Friday with Means - January 29th, 2010 - Explosive database

[Keldros]

I am glad you can see the humour in it at any rate. If I wasn't able to laugh about these things I'm certain I would be having a lot less fun myself

That reminds me, have you put one of the artists on making a "Crate of death" to show Ragnar?

[Iamkama]

Good FwM!

Glad to hear that the engine is coming along nicely.

Unfortunate about the database incident, big "doh!" there.

Tlat, is it that time of the month? Chill out dude, seriously. Means and co. are working pretty hard with what they have.

Maybe you can do better?

edit : Oh! wtb a "death loop" socia t-shirt ingame

[Technogen]

The Death Loop shirt needs to have a picture of an Atrox on its back in water with a pair of headphones on and white space around it.

[Alternity]

Trox needs a Kimbo Slice model, wake up FC!

[Phargus]

P.P.S. 100% land rate on self using the 55% NR/300% level Def check Nano, while suffering -140 Nanoskills debuff, I'm sure Crats can do better, or they could if there was better than 100% land rate...

Right, and I imagine it was some rigorous testing there. An agent with 2.3k nr would have (2300*0.55)+(220*3) = 1925 def against this. Normal root ar for a combat setup 220 crat would be 1.8-1.9k

The whole discussion is pointless anyway. FC wants it to be possible for you to be unsneaked by aoes. If you have some good arguments for why you shouldn't, post them. So far all I've seen are incoherent rants...

[deltazer0]

...Questions from last week

People being brought out of sneak by AOE effects. Yes this is intended. If you resist the nano you will NOT be exposed. There will no longer be a "message" when you appear or disappear that will notify everyone in the area of your presence. It should also be noted that these AOE nanos are not going to be "spammable" as they are now. AOE effects will have a cooldown...so randomly spamming these tools will not be as efficient a way to detect hidden players as it is now. Either way...any hostile effects that hit you in sneak will likely continue to expose your position in the future. Players concealing will have to watch out for AOE professions as much as they have to watch out for concealed players...the advantage is still on the side of the concealers. Please check out test to try out the new conceal code..looks pretty good.

Have a great weekend!

Can you please explain why people should be brought out of sneak by AOE effects? Just give us a rationale as to why it should. The reason why there is so much opposition from some players is because we merely don't understand why it is "working as intended." I don't see any reason as to why AOEs should have the ability to bring people out of sneak, and I'm sure those of who don't agree with this mechanic can't see a reason to it either.

It doesn't matter to us if AOE nanos are not going to be spammable and if they have a cooldown - that's not directly addressing the issue as to why they should affect concealment at all.

So all I am asking from you is to clarify your reason as to why should AOE effects bring people out of sneak when concealment is supposed to be checked only by perception?

Like all others have said before:

Defense Rating (Evades) vs. Attack Rating
Nano Resist vs. Nano Skills
Concealment vs. Perception (Not perception AND nano resist)

The whole discussion is pointless anyway. FC wants it to be possible for you to be unsneaked by aoes. If you have some good arguments for why you shouldn't, post them. So far all I've seen are incoherent rants...

We haven't seen any good arguments as to why AOE roots should bring anyone out of sneak either. Just because Funcom wants it to be possible doesn't mean it should be possible. Look at everything Funcom wanted and incorporated: AI Armor, BR, GTH, etc. Does it mean that it should have been included? Perhaps. Perhaps not. Funcom has looked in the past and said, "That looks terrible and is crap . Let's fix it," after a lot of player feedback. Why can't they consider the player feedback first this time and fix it beforehand. If they have a cohesive answer as to why concealment has to combat both perception checks and nano resist checks, then fine, keep it. If not, then I don't see why it should be kept the way it is. After all, we ARE going through a "balancing change" and trying to fix things that are "broken," are we not? Just because it is "working as intended" doesn't mean it's not broken. See BR and GTH again.

So instead of looking at the problem and saying, "Working as intended because we want it that way," it should be, "Working as intended because <a good reason as to why it's working as intended - and no, AOE roots getting a longer cooldown doesn't constitute as a good reason because as far as I can see, AOE roots should NOT have ANYTHING to do with sneak since it checks nano resist>".

[Iamkama]

Why can't they consider the player feedback first this time and fix it beforehand.

Because sometimes, the players are not always right.

[deltazer0]

Because sometimes, the players are not always right.

Funcom is not always right either.

I didn't say "LISTEN TO THE PLAYERS," I said "consider it." As in, look at our arguments and provide arguments against them. Not just saying, "Lol stfu working as intended kthx gg."

[Technogen]

The argument is wrong though; I talked to some of the other profs on IRC about it. The problem is not that AOEs bring the target out of sneak, the problem is that the caster can use themselves as a target and not take any damage/debuff from the action of casting. This should not be, so pretty much if a Crat/trader is going to AoE root themselves to bring someone out of sneak they should be effected by the AoE root.

[Wrangeline]

The argument is wrong though; I talked to some of the other profs on IRC about it. The problem is not that AOEs bring the target out of sneak, the problem is that the caster can use themselves as a target and not take any damage/debuff from the action of casting. This should not be, so pretty much if a Crat/trader is going to AoE root themselves to bring someone out of sneak they should be effected by the AoE root.

That does make sense but it also simply makes sense because of limited game mechanics. What I mean is, it makes sense that players who are able to do an AoE-attack with their nanos can do so without targeting someone or something. This is a bit of a roleplaying reasoning as well. Casting nanobots in an area wouldn't require any targeting if this was real life. The only reason we have to target something in AO is because of limited game mechanics. We simply require a target because the game needs a frame of reference because we don't have a fluid targeting system like first person shooters or such.

The reason AO doesn't make aoe nukes damage the NT or aoe roots root the caster is because the self targeting system is probably only there to circumvent the fact that the game needs a target for the nano to be cast. If it wasn't for the fact that the game needs a target as a frame of reference, the casters could simply target nothing and still not get rooted themselves. Because the aoe-wave would start from the caster and work its way outwards, not including the caster in the area of affect because the caster is.. in the eye of the storm so to speak.

You can take this roleplay-reasoning ramblings of mine as you wish, I just like discussing logic and such for the fun of it. The only thing that matters is balance and what kind of gameplay that makes the game the most fun and reasonable all around.

[Kinkstaah]

I'm ****ing leaving this game, I'm tired of how lazy you people are, instead of doing the things right, you always go with that shameful response of yours: "Working as intended". The skill system is there for a purpose, the counter to concealment is perception, not nano resist, you morons, you're pissing the community off with your laziness.

Yeah, and if you dare moderate this message, just because I'm not licking Menas' balls, I will ****ing cancel my account right away. If this isn't the place for real feedback between players and the Game Director then where?

fklin lol

I love how each time there isn't anything new to show on Friday, it turns out there was some horrible completely unexpected disaster at the office.

At least get creative, say, for next week, Macrosun could have a little unexpected accident while performing a show with a flaming Hula hoop.

It isnt unexpected to have nothing 'noteworthy' in ONE WEEK for such a project. Not many people can answer "So, how was your week?" with an indepth interesting non-repetitive essay.

AoE roots bypass 3k Concealment, so why not?

In case you didn't realise I think both are retarded and was using one to illustrate just how retarded the other is.

AE roots are fine. Especially if they get a 15+ second cooldown on use.
Just make them (ae roots) lock out single roots too, and this issue will disappear.

[Hacre]

AE roots are fine. Especially if they get a 15+ second cooldown on use.
Just make them (ae roots) lock out single roots too, and this issue will disappear.

Anything else you'd like to ruin about CC tools? A 20k nano cost perhaps? 0.5m range?

[Ayria]

Anything else you'd like to ruin about CC tools? A 20k nano cost perhaps? 0.5m range?

Sure, you want to ruin conceal tools so it seems only fair.

[Hacre]

Sure, you want to ruin conceal tools so it seems only fair.

No I don't and they're actually getting better.

[Keldros]

That does make sense but it also simply makes sense because of limited game mechanics. What I mean is, it makes sense that players who are able to do an AoE-attack with their nanos can do so without targeting someone or something. This is a bit of a roleplaying reasoning as well. Casting nanobots in an area wouldn't require any targeting if this was real life.

WTB AoC's AoE targeting.

[Warhead]

Funcom is not always right either.

I didn't say "LISTEN TO THE PLAYERS," I said "consider it." As in, look at our arguments and provide arguments against them. Not just saying, "Lol stfu working as intended kthx gg."

And what makes you think he didnt consider and then dismiss it? He may not want to get drawn into endless arguments - look at yourself, you repeat the same stuff nearly 5 times in one posting. Arguing with such people is a recipe for a mental breakdown!

I got no problem with AoE kicking people out of sneak. And I dont play professions that have relevant AoE capability. In fact, I have one toon that would be able to muster the perception needed to see those sneakers. Cant call me biased.

However, if you want a reason that is no more silly than yours, here is one: All the sneaking skills in the world wont protect the bestest ninja from a frag grenade (thats the AoE) lobbed at him or somebody else near him.

[jokzer]

There is always a disaster or something on fire...

Hehe, I just got reminded of the "Men in Black" - when J wants to warn the population and K tells him that there's always some kind of emergency going on..

As for the FC band, at least you guys have an idea for the Norwegian version of Halloween.

[SSK]

AoE roots bypass 3k Concealment, so why not?

In case you didn't realise I think both are retarded and was using one to illustrate just how retarded the other is.

AoE roots bypass coceal because they doesn't check that skill, roots check NR, how it's hard to comprehend. Perception is used to see concealed people, player can run by and it doesn't effect you if you don't get hit, nor it helps others to spot you. AoE roots check vs NR and it's active offensive action in whole area, so if you fail to resist it, you get rooted and become visible, so it have nothing to do with conceal. Be happy FC removed system reporting about your unsneaking.

[Kinkstaah]

Anything else you'd like to ruin about CC tools? A 20k nano cost perhaps? 0.5m range?

I think it was common knowledge that roots will have a local cooldown. It makes perfect sense that it locks all roots available to that specific class.

Should be a choice that has to be made, a more effective single root, or a less effective AE root. Not just cycling whichever one isnt on cooldown.

[Krabicka]

So all I am asking from you is to clarify your reason as to why should AOE effects bring people out of sneak when concealment is supposed to be checked only by perception?

Because its hard to stay hidden when you are suddenly standing upright with green halo all around you.