What makes Enforcers OP in your opinion?

[Mostadio]

ill give you a global game issue, advies having next to 900 more def than enf.

Yes. We know. Way to kick the dead horse/insert the overused strawman. There are enough "advy am OP threads". Post in those, we're talking about enfs.

[heartless888]

Yes. We know. Way to kick the dead horse/insert the overused strawman. There are enough "advy am OP threads". Post in those, we're talking about enfs.

but thats the problem, why cry about enfs when clearly there are other things alot worse?

[lostlife]

but thats the problem, why cry about enfs when clearly there are other things alot worse?

because means wants a nice over powered prof for when his children come of age

[Klod9003]

but thats the problem, why cry about enfs when clearly there are other things alot worse?

This new horse corpse is so fresh and it smells very nice.

You might want to try NOT contradicting yourself because at post #183 you said that enfos weren't OP'ed.

I never said that they were OP'd.

[Obtena]

ill give you a global game issue, advies having next to 900 more def than enf.

And this point is vaild because I see this:

"Enfos are OPed because they have the same thing that alot of other profs can achieve."

So what is people's criteria on what's OP'ed? I mean, if enfo's are OP'ed because they have what others have, then really, they aren't OPed or most of the people are missing a trick there. That sounds like the definition of balance to me, not being OPed.

[Klod9003]

And this point is vaild because I see this:

"Enfos are OPed because they have the same thing that alot of other profs can achieve."

So what is people's criteria on what's OP'ed? I mean, if enfo's are OP'ed because they have what others have, then really, they aren't OPed or most of the people are missing a trick there. That sounds like the definition of balance to me, not being OPed.

No, enfs are balanced, it's just the rest of us that are jealous, because we are not.

[Mostadio]

No, enfs are balanced, it's just the rest of us that are jealous, because we are not.

This could be true

[Gatester]

This is about fairly high AAD enfs can get, combined with stuff that other professions can't get at the same time, like high NR/root and snare resistance/ability to easy remove roots and snares/capped speed/stuns/high alpha potential... You make the math.

It's not global game issue.

Taking away the root/snare resistance which enfs should only have 20% (maybe you want to consider it more because of the high NR but its debateable) along with the things that make a melee profession viable in pvp and you can get to a better relationship of tools. Things that make a melee profession viable is the ability to remove roots and snares (this should be fairly obvious for anyone that knows a level 20 can chain root and kill a 49 twink), and capped runspeed (Thanks for not saying highest runspeed lol).


I actually have decided to agree with everyone on enforcers having too much AAD. I say we remove it all and that can be what gets nerfed on enfs besides rage nerfs. Now you can't have the NR and AAD and runspeed and CC breaking tool, so we get to AT LEAST keep the NR while everythign else is reduced and nerfed. Oh yeah and our max health is supposedly being nerfed.

Now Enforcers have High NR, decent runspeed but no longer the fastest prof, a CC removal tool with a lockout, lower max health (still highest), mid-low healing ability, and low AAD (lets say 2300 static def). Now how many would say this is balanced?

Everyone thinks this is balanced? Great Now we have 2 choices off the top of my head, but ofc more viable with some thought. Enforcers either need a way of mitigating damage as efficiently as soldiers so that they can in fact survive in pvp, or they need an offensive ability equal to the defensive abilities of defensive professions.

For damage mitigation, we would have absorbs about 2.5x the current level (a little over 3000 absorbs) to adjust for the extra damage we will take. Capped hits are already too much to heal so the absorbs would have to make capped hits, DD profs or multiple attackers (pet users) the only real means of damaging us. I would ofc see a greatly increased nano-cost and slightly increased cast time forcing efforts on the enforcer to maintain such high level absorbs being a fair addition as well.

If increased damage mitigation that would allow us to survive as a rootable, slower, and evade-less melee profession was not approved, then our offenses would have to cover our lack of survival. We should be able to perk every profession as long as we depend on perks to kill you yet lack the defenses to survive your attacks. Dance of Fools would be enough to evade our perks, but once it is down any profession with less than 3800 static evades should be vulnerable to our attacks, and levels over 4000 would be required for specific perks (similar BUT not exactly the same as profs being targeted by soldier debuffs, since we would be weaker defensively). We would no longer be waiting on procs to break even 3250 attack rating, but we would be a constant threat. This also comes with a minimum alpha recharge time of one minute. If an enforcer is going to be dieing every minute they should be killing at least one equally geared player during that time frame.

You have to consider that when you nerf a profession that, on a whole, is already nearly balanced, that there will be drastic adjustments made to maintain its playability. If we do not have an average level of damage mitigation through multiple means of defense, then enforcer playstyle would have to be changed completely. You can make us a pvp tanking profession, able to take lots of damage but generally unable to escape much like soldiers. You can make us an offensive powerhouse, a profession that would die very quickly but be a considerable threat to every profession much like an NT or trader can be. Even more possiblities arrive but what has to be considered is that a profession that is altogether nerfed into lacking any enjoyable features or means of simply surviving is not a viable goal in profession balancing.



I would be happy if enforcers were taking every perk, nuke, pet hit, special, and regular hit from every profession in this game as long as I had a means of surviving with healing over time, reducing its damage with proper tools, or taking you out before you finish me off. Currently enforcers are a bad mix of all three that is Overpowered when it works, and garbage when it fails.

[crattey]

If increased damage mitigation that would allow us to survive as a rootable, slower, and evade-less melee profession was not approved, then our offenses would have to cover our lack of survival. We should be able to perk every profession as long as we depend on perks to kill you yet lack the defenses to survive your attacks. Dance of Fools would be enough to evade our perks, but once it is down any profession with less than 3800 static evades should be vulnerable to our attacks, and levels over 4000 would be required for specific perks (similar BUT not exactly the same as profs being targeted by soldier debuffs, since we would be weaker defensively). We would no longer be waiting on procs to break even 3250 attack rating, but we would be a constant threat. This also comes with a minimum alpha recharge time of one minute. If an enforcer is going to be dieing every minute they should be killing at least one equally geared player during that time frame.

Dude, what the ****? I can understand people ranting off like this in real life, as some people seem to just be born without any type of filter between their random thoughts and their mouth, but this is the internet: read before you post. Think before you click the 'reply' button.

[Burgly]

He wants enfs to become shades with 3,8k ar.

[Gatester]

Dude, what the ****? I can understand people ranting off like this in real life, as some people seem to just be born without any type of filter between their random thoughts and their mouth, but this is the internet: read before you post. Think before you click the 'reply' button.

Ok so you have a nearly balanced profession, and then you nerf it in about 4 or 5 areas. So I will describe the enforcer you want, obviously due to a desire for balance and not because of some personal desire to remove defenses from profs that stop you from dominating them.

2000 max static def.
Rootable.
Locked out CC removal.
Lower runspeed.
Lower max health.

So whats a fair tradeoff since you want to nerf enforcers into the most defenseless profession in AO? Offense is one avenue. If you think its stupid for a profession that will die faster than a doctor with NR8 perked to be offensively dangerous, well I think its equally stupid for you to want to root professions that have to be in melee range to hurt you. If you don't want to turn enforcers into cannons of death then I would be careful with the "lets make enforcer survival garbage" crusade.

He wants enfs to become shades with 3,8k ar.

I don't want this at all, but if you make enforcers a CC tool vulnerable high AR profession, they become similar to soldiers yes? If you take away enforcers survival and damage mitigation then they become even less than soldiers who are a combination of damage mitigation and high AR. Therefore:

Damage mitigation + High AR = Tank Profession (Currently)

High AR + No survival = Broken Profession (What everyone wants)

Massive AR - Survival = Berserker Profession (What could happen)

I don't want this, but don't be suprised if it becomes an option. Everyone wants to see enforcers as the easiest prof to kill because they should take tons of damage with tons of health, well FC won't make us cannon fodder without giving us one to shoot back with.


Besides, shades don't exactly have 2000 static def do they, so your comment isn't quite accurate

[Burgly]

Besides, shades don't exactly have 2000 static def do they, so your comment isn't quite accurate

Neither does enfs But i get ur drift, i have no problems with enfs as they are now (Duel wise) but they wtf pwn me in a few secs in BS due to sneak + low checking perks, even trough dof and limber, throw in a dimach and i would die just to sneak, conc perks, dimach and maybe a regular. But then again iam more offensive setuped on my shade since i chose not to use MR. Dunno how easly other shades die to enfs in BS/other mass pvp encounters. This aint a "Oh enfs can kill me nerf them kinda whine thingy" I got no problems with the way enfs are atm, I just like to join debates

[McKnuckleSamwich]

gatester: youre on the right track. but 2300 evades might be a bit low.

I'd say 2700 maxish, if you're looking at nerfs.

IF AC's were still effectual, enfs could be AC HP masters for survival.

So, if youre looking at balance: removing, for example 50 AAD on the back and SE helm, what would that be replaced by? for me, AAO replacement isn't bad. If enfs could get the static AR they need to perk acrobat profs during limber, that is good, with low checking perks, is also ok, but could easily get OP'd. If enfs can free up 10 perks in atrox primary for other lines, that is also good.

20-30 seconds of borderline unperkableness for low AR setups if they have highway and or wit, isn't unreasonable either.

Enfs will still have great HP, and, the one thing youre forgetting about with mass HP is that docs get a LONG time to sort out a big heal for you if youre under attack. And, enfs usually can tank 2 profs long enough to get off a fast-gank, if they plan it right.

I think you're on the right track. Enfs are close to balanced, but, don't go crazy with your what do we neeed to nerf. They only need minor adjustments.

[deltazer0]

Ok so you have a nearly balanced profession, and then you nerf it in about 4 or 5 areas. So I will describe the enforcer you want, obviously due to a desire for balance and not because of some personal desire to remove defenses from profs that stop you from dominating them.

2000 max static def.
Rootable.
Locked out CC removal.
Lower runspeed.
Lower max health.

So whats a fair tradeoff since you want to nerf enforcers into the most defenseless profession in AO? Offense is one avenue. If you think its stupid for a profession that will die faster than a doctor with NR8 perked to be offensively dangerous, well I think its equally stupid for you to want to root professions that have to be in melee range to hurt you. If you don't want to turn enforcers into cannons of death then I would be careful with the "lets make enforcer survival garbage" crusade.

...

You are assuming that people want all of the parts of an enforcer's overpowered combination to be nerfed. I think that's not what anyone is implying and is what you are looking at solely because you want to take it to the most extreme case of nerfing enforcers (as a method of proving a point...though I can't say it is very substantial).

I really do not believe that anyone in this thread is asking for enforcer's to have 2000 static defense, a lower runspeed, and lower max health as well as being rootable and locked out of CC removals. My impression from what everyone has said is that the combination of what you guys have, defensively, as a combination, is overpowered. That does not mean every single part of a combination needs to be nerfed. Perhaps just lowering everything slightly would be one possible solution or just giving a moderate nerf to one or two aspects of the "overpowered defensive combination of blah blah blah."

TL;DR (or for those who can't understand what I'm saying since this post isn't long at all): No one said that all of an enforcer's "overpowered combined defenses" needed to be nerfed; just one or two is most likely sufficient enough to appeal to the community.

But then again, we should wait until re-balance (which is supposedly soon?) before we all start talking about nerfing professions.

P.S. I've taken no sides, for your information.

[Darkirbiska1]

Rage nano+procs(RS+NR),Imongo combined with bio shielding line+5k dreadloch absorb.
fear+stuns<----nerf plox

[Obtena]

He wants enfs to become shades with 3,8k ar.

I think that would be interesting to try on the experimental server, if it existed. I would trade all my AAD for AAO and see what I could hit in PVP. Would it make us shades? Well, I don't think so. The other parts of our toolset are unique enough. I mean, having high evades doesn't make a crat a fixer either.

[heartless888]

Rage nano+procs(RS+NR),Imongo combined with bio shielding line+5k dreadloch absorb.
fear+stuns<----nerf plox

i am sure they wouldnt mind losing that for 4.5k evades and 3.5k heals

oh wait, those already exist, they are called advies.

[Gatester]

TL;DR (or for those who can't understand what I'm saying since this post isn't long at all): No one said that all of an enforcer's "overpowered combined defenses" needed to be nerfed; just one or two is most likely sufficient enough to appeal to the community.

But then again, we should wait until re-balance (which is supposedly soon?) before we all start talking about nerfing professions.

P.S. I've taken no sides, for your information.

Several things are already being nerfed, the issue is people wanting more. I simply offered some options as to what a further nerf would result in. Crattey didn't like my -700 AAD, +300 AAO suggestion, but seriously that is quite fair for that sort of trade off.




On a sidenote, I think Dimach should be removed in the balancing personally. Seems to mostly be me but I dislike FA, brawl, SA, dimach alphas. Now if enforcer dimach was special rather than just 3500ish damage then that would be alright

[Burgly]

On a sidenote, I think Dimach should be removed in the balancing personally. Seems to mostly be me but I dislike FA, brawl, SA, dimach alphas. Now if enforcer dimach was special rather than just 3500ish damage then that would be alright

I Agree With That. Throw in AS and u got a MA alpha (Not after rebalance tho) But its still a pretty hefty alpha for any melee prof to evade profs with minimal healing.

[Shareida]

Just breaking THROUGH the amount of healing, absorbs, and HP is already a quite time consuming job.

Enfs being worried about being perked by traders should get a reality check of how much damage combined a trader perk alpha actually means.

Lets make the list:

Easy shot 2k

Collapser 1k

Implode 800

Leg shot 1k + tiny dot

Nano feast 2k

Reap life 1k

Vital shock 1.5k

Note these are averages, 3 different damage kinds (layers?).

A total of 9kish... Until all of them are executed the enf certainly came back from coffee and hit Coon or hit mongo rage.