The inherent problem with Reaper

[McKnuckleSamwich]

snip.

omg man, take a breather.

ok, I'm not familiar with pain lance and SnD, i admit that, but, I was almost positive that snD had a pre-req... could be wrong, no worries.

about all the rest of the stuff you said, I can't be bothered to get into the details, but, some of what you said near the end of all that only reinforces my argument:

If, at Tl7 you're fully perked into REaver, and you try an alpha, it doesn't kill your target, (AND the stun? recharge is 5 minutes so you don't get another chance for a while), so you need to hotswap, then, um, yea, that perk line needs something.

If a reaver alpha doesn't kill your target, then, maybe you can enlighten me how you would choose to alter it so it does kill your target?

for me, my main is MA, so generally, if a reaver perk alpha lands, I'm toast... I'm still tking dmg at reclaim. But, for others, I caan understand that with high HP it won't do enough dmg. Well, if not, can you do it without a hotswap? If not, that sucks! I hate havign to hotswap!

Well, ditto at TL5.

I want my rockin two perks that do a total of 1600dmg to land yea! sweet! 1600 dmg.. uh. ya, so what? you think I should ask for SA instead?

err, sorry, here is a quote from you: "It has very little to do with reaver being weaker than 1hb or 1he, like I said before - It's all to do with 2he simply not being enough to take down elite players."

I agree blame it on the specials, the weapon, the perkline. They all go together. I'm glad we're on the same page.

[Kinkstaah]

omg man, take a breather.

What, it took me about 2 minutes to type that. I barely got started.

ok, I'm not familiar with pain lance and SnD, i admit that, but, I was almost positive that snD had a pre-req... could be wrong, no worries.

Right, so we've finally established that the inherent problem with Reaver is you don't actually know anything about the perkline.

about all the rest of the stuff you said, I can't be bothered to get into the details, but, some of what you said near the end of all that only reinforces my argument:

If, at Tl7 you're fully perked into REaver, and you try an alpha, it doesn't kill your target, (AND the stun? recharge is 5 minutes so you don't get another chance for a while), so you need to hotswap, then, um, yea, that perk line needs something.

The stun is not in the 2he line, it is in the Form of Troll enforcer line. The issue isnt reaver.

Reaver is not behind 1he in perk damage, its not behind 2hb in perk damage, it's not behind 1hb in perk damage. It isnt behind Agent, Soldier perks either. It isnt the perk line at all that the problem is.

The real issue is the pass/fail check on perks in general, or the alpha or nothing system that is employed.

If a reaver alpha doesn't kill your target, then, maybe you can enlighten me how you would choose to alter it so it does kill your target?

Why alter Reaver? We've established that Reaver is a pretty adequate perk line. The way to alter it though would be as you suggested before, lower defensive cheecks on the weaker perks, using these to gradually beat down evade classes. Flat out ignoring their evades is stupid.

But why alter Reaver? Why not just add new perks, abilities. Why cant enforcers simply gain +5 AR every time they are hit in combat, or hit a target? (and have it decay when out of combat, or perhaps after landing a perk) Eventually if they are in active combat their AR will end up huge. Then enfs wouldnt run away after trying to gank. Enfs would actually actively tank people. They'd spec defensively to allow them to do so to build up AR. Give them a tool to take damage for another player and then they'd even protect people in PVP, and have a reason to do so. Eventually Mr tank enforcer who is being healed by a doc may have 6K AR after taking 50K of damage, and can turn around and dismantle someone if they have had the tanking skill to stay alive.

It'd work. It makes sense. It took about 5 seconds to think of, and it would fix "the inherent problems of reaver" without ACTUALLY TOUCHING REAVER!

Because, there is no inherent problem with reaver at all. If there is an inherent problem with reaver, every other perkline has even more "inherent problems" and this simply cannot be the case.

[glitch]

I got TL6 equip on at TL5. Why level?

corrected.
You're actually missing out on quite a bit of TL7 equip :-p

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Right, so we've finally established that the inherent problem with Reaver is you don't actually know anything about the perkline.

what i don't understand is why you're so offensive and beligerant. Don't be a dick. More people will like you.

The stun is not in the 2he line, it is in the Form of Troll enforcer line. The issue isnt reaver.

I didn't see that one in my keeper perk list.

Reaver is not behind 1he in perk damage, its not behind 2hb in perk damage, it's not behind 1hb in perk damage. It isnt behind Agent, Soldier perks either.

then why did you cite it as a reason that enfs choose a different perkline, weap type?

It isnt the perk line at all that the problem is.

The real issue is the pass/fail check on perks in general, or the alpha or nothing system that is employed.

agree, but you haven't made it clear why reaver is good yet... in fact, you've only given me reasons why it isn't good: your first reason is that it can't kill profs that you need it to without a swap. IMO, thats no good.

Why alter Reaver? We've established that Reaver is a pretty adequate perk line.

wrong. Thats in your head because you're trying to prove me wrong instead of making arguments which have good reasoning.

I'll agree for now to advance the argument (by the way, heres a skill in negotiations: make concessions to advance the discussion)

The way to alter it though would be as you suggested before, lower defensive cheecks on the weaker perks, using these to gradually beat down evade classes. Flat out ignoring their evades is stupid.

agree, no one said anythign about "flat out ignoring evades" but, I assume youre talking about a perk in the shotgun line.

But why alter Reaver? Why not just add new perks, abilities.

which new perks? ones in the reaver line? because that would be altering the reaver line, which would lead me to the conclusion that youre a hypocrite.

If youre talking about other perks, I assume you are making something up to COMPENSATE for reaver.

what new abilities? why not fix what is already in place instead of making more damn buttons to press?

Why cant enforcers simply gain +5 AR every time they are hit in combat, or hit a target? (and have it decay when out of combat, or perhaps after landing a perk) Eventually if they are in active combat their AR will end up huge. Then enfs wouldnt run away after trying to gank. Enfs would actually actively tank people. They'd spec defensively to allow them to do so to build up AR.

ok, interesting idea. I'll entertain you for a moment. I'm going to look for the place in the text where this idea is related to reaver. So..... you'er saying if enforcers had 6k AR, reaver would be ok?

Fancy! Enforcers aren't the only ones who have this perkline though.

So, youre trying to show me that you've thought up some way to make reaver a great awesome super duper perkline for enforcers?

I understand that the reaver line would have to be super duper and really awesome because enforcers already have access to some pretty OP'd specials, and why would anyone not use those if they could.. right?

Therefore enforcers would have to have another just f*cking awesome perkline because otherwise they are nerfed to hell with just 50% checking blunt perks and a SA on the offhand. Ya! obviously Enfs are frigging hurting right now. I can just see the whine threads from here. like 5 miles long and stinking like rotting cabbage... "SA doesn't have a 11s recharge! I want a 40% cap not 30% QQ, boo hoo!".


Ok, thats besides the point, but, carrying on.

So, what your'e saying is 6k AR and ENFS would be ok to use reaper?

Well, holy cow man, I guess you MIGHT just be starting to get a grasp of what it's like to play a keeper. Keepers have at TL5 about 150 less AR than enforcers. Yay. Ok, and, lets see, AR isn't on demand like it is with Challenger, yay again. Ok... so, now, it sounds like you're finally getting the feel of what it's like to be a keeper... wait though, all your arguments are based on tL7, where, um THERES NO MR!!!!!! WHOA! yet another reason why this perkline and weapon type fail so hard at Tl5.

Lets see what other brilliant insights you've had....

Give them a tool to take damage for another player and then they'd even protect people in PVP, and have a reason to do so. Eventually Mr tank enforcer who is being healed by a doc may have 6K AR after taking 50K of damage, and can turn around and dismantle someone if they have had the tanking skill to stay alive.

what? I think this belongs in another thread.

It'd work. It makes sense. It took about 5 seconds to think of, and it would fix "the inherent problems of reaver" without ACTUALLY TOUCHING REAVER!

sorry, how does "Mr tank enforcer who is being healed by a doc may have 6K AR after taking 50K of damage" fix reaver?

Are you on crack son?

Ok, I gave you a shot of respect, but you just lost it man, you're off the deep end because I don't see how in hell having an enf with 6k AR helps keepers win any fights.

Because, there is no inherent problem with reaver at all. If there is an inherent problem with reaver, every other perkline has even more "inherent problems" and this simply cannot be the case.

I don't follow your logic here. In fact, I'll tell you VERY simply your argument fails hard.

there are approximately five perklines whose weapon does not have a 100% hitting special. They are: Assault rifle, SMG, 2he, 2hb and 1hb (I'm not considering bloodbat, atm.), now, heres the problem: in the AR line, there is a evade debuff that checks 50% dodge range. The SMG line is usually paired with a weapon giving AS. In the 2hb line, I have no idea why people use this, I'm not familiar with it. In the 1hb perkline, the checks are 50%. In the 2he perkline, there is nothing remotely close to a lower than 100% check, and it screws up everybodies scene who uses it.

Therefore, reaver is the only perkline in which there is no inherent or obvious debuff which functions to make it easy to land your other perks, AND, it doesn't have any lower evade checking perks which function to make the rest of the perk chain function properly.

Are you done yet?

[agentwolve]

seems like a cool idea kink.

also noobs do you expect people to take you seriously when you pst random walls of text which are full of waffle. You couldnt even spell the fereaking perk correctly ffs and also had no clue on how the perk operated, im so confused to why you even made this thread.

And for that reason, im out.

Sorry had to has been watching dragons den lol

[McKnuckleSamwich]

seems like a cool idea kink.

also noobs do you expect people to take you seriously when you pst random walls of text which are full of waffle. You couldnt even spell the fereaking perk correctly ffs and also had no clue on how the perk operated, im so confused to why you even made this thread.

And for that reason, im out.

Sorry had to has been watching dragons den lol

troll ftl. you have anything to add besides your grudges?

I understand your confusion. you haven't read anything in the thread, so why would you know whats going on? Why don't you come back with an education. Then we can talk. Until then stay on RK1 and don't add your useless comments to my threads.

[sultryvoltron]

There's nothing wrong with Reaver. In fact, it functions quite well for a main weapon perk line with 4 nice damage perks.

The problem is that any single weapon perk line is not enough to flat out alpha someone anymore. It's the combonation of perks + more perks + specials that do the trick.

Keepers have the perks (Reaver), but they don't have the more perks (Like Enf stun perks) and they don't have the specials (Sneak Attack).

Now stop being an idiot. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Reaver perk line. There may be unresolved issues with 2he, but these are generally solved at TL7 via hotswap weapons. Again, this has nothing to do with Reaver.

[Kinkstaah]

I apologize for anyone else reading this slab. What I was saying was pretty clear. Other posters understand it perfectly it would appear, such as SultryVoltron.

then why did you cite it as a reason that enfs choose a different perkline, weap type?

I didn't say they chose a different one. I cited it as an example of why enforcers choose TWO damage perklines. This same "problem" affects enfs who are pure 1hb, pure 1he, pure 2hb, or pure 2he.

agree, but you haven't made it clear why reaver is good yet... in fact, you've only given me reasons why it isn't good: your first reason is that it can't kill profs that you need it to without a swap. IMO, thats no good.

I said it was no worse than any of the other major perk lines. Infact it is at least as good as any other ONE perkline out there. It is better than Edged Mastery, in terms of alpha power.

which new perks? ones in the reaver line? because that would be altering the reaver line, which would lead me to the conclusion that youre a hypocrite.

If youre talking about other perks, I assume you are making something up to COMPENSATE for reaver.

what new abilities? why not fix what is already in place instead of making more damn buttons to press?

Because the issue isnt the perk line. When I was theoreticising I was talking about adding other gameplay elements that arent "pure prk dmg" perks, because as far as "Perk lines" go, Reaver is still an excellent perk line.

ok, interesting idea. I'll entertain you for a moment. I'm going to look for the place in the text where this idea is related to reaver. So..... you'er saying if enforcers had 6k AR, reaver would be ok?

Fancy! Enforcers aren't the only ones who have this perkline though.

So, youre trying to show me that you've thought up some way to make reaver a great awesome super duper perkline for enforcers?

My example was simple, to show how you can make reaver an awesome tool without actually just adding damage to reaver, in a way that makes sense for enforcers. Keepers could have a completely different mechanic behind making it 'better'. It was an example on how to improve the line, without touching the line at all.

I understand that the reaver line would have to be super duper and really awesome because enforcers already have access to some pretty OP'd specials, and why would anyone not use those if they could.. right?

....
Therefore enforcers would have to have another just f*cking awesome perkline because otherwise they are nerfed to hell with just 50% checking blunt perks and a SA on the offhand. Ya! obviously Enfs are frigging hurting right now. I can just see the whine threads from here. like 5 miles long and stinking like rotting cabbage... "SA doesn't have a 11s recharge! I want a 40% cap not 30% QQ, boo hoo!".

Keepers have the same specials that Enforcers do. Sans Dimach. But once every 30 minutes can't really be argued as a balance argument.

sorry, how does "Mr tank enforcer who is being healed by a doc may have 6K AR after taking 50K of damage" fix reaver?

It makes it (or any perkline) viable, without buffing the perkline, because the issue IS NOT THE ACTUAL PERK LINE.

there are approximately five perklines whose weapon does not have a 100% hitting special. They are: Assault rifle, SMG, 2he, 2hb and 1hb (I'm not considering bloodbat, atm.), now, heres the problem: in the AR line, there is a evade debuff that checks 50% dodge range. The SMG line is usually paired with a weapon giving AS. In the 2hb line, I have no idea why people use this, I'm not familiar with it. In the 1hb perkline, the checks are 50%. In the 2he perkline, there is nothing remotely close to a lower than 100% check, and it screws up everybodies scene who uses it.

Actually only one perk is 50%, and it is not available at TL5. All the others are 100%. 1he has SA. If you know what you are doing, 2he has AIMED SHOT, as well as SA.

But if you are going to QQ about perklines, compare the actual perklines, and you will find there is no inherent problem with Reaver at all.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

@ sultry

The reason reaver doesn't work is as follows:

Because there is not a good weapon special attached to 2he weapons, much more emphasis lies on the perk line to supply damage.

Reaver damage is fine compared to 1he. (as was mentioned by kink)

Less emphasis is placed on 1he perk line because 1he weapons have SA.

1he perk line does a decent amount of damage in conjunction with SA.

2he perkline does a decent amount of damage in comparison to 1he perkline.

Therefore, 2he perkline doesn't do enough damage due to 2he not having a good special.

****Argument closed****

Now, the other problem with reaver is as follows:

2he weapons don't have a 100% hitting special.
perklines with a 100% hitting special are often not needed to kill evaders.
perklines without a 100% hitting special usually are associated with a debuff.
the debuffs usually check less than 100% evades in order to land, thereby making the target more receptive to incoming perks.
Reaver has no such evade debuffs, which hurt enforcers and keepers. Therefore, 2he is at best a mediocre choice if any of your opponents are evaders.

****argument closed****

[Kinkstaah]

The reason reaver doesn't work is as follows:

Because there is not a good weapon special attached to 2he weapons, much more emphasis lies on the perk line to supply damage.

No, you can swap. 1he + SA is about equal to 2he damage. [b]AT TITLE LEVEL SEVEN[b], when you have the entire perk line.

PLUS you can ALSO add SA, via way of a SOFC.

Now, the other problem with reaver is as follows:
2he weapons don't have a 100% hitting special, unless you swap, which all high end PVP'ers preferring to use a 2h weapon will do.[/quote]

Wait. I guess there's no issue.
I guess there's no inherent problem with Reaver at all. Perhaps you should level up, and actually use the full line?

[sultryvoltron]

@ sultry

The reason reaver doesn't work is as follows:

Because there is not a good weapon special attached to 2he weapons, much more emphasis lies on the perk line to supply damage.

Reaver damage is fine compared to 1he. (as was mentioned by kink)

Less emphasis is placed on 1he perk line because 1he weapons have SA.

1he perk line does a decent amount of damage in conjunction with SA.

2he perkline does a decent amount of damage in comparison to 1he perkline.

Therefore, 2he perkline doesn't do enough damage due to 2he not having a good special.

All weapon lines are not created equal.

With incoming balancing changes, maybe you should push for good ME support to make it the PvP Keeper weapon of choice. Fact is, Reaver is fine, and when you have full access to Reaver it works even better than the super nerfed version that you're using. The problem is not with the perks. The problem is with the weapons, and just basic stupid mechanics that make profs not make sense in this game.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

I don't agree. Just because we might be getting a ME line doesn't mean reaver should be such a pig.

Besides, I haven't heard one thing other than "keepers might be getting an ME weap" yay, except, wth does that mean?

[rapp3d]

I got TL7 equip on at TL5. Why level?

ye its same at having tl7 so nvm u rite

[NoGoal]

No, you can swap. 1he + SA is about equal to 2he damage. [b]AT TITLE LEVEL SEVEN[b], when you have the entire perk line.

This is not true in most situations atm but w/e. Now let's see numbers from perk documentation with 3000 skill!

Reaver (200 2he)
Cleave: 1429 - 4655 28s
Transfix: 3550 - 8594 60s
Pain Lance: 2207 - 4904 60s + 3600 over 15s
Slice and Dice: 1810 - 4022 x2 40s
Total: 14406 - 29797

Edged Mastery (200 1he 50 fast attack)
Quick Cut: 1367 - 4539 25s
Flay: 3293 - 8115 60s
Flurry of Cuts 3410 - 8332 45s (90% def check)
Ribbon Flesh 3638 - 8756 50s (90% def check)
Total: 11708 - 29742

No comment.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

I never asked for more dmg out of reaver, kink, I only asked that the first 3 perks got a lower check, and SnD with a slightly higher.

i've never asked for more damage... I only want the perks available to me to land on the profs I need it to.

I really don't think thats too much to ask. In reality, thats all you're asking for as well.

While 6K AR from being whacked by an enforcer is all fine and dandy for enforcers, it doesn't help keepers. All I'm asking for is a possible check revision, so that the perks that we have avalable, land on profs who require more damage to kill, but, won't land on profs who are well known to be using low HP setups, and can't afford to hit with a full SL perk alpha.

Thanks nogoal, you've shown us that there is virtually no difference in the damage of reaver and 1he, except 1he gets 50 more AR in fast attack, and the last two perks for 1he which get a 90% check, which happen to be the hardest hitting, I might add, which throws the weighted checks balance to the wind, ... while reaver gets none of those fancy tricks.


gawd bless advies and enforcers. they must just be in heaven now with all their fancy toys.

[lostlife]

I don't agree. Just because we might be getting a ME line doesn't mean reaver should be such a pig.

Besides, I haven't heard one thing other than "keepers might be getting an ME weap" yay, except, wth does that mean?

could do what 2he+1he enfos do and swap so that you have a stronger alpha (2he+ME swap, with dusk of xan having SA, or any other ME wep for just the perks)

lets not forget that wrath is being reworked/extended and will most likely be added to your alpha

[McKnuckleSamwich]

could do what 2he+1he enfos do and swap so that you have a stronger alpha (2he+ME swap, with dusk of xan having SA, or any other ME wep for just the perks)

lets not forget that wrath is being reworked/extended and will most likely be added to your alpha

yea, if wrath gets a big enough boost, keepers could be ok.

The main prob with wrath is that it's got the same problem as reaver, which is a 100% check.

like, sure, against solds and docs, thats great, but we really need wrath to land on advys and MA's... and, I'm skeptical of FC's ability to implement this in a way that is balanced and productive at the same time. To be fair, it's no easy feat.

If wrath missed until an advy was hit with another perk, say, one from the HM line, which incidentally also lowered teh check and raised the damage of wrath by like 50%, it would be cool.

Like: wrath checks 100%, unless target is running mark of the XXX, in which case it only checks 60% and does 50% more damage, so, not only does the target have -160 evades or whatever, the wrath item checks (evades-160)*0.6. Which means it might even function with DOF.

Which of course wouldn't be bad, since, it only works once every 15 seconds, and does pathetic damage anyway, and, the HM perk only lasts a minute. But, imo, having these cross effective perks/damage type things is sooo super fun... it makes you really want to plan your attack very carefully.