will be changed


what is every ones thoughts on how effective the enfo combo alpha will be when it takes 15-25 secs to preform the entire thing, when people can cast heals/defensive actions/make like a tree and get the hell out of there in the middle of it?

[X-Styx-X]

seriusly if u keep calling my logic flawed and claiming that u are right just makes u look like an idiot to those that actually knows how this game works.
its very simple. go into a BS. try to get an enf down in health... if u dont succeed id petition that enf as a sploiter - or i would realise i prolly doesnt know how to play an NT and go play some easier game like solitaire or something

makes me look like a idiot ? lol
i know how my NBG shield works , u do not
so if i dont agree to ur flawed logic i'm a idiot xD ?

NBG does NOT take PVP cap dmg calced on the hp of the NT
it acts as a 1layer Coon, and as a enf u should know how easy Coon is dropped with capping attacks like FA/AS/SA


stop acting like nt's dominate enfs, its a 50/50 fight if we get em rooted
we crush pvm enfs that dont know how to pvp thou

[Sterva]

Anyways my point was that Nano Resist is currently enforcers main defense...the fact is this is what enforcers were created with and it is the best thing we have...

You're making qualitative judgement backed up by little more than your own opinion. NR might be your favorite defense, but it certainly isn't your main defense, and it might not necessarily be the best thing you have, either.

It's also not the most OP thing you have, by itself. But as I said, it's the combination of a lot of various things that make enfs OP. NR + lots of HP + lots of damage mitigation + high runspeed + ability to avoid / quickly get out of CC makes enf defense OP.

NR isn't your main or best defense, your defense is a combination of a lot of good little things that adds up to one big great thing. So fight to avoid getting nerfed in a particular way, I could care less, but some things have got to go for the combination of things to be broken up a bit or enfs will always be OP.

edit: also, run speed is soft capped, it still makes a difference to have more than 2500 RS, just not as much of a difference--and one of the key things about enfs is that you always have that RS cap, where other fast professions have to contend more with snares.

[Marinegent]

Little too much AAD, and too many stuns. Reduce the AAD a tad and take away a stun or two.

From an agent perspective the initdebuffs are a killer and on regular terms can not be mitigated, but the initdebuff issues are being looked at in agent rebalancing.

But I really think that's it.

[heartless888]

Little too much AAD, and too many stuns. Reduce the AAD a tad and take away a stun or two.

From an agent perspective the initdebuffs are a killer and on regular terms can not be mitigated, but the initdebuff issues are being looked at in agent rebalancing.

But I really think that's it.

from an agent percpective? do you mean duels, because in duels you can just go sold, rrfe, wait, go enf and cast behe and SL ess then go doc and there, gg enf ;P theres your agent percpective

[Marinegent]

from an agent percpective? do you mean duels, because in duels you can just go sold, rrfe, wait, go enf and cast behe and SL ess then go doc and there, gg enf ;P theres your agent percpective

"Regular terms and can not be mitigated"

In a standard equip, and standard buffs, in standard non /duel function pvp.

I didn't say duel scenarios weren't doable, I have videos of myself beating 1hb/1he enfs in a duel equip. The thing with that is that the duel equip is utterly useless outside of Enforcer and MA duels, and therefore not really credible.