to much AAD
1hb perks wich land way to easy ( those perks +SA dimach = dead evader)
to much AAD
1hb perks wich land way to easy ( those perks +SA dimach = dead evader)
Styxian MP overlord of Rk2
DEVIL INSIDE
its Avalanche from the trollform perk line and bring the pain from 1hb perkline..Originally Posted by Noobius76
Avalanche has a 2-3 mins recharge tho and requires troll form to alreayd be running wich takes 2 secs to execute and then an aditional 1 sec for avalanche to execute.
and troll form has a 2k snare attached to it so its pretty much useless against anyone that kites.
but yeah.. i know for a fact that well coordinated enfs can keep a player stunned for a good period of time.
me hobbes666 and behehe killed questra quite nicely a while ago with keepign him chain stunned that way and fearing after the stuns had completed.
the nerf to the stuns are inc tho.. check the perk docs... longer execute time and less duration.
and it requires several enfs that is very well coordinated to keep up the stunning as it is already.
and i totally agree with u that enfs are competitive...
we realy are a class that is fun to pvp on from time to time and we are realy not gimped.
but we are not the top of the food chain either and as i said in my previous post, the thing that keeps enfs competitive is our alpha capability and the ability to get out of trouble, not our def.
the thing that anoys me the most about enfs is that so many people kite us succesfully atm.. if they manage t get out of range for just 1 sec our alpha is borked and we gotta wait 1 min to even dent that player again.
Last edited by Moonbolt; Feb 13th, 2010 at 16:04:13.
Moonbolt - 220/26/something. Trox Enf RK1 General of Hells Heroes.
Renswind - 220/21/67 solitus trader.
Moonkiss - 219/21/something opifex shade.
Mooncloud - 150/18/somethin solitus MA.
Lol that screws pretty much everyone's alpha. Mainly alpha of melee classes. But most of them got very slow runspeed compared to you.
Tbh enf are really powerful (read - OP'ed) at lower levels. But they seem to be pretty much balanced at TL7. Only 1he/1hb combo seems to be a bit wrong.
enfs are just fine atm.
if some profs need nerf that is advs/NTs
and some love should get mp/keeps
Perskules 220/30 Soldier
Paholainen 220/30 Mp
Vihu 220/30 Fixer
Vihulainen 170/22 Fixer
Persku 170/16 Doctor
Rankeli 161/16 Tra
Viikinki 150/20 Keep
Ok time to start.
First off TL2-5 enfs are within the top 3 pvp professions at all timesI should have stated TL7 since everyone should realize how powerful enfs are leveling.
Issue 1: Runspeed
Enfs have a lot of runspeed, but all melee professions except keepers maintain a capped RS. It is necessary because they are a melee profession, and based on my shades 3m attack range gettiing kited makes it almost impossible for me to kill.
A benefit of enforcers most might not be aware of is the greatest melee range. Our %scale adds to our attack range, pretty much doubling the range we can attack from. I don't think this effects perks but it is still relevant.
Enforcers, however, spend more time running away from players than chasing them down. This pisses me off when anyone does it, and I don't like doing it on my enf but it is a matter of survival. You are also very unlikely to stop the enforcer from running.
Issue 2: Nano Resist
I have 3-3.3k NR on Gatester, which is incredible. Compared to my shade it is significant to have so much. Having high NR is part of the enforcer profession though. We are meant to be hard to land nanos on and get close and take you out. If you took away an enforcers high NR, it would be similar to taking soldier AMS, engineer spec blockers, NT NBS. Yes they are are very strong defenses, but when those professions do not have them they are crippled.
My NR is strong, but I like my NR and without it enforcers would be broken. Who would play an Attack Rating and Nano Casting dependant profession with 0 debuff removal tools and never resists debuffs?
Issue 3: Rage
The root removal portion. Personally, I have no idea why we need so much NR and the ability to remove all but 1 professions CC tools. Perhaps FC intended enfs to be the anti-CC profession but disregarding another players defenses does not always seem fair. I am not going to say that if a trader drains us we can't rage, or we can't afford to get rooted because they will debuff us to hell. That is an issue with certain tools and debuffs lasting too long when they do land, not an issue with us.
Rage is getting a lockout so we cannot spam it, and hopefully CC tools can land more regularly but with reasonable durations. Other enfs usually disagree, but I feel an enforcer like any other profession should at least be effected by CC tools. This is a big part of what makes enfs so hard to actually kill and pisses many people off.
Issue 4: AAD
Ok I have 1034 AAD if I remember correctly on Gatester atm, PVM build. Along with Highway I have 200 more AAD, and static evades are 1567, for a total of 2601 to 2801. Now keep in mind I am defensively setup and I am even wearing combined scouts gloves. The AAD primarily works when fully OSB'd and in PVM situations. It is more a part of our damage mitigation than working as effective evades. My setup with this level of def also has 3000 AR with challenger and 3270ish with procs.
For pure offensive setup enfs you can drop the def by ~200. I do hope no one thinks that is a high number. If players feel our low defense (compared to other professions) is too much, then it would have to be replaced by further damage mitigation. I would not care either way, as long as I am not getting slammed with massive amounts of damage and no real means of reducing it.
Issue 5: Mongo Healing
This is not an issue. 22 seconds or whatever it is to heal 5600 is not a lot of healing. A capped hit on an enforcer is 2x that. Where this becomes "effective" is coupled with our absorbs. Tanks are supposed to survive with damage mitigation and over time healing, which is an extension of damage mitigation. Some professions are justifiably unable to contend with enforcer survival but it means those professions need boosts. Enforcers have a hard time surviving some professions, and an easy time surviving others and a nerf to enfs would be a step in the wrong direction.
Issue 6: Stuns
Enforcers have a lot of stuns, and the problem is we need everyone of those stuns just to handle a single profession. When a tool is necessary to defeat one profession and destroys several others, then there is an issue. Stuns are, however, being nerfed across the board for enfs, and at the same time that happens the profession we can barely kill with all our toolset should be weakened as well.
After the adjustments to stuns I think enforcers part will be more balanced. They should be acting more as short term roots than strong disabling effects that enfs chain together.
Issue 7: 1hb/1he
This one is iffy for me. 2he, 2hb, pure 1he, and pure 1hb are not a threat to anyone honestly. 2he can be somewhat dangerous but the lockout on damage perks is incredibly long. The 1hb/1he combo is the enforcers effective damage alpha. When the nerf hit 1he/1hb, I felt it was justified in the long run but brought about too soon as we need the damage.
Consider this, if an enforcer does not alpha you, how does he kill you? Is it wrong for a profession to be able to kill someone? People complain because the combination works, but without this combination how many of those that constantly complain would never die to enforcers. Keep in mind, most professions cannot be perked without Mongo Rage if their defenses are up.
Until FC gives enforcers a way to kill other than alphaing, an alpha is unfortunately necessary for enforcers.
I think I covered the more specific points brought up. The two biggest issues players have with enforcers overall is A) that they run away too easily and B) that their alpha is too strong. Running away all the time is stupid, enforcer survival is not so low that they have to do that, but it is tied into an enforcers offense. When the offense takes 1-2minutes to refresh an enforcer would rather run off and not take damage than sit around dieing and waiting. Complaining about dieing is stupid "if" it is not a result of you being put in a situation where you cannot fight back. Dieing because you are "perma" stunned is wrong, dieing because of a strong alpha is not. This is what makes GTH or LE nukes OP.
Last edited by Gatester; Feb 13th, 2010 at 18:42:17.
gatester for prof in 2013?
for sake of aurgument thouh, can a pvp enfo wank in and tell us his/her/it's aad skill?
having hard hitting normal hits (like queen blade back in the day) would be pretty cool, but then you would see people doing 1he or 1hb swap with it so it would need like a 10 sec equipe time
What's wrong with Enforcers:
- Insane runspeed and NR thanks to Rage. Along with an insta-CC remover in the form of, again, Rage that enables them to get away from near anything but a zerg. In other words, good luck trying to kill an enf that's decided he doesn't feel like dieing today. That is from a general point of view - Agents have a much easier time *killing* the Enforcer.
- Absolutely insane alpha. When an Enforcer alphas better than a Shade, Agent, NT, etc.. there is something wrong. This insane alpha problem can be explained (not everything necessarily at the same time!):
--> Ability to use two main damage perklines at the same time, Blunt Mastery and Edged Mastery.
--> Access to a plethora of init debuff perks, making for a total potential 1100+600+900=2600 debuffed nanoinit.
--> Access to You Are Next. This fear is, when combined with the above mentioned init debuff perks, a caster's worst nightmare. Just when you are about to finish casting through the deinit, the Enf hits his fear, and your casting stops.
--> Access to multiple snares, one of which is combined with a fear, allowing the Enforcer to catch up to any kiter. While kiting sucks for the Enforcer, it is often done because some professions can't even take regular hits from the Enf and live.. let alone suck up the alpha.
- Perfect hit and run profession. Fast and lethal alpha. Extremely well performing escape toolset. Can take a lot of beating.
From a strict 220 Agent point of view:
The deinits and high alpha are the end of me. I need to go full aggro (making me as vulnerable as a newborn baby to any debuffer), and swap to a hp-ish setup, to have any chance at all of surviving the alpha. As a result the Enforcer is unperkable, meaning I can't use one of my main alpha survival tools: Concussive Shot. If the Enforcer uses fear, I am pretty much guaranteed to die.
From a strict 165 MP point of view:
They pretty much ignore my hardcore twinked evades - I'm getting perked because of double AAO check on Crave+Feast. Not only that, even a regular hit from the Enforcer is usually a 30% cap. Should I, however, manage to survive the fight there is the problem of actually killing one. They have TOOOOO much NR, and too much healing. I can't stop them from casting their top nanos short of using NSD (yeah right, gl landing that).
Lupusceleri L220/30/70 Agent -- Advisor of Spartans -- equip endgame AR setup endgame def setup <3 Azs wearer of Cheree's pants
Arrowsmith -- Arafellin -- Alphacenta -- Aesculapias -- Wolfseye -- Lysdexic
TL5 enf twink: im out those MPs are to overpowered
crattey: The Balance Discussion forum. Where common sense goes to die.
Apologies for the double post, but saw you made a new one while I posted my last post.
Valid points.
Disagreed. For 3.2k NR like your Enforcer has even without procs, I have to perk into Notum Repulsor 2 pretty much giving up any hope of casting the new nanos or landing hostile nanos. Whichever way you would like to turn it, it's too much. Reduce it to something like 2.5k, at least that would make sense.
Agents are one of those Attack Rating and Nano Casting dependant profession with 0 debuff removal tools. Any caster will land debuffs anytime they want unless I'm perked into NR2. And even then, I still get debuffed all the time.
If a Trader drains you, that does not stop you from just using Infernal Rage instead of Hellish Rage. 639 reqs, 325*2=650 double drains, so 1289 nanoskills undrained to still have Infernal Rage even after all the debuffing.
Rage with a lockout is definitely a good thing though.
Stuns are not a problem.
Yes, they wtfpwn a noob but a good pvper can just use Free Movement to stim out of them.
Lupusceleri L220/30/70 Agent -- Advisor of Spartans -- equip endgame AR setup endgame def setup <3 Azs wearer of Cheree's pants
Arrowsmith -- Arafellin -- Alphacenta -- Aesculapias -- Wolfseye -- Lysdexic
TL5 enf twink: im out those MPs are to overpowered
crattey: The Balance Discussion forum. Where common sense goes to die.
Yeah, perking evaders w/o MR. AR "on demand" (challenger) and chance-AR (procs) are things a lot of professions would kill for.
This. Stupid infused ancient thingamabobs for everyone took it over the top.
Lower TLs (up to 5) they are quite insane. Super nanos and weapons as outlined by Saetos are a major reason for that. The combination of AR on demand, NR, RS, high HP and near unrootability combined with solid damage and nice perks (and that absorb tank armor) makes a lot of profession toolsets not really work.
Eroz, finally 220/26/70 Adventurer & proud General of Regulators on ex-RK2 (outdated) equip
Rokroland, 170 Engineer No more crab for j00 Northern Front on ex-RK2
Ranged roxxorz!
Sig last updated properly when West Athens still had people sitting about the subway.
I honestly don't see this insane alpha that ppl claim enfs have.
Perhaps it's because they don't really try full out on my toon since it's a soldier. But I can honestly say that no enf took me much under 50%.
Fixers and traders for instance do the same damage and they do it alot faster and with much shorter recharge.
Personally I don't think enfs need any nerfage save for the stuns.
Imo those don't really need to be nerfed in duration but they shouldn't be chainable like they are now.
And to "evaders" complaining about dying to a dimach alpha; puhleeezze. Someone has to be able to do something to you.
I'd rather see other classes have their toolsets updated at lower levels, but sure, if that can't be done, adjust some of the enf nanos. After all that's how the balancing act should be done.
HOWEVER.. Before, or at least at the same time you nerf enfs, seriously nerf traders. It's no coincidence that mr trader pro thinks enfs need a nerf. Enf is after all together with agent in mimic enf the only prof that has a better than 50/50% chance vs a smilarly equipped trader.
How do you wear someone down when all you get is "Target out of range"x10000?
ps. I have a tl4 enf. I get this ALL the time, with 3k rs, vs ppl with considerably less.
Melee needs alpha power. I'm fine with dying on my ranged toons. Because I know that's the only way to kill, since ranged toons get ALL the CC.
Reducing it to 2.5k would make it terribly inneffective for enfs. It would be like dropping the reflect cap for soldiers to 80%. It is still a decent amount, but its not enough for the profession to work. Similarly, MA's and NR2 users achieve the same amount of NR as my enforcer, yet they rarely recieve complaints.
I would also like to remind you that you are getting access to nano doctorate 10If FC gave enfs removal tools, they could drop me down to 2k NR and I would even prefer it.
I am laughing a bit about your nanoskill numbersIssue 3:Rage
If a Trader drains you, that does not stop you from just using Infernal Rage instead of Hellish Rage. 639 reqs, 325*2=650 double drains, so 1289 nanoskills undrained to still have Infernal Rage even after all the debuffing.
Rage with a lockout is definitely a good thing though.
Paper pvp, just because you can think the Hellish Rage removed and cast Infernal Rage instead does not mean it can happen in game. You start canceling the wrong buffs, too much crap goes in your NCU at once and then you have to hope you actually have the nano to cast rage
Stuns are not a problem for profs with massive heals, they are a problem for everyone else. You can disregard a 28000 damage alpha attempt when you can heal 10000 of it mid-alpha attempt. For someone like an NT or engineer, when you start getting chain stunned and can't escape you die.
You have more issues with the init debuffs, but you are one of two professions I think are actually debilitated by it. I can offer a good question for you then, would you actually die to an enforcer alpha if there were no init debuffing? You said you could ignore the stuns so that means you could CH at any point during an alpha.
Last edited by Gatester; Feb 13th, 2010 at 23:46:05.
I dont think enfs are OP, but those dubble checking perks who lands trough dof and limber combined with conc perks and SA can wear a shade down FAST, especially when u cant perk the enf with 3k AR (Prolly outside baffed tho, but even so). I dont see enforcers are a evade prof, so the fact that they can reach that kind of def is ridiculous to me. But on that note, I've rarely been beaten by a enf in a duel (But as ppl claim, duels aren't pvp).
And if u think about it, enfs got:
- High HP
- High NR
- High Alpha with tons of stuns
- High Runspeed
- High AR
- Pretty nice evades
- Hots up their a$$
- 2x coons (More if ur nanomage xD)
- Absorbs
Most profs can just dream about the defenses and offenses an enforcer has, except a few ofc (Dont need to say who that is -.-)
But this is just a shades thoughts on a late night, might be mistaken bout half the things i've said here, but its the roxs™ bedtime.
lol wat? That statement about MAs is terribly terribly incorrect.
And any prof that goes NR2 makes some serious sacrifices to do so.
Actually the only prof you MIGHT see in NR2 is agents, maybe NTs too
If I go NR2, I might as well go NR8
Last edited by navycut; Feb 14th, 2010 at 01:11:40.
That looks better now.
Last edited by Kopecz; Feb 14th, 2010 at 01:47:11.
I don't see how it would be like dropping soldier reflect cap? 2.5k or lower is what nearly every profession in this game has to work with. I don't even get that much by swapping more NR armor and perking NR1.
MA can get that much NR for 20 seconds every 73 seconds (unadjusted for -skill lock modifier, but still). Not even close to what an Enf gets.
NR2 users have to give up any hope of casting the new DB nanos. For most professions these are pretty much essential.
1. I can't recall the last time I saw a good MP on the BS. Not only that, any BS Virus Scanner instantly removes NSD.I would also like to remind you that you are getting access to nano doctorate 10
2. Agents do not have the perks to use Nano Doctorate 10, the 1.5k extra hp from Enhanced Health is truly essential for our survival.
What? Thanks for winning the argument for me.I am laughing a bit about your nanoskill numbers
The Infernal Rage requirements are 639 BM, 639 MM, and 639 MC.
Nanite Improved drains remove 325 nanoskills each. Get hit by two of them, and you've lost 650 nanoskills.
639+650=1289 in BM, MM, and MC is needed pre-debuffs to cast Infernal Rage after getting double drained.
1560 is way over that. I would definitely spend enough IP on an additional 29 MM if that lets me cast an awesome getaway nano when I'm in a situation I really want to get the heck out of.
Terminating some buff in your NCU midfight isn't that hard at all, in fact this was a widely used tactic by TL7 pvp enforcers pre-cocoon-nerf. That way they had a lower 30% cap and their Bio Cocoon lasted longer. This is the sole reason you can't cancel the iMongo hp component.Paper pvp, just because you can think the Hellish Rage removed and cast Infernal Rage instead does not mean it can happen in game. You start canceling the wrong buffs, too much crap goes in your NCU at once and then you have to hope you actually have the nano to cast rage
I am still using this tactic on my 90 Agent twink. Cast Mongo for the hot, cancel hp component after getting hit by one or two AS, and voila you've had a big "heal".
One good tip to pull it off is making your NCU list mode rather than using all the weird icons.
Hellish Rage can also just, y'know, run out. It only lasts 42 seconds.
1. Get stunned.
2. Hit Free Movement.
3. Spam defensive action (IE: NBG/nm-coon and Bio Cocoon/Bio Regrowth for the professions mentioned).
4. ???
5. Survive stuns.
I do not ignore the stuns (there is a 1s delay on your Free Movement), but I can live through them no problem. You do have to change your timing though; start working on getting a heal off before you actually need it for example.
I would actually die to an enforcer alpha if there was no init debuffing. Just a lot less, and only to the top of the bill enfs. Just a -600 init debuff wouldn't be overpowered, but anything like UBT and beyond gives me a helluva time especially since that new init debuffing power comes with a much increased damage alpha.
Lupusceleri L220/30/70 Agent -- Advisor of Spartans -- equip endgame AR setup endgame def setup <3 Azs wearer of Cheree's pants
Arrowsmith -- Arafellin -- Alphacenta -- Aesculapias -- Wolfseye -- Lysdexic
TL5 enf twink: im out those MPs are to overpowered
crattey: The Balance Discussion forum. Where common sense goes to die.
Because to drop someone as melee you need to catch up to them.
If your rs isn't superior you won't catch up. And then you lose.
Huge AR + massive perk alpha with lots of stuns. 18k HP under 27% reflects drops to maybe 10% before I'm even able to hit my coon button.
Huge RS+NR. Alpha fails? Just bail. Capped RS with the ability to remove all but NT roots and increased potential to even resist those. I drop a -2500 RS mine on an enfo and it barely even phases him with rage procs + APF rage. God forbid an enfo have GSF and top wolf. No snare is effective and he can just hit a fear and stroll away while you're running into a wall.
Huge HP. The huge specials that enfos bitch and moan about... if it weren't for those they'd just SL ess and lol while you try to whittle away 70k+ HP. Yes, I know that huge HP is a drawback currently, and thank god.
Big AAD. It's not on fixer or crat levels, but many enfos are unperkable with pistol perks. 80% check and I can't land them. The rest of my perks check NR and well... good luck with that.
So to recap... big AR+many stuns to hold me in place while they deal big damage, enough RS+NR to escape and I will not catch them, many HPs for me to chew through before they view me as a real threat and enough AAD to render anything but AS (never misses) and pets (if they didn't have 80k AR or w/e nobody would be afraid of them) useless.
Waiting for a cure.
Well enfs rage give a lot bonuses and quite none drawback on RK.
Increase DOT while on RK and rage will have nice drawback.
And whilte DOT running enfo cannot use Mongo.
Yeah...and less AAD for enfos.
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Yama*007
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