The inherent problem with Reaper

[McKnuckleSamwich]

we all know reaper is a fairly good perkline... right?

With mongo rage it seems to do some decent dmg. But, what about without?

At TL7 it offers some good hard hitting perks, and paired with (mutate for enf, and (if anyone knows, please tell me) for keeper) it makes for a solid perk alpha.

The problem with reaper is that anyone using reaper is using a 2he weapon.

The plot thickens!

So, whats wrong with 2he you ask? Well, first we must observe the specials.

Brawl
Fast attack
Dimach

Now, these are a very nice set of PVM specials. I hold no grudges.

But, lets, for the sake of comparison, observe what other specials may be available for our trusty enforcer.

If an enforcer choses, he can use 1he, or 1he combined with 1hb. These are both very effective choices, because, there is an extra special. Observe the specials of 1he:

brawl
Fast attack
dimach
SNEAK ATTACK

Whoa! thats cool! 1he gets a nifty special! what does it do? well, it turns out this special is one of the most powerful in game. It actually ALWAYS hits, and furthermore, with enough skill, it can actually CAP damage! Every 40 seconds, no less. Not only does it always hit, but, because it always hits, it nearly alleviates perk dependancy. Which, in itself is remarkable.

Well, you say, what does that have to do with reaper? Well, I'll tell you.

Reaper, by design, MUST make up for the loss of (arguably) the 2nd or 3rd MOST POWERFUL special that is available by other weapon choices. Wait though! a keeper doesn't have any weapon choices.... they are 2he through and through! yes, this is a problem, and I believe it's been duely noted. (melee energy apparently somewhere on the horizon.)

The problem, however, is that reaper perks do not counter the EXTREMELY versatile and powerful sneak attack that is available via the base specials available by 1he users.

This is evident by the number of toons equipped with a 2he weapon. I would venture, that ONLY a very very small minority of people who have the choice to use 2he actually do.

At TL5, for example, you can not find an enforcer who "dabbles" in PVP who would use 2he. Why not? Because it is a death wish.

Yet, keepers are forced into 2he, so, the PROBLEM with reaper is that it is weak perk line that does not in ANY WAY balance the definitive and extremely overpowered sneak attack at these levels.

To FC: Please review reaper, and make it give significantly higher AR modifiers, and 1 more hard hitting damage perk at TL5. Thanks. Oh, and try to condense blessing or something so there are actually enough perks to put some into the line.

[Hacre]

Do you mean Reaver?

If you mean Reaver, at TL7 -on its own- which is where it's at for Keepers, it's pretty poor. Even my NT has enough HP to hold out against a Reaver alpha. I'm not sure if Enfos get any other damage perks to go with it or stuns to time it better.

And the current proposal from FC is to nerf it! Yay! \o/

[Kopecz]

2hb is in the same boat as 2he except for Seismic Smash, which I think will deal more dmg post-Reaver nerf. Every Bone Crusher perk special hits for less currently that Reaver perks. Fortunately Enforcers can perk into Brawler, Form of Troll, or Manners of Mongo for stuns to time the alphas better.

Maybe Keepers should be asking for access to Brawler?

[Shrubberyman]

The problem with reaper is that anyone using reaper is using a 2he weapon.

The plot thickens!

So, whats wrong with 2he you ask? Well, first we must observe the specials.

Brawl
Fast attack
Dimach

If I understand it well, you're speaking about Reaper. If such is the case, you're wrong, the specials usually attached to Reaper users are :

Browl
Fat Attack
Die Marc

There, hope it helped

[Flyingengi]

Dude...let's look at Sneak Attack for a minute.

What professions are designed to use SA currently? That would be Shade, Advy, and Enforcer.

Now let's analyze these professions and why they get Sneak Attack.

Shade: The shade is a very sneaky profession that attacks from the shadows when it's opponent isn't looking. Therefore, it makes perfect sense that the shade would use SNEAK attack.

Advy: The adventurer is a jack of all trades. It also has the ability to stalk it's prey and hide in the bushes and trees and attack at the right time. Therefore, it makes perfect sense that the advy would use SNEAK attack.

Enforcer: They just got lucky and use the same weapon line that Advys do and can share the special attack with them, as well as anybody else who wishes to equip 1he weapons (including keepers).

Keeper: Keeper is not a master of 1he weapons so they cannot steal the attack from Advys very well. Also, there is NOTHING sneaky about a big fat keeper running through the middle of the playfield swinging around a huge sword. So why in the world do you think that you should be permitted to use this special?

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Dude...let's look at Sneak Attack for a minute.

What professions are designed to use SA currently? That would be Shade, Advy, and Enforcer.

Now let's analyze these professions and why they get Sneak Attack.

Shade: The shade is a very sneaky profession that attacks from the shadows when it's opponent isn't looking. Therefore, it makes perfect sense that the shade would use SNEAK attack.

Advy: The adventurer is a jack of all trades. It also has the ability to stalk it's prey and hide in the bushes and trees and attack at the right time. Therefore, it makes perfect sense that the advy would use SNEAK attack.

Enforcer: They just got lucky and use the same weapon line that Advys do and can share the special attack with them, as well as anybody else who wishes to equip 1he weapons (including keepers).

Keeper: Keeper is not a master of 1he weapons so they cannot steal the attack from Advys very well. Also, there is NOTHING sneaky about a big fat keeper running through the middle of the playfield swinging around a huge sword. So why in the world do you think that you should be permitted to use this special?

where did I say that in this thread? The point of this thread is to point out the deficiencies of the reaver line when compared to the benefits of other modes of damage available to other classes, and why no one in their right mind uses it when they don't have to.

There are 0 enforcers using reaver at TL5. why?

[Marinegent]

Keepers, at least at TL7, have fantastic defensive power. And lack offensively..

I'd be happy with giving keepers/enfs/whatever another perk in the reaver line (usable by lower levels, scales with more perks in reaver line) but in exchange, i'd like to see some of the defensive power they have dropped a little.

Not substantially, just a little to merit the improvement. At least as it stands, even keepers I can perk on my agent (all of them..) who don't use coon, still has enough to out-last all my perks, 2 AS (time it takes to get off all perks) and then some 1 or two more AS.

Pretty strong defense. But the offense is laughable for sure. So, bump the offense, trade some defense.

/thread

[McKnuckleSamwich]

imo it was always wrath/fury that was supposed to provide the extra advantage to the specials inherent in weapon choices.

Originally, it was only fast attack and wrath/fury, but seriously... thats just brutal.

add brawl, for an extra attack that still fails 75% of the time, and you've got a weak offensive prof.

All else being equal, if you think that SA does on average 3k dmg, and lands every 40 seconds, then wrath should, on average, hit for about 1.1k and land 100% of the time as well.

Honestly, if wrath had a 50% check, I'd say keepers would be reasonably balanced.

I doubt you'd ever EVER see a TL5 enforcer using 2he though.

The reality is though, is if 2HE and reaver is balanced, you'd see enforcers using it at all levels. As it stands, currently, the benefits to 1HE far far far far far far far far far far far far outweight it. Did you get that?

So, maybe it's not 2he, maybe it's SSoS and SoW/SoC and SA that are OP'd?

[sultryvoltron]

If I understand it well, you're speaking about Reaper. If such is the case, you're wrong, the specials usually attached to Reaper users are :

Browl
Fat Attack
Die Marc

There, hope it helped

Don't forget the obvious "Fear" ability attached to Reaper.

[Kinkstaah]

Explain to me why you cannot use SA with 2he, via a 0s swap weapon known as the SOFC.

Or the supernova.

Saying 2he has no access to these specials is incorrect.

[NoGoal]

1he can swap to supernova too..

But even if you stick to perk lines, in the documentation PDFs, 1he is superior to 2he. More damage, lower def checks and + Fast Attack skill. It doesn't really make sense unless keepers get other damage sources which is quite unclear atm. So wait and see or whine ..

[Marinegent]

Explain to me why you cannot use SA with 2he, via a 0s swap weapon known as the SOFC.

Or the supernova.

Saying 2he has no access to these specials is incorrect.

You *Could* swap, but the inherent problem with most twinks is that you cannot self your (twinked) weapons, therefore effectively shutting down your ability to do high regular damage.

Now what's smart about this again?

[Moonbolt]

well the only reason 1he is as good as it is, is the fact that advs have it as a min skill.
1hb is considerably weaker then 1he in the new perk documents.
2hb is worse off then reaper since it only has 3 attack perks and not 4 as reaper does.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

well the only reason 1he is as good as it is, is the fact that advs have it as a min skill.
1hb is considerably weaker then 1he in the new perk documents.
2hb is worse off then reaper since it only has 3 attack perks and not 4 as reaper does.

I agree about 2hb.

I haven't done any specific research, but, I'd really like to see balance across all weapon lines. I don't mean that every weapon should have every special and all perks are cookie cutter, but, what I do mean, is that IF 2he is the *only* weapon skill for a prof, it should be accompanied by an average or better than average perk line, so as not to discourage people from choosing that prof.

As it stands, due to the lack of SA, 2he is a far weaker choice than 1he, or any combination including SA such as 1he/1hb.

As our keeper professionals have pointed out, and I have, keepers lack the perks to really invest in weapon lines. Therefore, just adding another perkline such as a revamped SS line still makes no sense, since investing in yet another perkline would really, badly place us at a significant disadvantage defensively.

Being without a primary healing line, and/or a primary defence stuch as coccoon is akin to asking an advy or MA to unperk acrobat. Would they do it? It's highly unlikely. Therefore, The solution MUST lie in changing the core concept of reaver, OR, changing the core concept of wrath/fury.

IMO, either would do, but, since it is so overwhelmingly obvious that the reaver perkline and weapon specials are DEEPLY flawed prior to TL7 and even at TL7 without Mongo rage, it might be worth considering a full revamp on the line to lower the perk checks on cleave (75%), transfix (85%+2s stun), pain lance (95%) slice'n'dice (100%)

Which would, in effect provide much needed perk damage against profs who inherently have the greatest advantage over an attacker without SA: evade profs.

This would, legitimately, reduce the percieved and inherent weakness of the perk line, it would reduce the obvious failing of the PVM aspect-applied-to-PVP of the 2HE weapon line, and provide the vastly underpowered offense of the keeper with slightly more ability to play outside the cookie cutter setup, of Mongo rage Atrox keeper.

THE OTHER ADVANTAGE is that enforcers would actually have a reason to try 2HE. remarkably.

[crattey]

IF 2he is the *only* weapon skill for a prof, it should be accompanied by an average or better than average perk line

Again, your entire thread comes down to: make my profession better than everyone else.

How do you rhyme 'balance' with 'better than average'?

[Mekh]

Again, your entire thread comes down to: make my profession better than everyone else.

How do you rhyme 'balance' with 'better than average'?

He's speaking of one single perk line that should be "Better than average" perk lines...
Which could be perfectly balanced by a "Worse than average" weapon option.... Namely 2he.


{removed by Anarrina}

[coggins]

I had a 2he Enfo at tl5 that worked rather nicely, had around a 2:1 duel ratio in my favour and didnt feel i was too low on damage that needed rebalancing and sneak attack added. It just took quite awhile to get it right and how i wanted it. Seems i was the first tl5 2he pvp enfo :O

[Mekh]

I had a 2he Enfo at tl5 that worked rather nicely, had around a 2:1 duel ratio in my favour and didnt feel i was too low on damage that needed rebalancing and sneak attack added. It just took quite awhile to get it right and how i wanted it. Seems i was the first tl5 2he pvp enfo :O

I think Enfo's have more AR available than keepers do... Not sure though.

[Hacre]

crattey seems to be forgetting that when Keepers could kill Advies, MAs and Fixers were doing just fine, including against Keepers, there was no OMG KEEPER RAPORD ME from MAs or Fixers. Fights were closer between MAs and Keepers, Fixers usually came out on top.

Advies do not have the same defences or level of evades as MAs/Fixers, the base amount is much much lower.

[lostlife]

i noticed how no one mention that wrath/fury are being reworked, this could be the offensive push that keepers need. also, keepers are the only prof locked into 2he (will probobly get melee energy too, and beast xan swords have SA)