Then look at your setup because I've watched end game Traders duel Agents and end up losing after landing divest, because they couldn't land plunder.Originally Posted by Marinegent
Medium/lower AR professions are usually the ones screwed by GTH more than drains, their AR isn't uber high because they have other tools to back it up, AS or casted stuff. As stated, GTH is being looked at.
GTH being OP isn't a floodgate to send Traders back to the SL days of gimpness.
Member of Spartans
Hacre/Solitus/Keeper/220/29/70 - Ninpopotamus/Solitus/NT/220/30/70 - Charmming/Opifex/Crat/220/30/70
Genius at work.
This is probably the discussion that has been done to death the most on these forums but I'll add my thoughts to it again.
Traders basic or omni-directional defense is relatively low or extremely low compared to other professions. Traders damage-output is relatively low or extremely low compared to other professions. Our ability to mess people up with drains, 1 person at a time, is the one thing that counters those drawbacks. It's the one thing that makes trader worth it. Turning the opponent into a withered shell of their former self is what we are designed to do. What makes trader interesting to play instead of OP is that we can only do this to 1 target at a time. Our "flanks" are wide open and so we constantly have to look over our shoulder because if you stand still in one spot for too long or you react to something 1 second to late, you can easily die.
This is what makes trader interesting to play.
The notion of nerfing traders debuffing abilities to the point where most 1 vs 1 fights are difficult to survive, means that we have nothing to counter the drawbacks of being a trader.
If your suggestion is to nerf debuffs anyway and then perhaps give the trader more defense to compensate, then the trader will be a completely different animal. I'd rather play a fixer or crat or MP if that were to happen.
As I have said before, the trader profession is very different to other professions and there's nothing wrong with having a profession that has powerful debuffs as long as you consider the drawbacks to being a trader. This is simply a different kind of balance. It's similar to the discussion of soldiers defense being OP in PvP. I don't think it is because there are so many drawbacks to being a soldier as well. It all evens out in the end.
I'd rather have professions be unique and distinctly different from each other, bringing unique abilities to the battlefield.. rather than having all professions have the same level of defense, same level of offense and so on.
Different is good.
PS: Will drains have to be toned down a bit? I have no idea. Right now, on live servers, at 220, I don't think so. Perhaps after these profession changes then? Maybe.. I don't know because I don't know what all these changes will be and what they will do to PvP in AO. I have to wait until all that happens before I can comment.
Last edited by Wrangeline; Jan 25th, 2010 at 23:46:14.
Veteran of Equilibrium
Spot on. It goes against my complaints about GTH, but as an NT if I catch a Trader fighting someone else already, especially if their target is a caster, that Trader is dead meat.
Same goes for when my Keeper catches one. Most vulnerable part of a Trader is the rear.
Member of Spartans
Hacre/Solitus/Keeper/220/29/70 - Ninpopotamus/Solitus/NT/220/30/70 - Charmming/Opifex/Crat/220/30/70
Genius at work.
Traders get ridiculous when you throw in YEEIYF and NBD, the /**** power of GTH aside. Before that they're still fine. Not to mention their prof HH@B and the +Nano effects for the trader from GTH. It actually gives them a quite formidible multi-target defense. I mean, it's pretty damn hard to drop a Trader who already has GTH running on someone, has YEEIYF up on them and throws up NBD when they see you coming. Because those are defenses that the Trader doesn't have to run on you, they could very well run them on someone else.
That's my take on it, as I don't care for duels at all and that seems what most people are mad about.
Eh... as a MA, when divest lands, I can't really heal, can't hit, can't perk, and the trader has 11s AS, easy shot etc etc, makes semi quick work of me, nothing I can really do after that drain lands but try to run really but meh. Only thing I can prob do is keep on my bow and try to AS, which is futile really since it won't do much.
What I really hate though, is that proc ugh.
Completely agree.
[[ RYUAHN | 220/21 Opifex Trader
== Proud Member of Core ==
[[ ALASTROPHE | 220/15 Solitus Martial-Artist
Well MAs do need some AR help. My NT can stop MAs perking me just from landing Dazzle, -300 AR. Me, an NT. ~2900ish evade-clsc defence including aad.
Surely it's not that huge a deal to wait 15s before ploughing an alpha into the Trader? Since you brought up NBD.
Member of Spartans
Hacre/Solitus/Keeper/220/29/70 - Ninpopotamus/Solitus/NT/220/30/70 - Charmming/Opifex/Crat/220/30/70
Genius at work.
Heh 15 sec is a looooonng time vs a trader. If that trader isn't dead in the first 3-7 seconds don't expect any sort of alpha will work after you get double drained and CP'd, unless you have MR I suppose.
15 seconds may be all your team mate has. It's not all about kills all the time. Then by the time the Trader realizes you're there you've got drains incoming.
In his scenario the Trader was fighting someone else. You can always plough damage in, NBD's damage conversion isn't wonderful.
Member of Spartans
Hacre/Solitus/Keeper/220/29/70 - Ninpopotamus/Solitus/NT/220/30/70 - Charmming/Opifex/Crat/220/30/70
Genius at work.
Ohh fighting someone else then yeah it's not that bad when they fighting someone else, you can even use your virus scanners when you get drained
Point is, Traders are far from being an instant kill against 2 people. I think generally people don't really mind ending up a quivering wreck, but are just irritated with how quickly they end up that way. It's similar to the old stun proc hate. Nobody is really mad about being stunned, but don't really like sitting back watching their characters die being unable to change the outcome. For fights against Traders, the fight is completely determined rather quickly (4 seconds, no counters. 8 seconds one counter. Traders are more often than not pre-drained on BS) and is irreversible.
Lets take this point by point.
1. NBD converts a *portion* of incoming damage to nanopool (65% in the case of Soli/Opi/Atrox, 70% in the case of nanomage), while some portion still lands on the trader (35% for soli, 30% for nanomage). Further, this redirected damage is not at a 1:1 ratio, so 1 point of nano is not equivalent to 1 point of absorbed damage. Compare that vs say, bio cocoon which has no such percentage mechanic.
2. You overestimate the efficacy of the positive buff on GTH in maintaining NBD. The fact is, the positive buff doesn't keep NBD completely effective while you're getting damage thrown at you, it helps give you *just* enough nano to still be able to cast necessary drains/heals/roots/calms after damage has killed your nanopool and you've slipped into nanobot depletion.
The self benefit from gth is 2000 nano every _5_ seconds and 1000 nanodelta if the target gth'd was an nt.
The self benefit from gth is 750 nano every _5_ seconds and 500 nanodelta for any other target, and the buff is lost once the target dies.
Presumably the buff was intended to also be lost when a gth'd nt target dies, but presently it does not so the trader keeps the buff for the full 1 minute (incidentally also preventing them from using gth on another target in that time period).
We all can agree the offensive aspect of GTH is too much in its current state, so we don't need to go there.
Combine that with the fact that while NBD can help a trader survive one alpha, the trader is also going to be out of nano, hurting, and living off that gth buff enabling them to keep casting their tools in the fight, not to mention down a fair portion of HP from damage that was not mitigated to begin with.
Not every trader has the prof hhab, and those that do can attest that at best it's a bit more damage mitigation of used during NBD, a chance to cast gth/yeeiyf if it couldn't be landed before nanobot depletion, or a chance to gth a trader who gth'd you first (which can lead into some amusing "ping pong" gth matches in themselves), plus it can only be used once every 10 minutes.
3. YEEIYF is the same overall amount of healing as bio regrowth, except it is a slower tick, taking a full minute to achieve the same healing total as bio regrowth does in 30 seconds, _if_ (and only if) the person receiving the buff is level 220. For the uninitiated that would be 500hp every 2 seconds for a minute on YEEIYF vs 500hp every second for 30 seconds on regrowth.
The small nano hot is admittedly useful in low nano situations as well, such as nanobot depletion, but here we're talking about 250 nano every 2 seconds _if_ the person receiving the buff is 220, mainly useful for keeping the ability to cast, as opposed to omg bolstering the hell out of NBD.
Add into that the fact that if a trader is casting haggler on top of that, it means they're not casting debuffs, which means targets are not getting drained, and vice versa if they're casting drains, they're not casting haggler.
Lusthorne - 220 Keeper | Isellthings - 220 Trader - PvP-Config
Soupknotsie - 220 Doctor | Blabberus - 220 Crat
and many more
Boost outdoor sk in Pen/Inf or adjust missions for mixed factions
A different approach to GTHIf you felt that I was implying that you are an idiot, it's probably because you are in fact, an idiot.
I know how NBD works. I also know that pre-GTH/HH@B/YEEIYF it was one of the most garbage nanos in game. Now it's actually quite useful since Traders have tools to sustain their nanopool alot more. All of these scenarios that get thrown out are subjective at best, but they generally illustrate a good point. More often than not, Traders have the tools they need to save their lives. Most Traders probably notice dying alot to multiple people because they get ganged up on in BS almost immediately after Docs because of how badly they can sway a battle.
So you're an Agent who wants to kill a Trader. You make sure you've got a decent AR setup and put on a scope.
1. Alfa Tradzor
You can't alpha the trader with CS/champion perks.
You can't land rifle perks without landing BE.
You can't land rifle perks regardless if the trader has CP running, or lands a drain/drain proc on you, or has Def HUD3, or has a crat aura, etc.
Even if you land all your perks, with RRFE he'll still tank them and be able to heal up. While they execute, if you or someone else is in range, he can get his defenses up.
If he's NM, he doesn't die. If he uses MotR or a FM stim, he can SS while you're facerolling perks. If he's a decent PvPer, he can drain you while CS is executing.
2. OMG DeeDee Tradzor
YEEIYF, healdelta, and single heals easily beat out Agent damage once the Agent is drained or CPed. NBG, RRFE, slow Agent perks, and awful Agent regulars keep the Trader in gravy while he does that.
You won't perk after any drain, and you won't be able to root, deroot, or heal after GTH. In this section your damage goes from "close" to "lawl".
3. Outlast Tradzor
Lol.
4. Run From Tradzor
If he's CPed, which he has by now, you can't land snare perks. If he's also GTH/YEEIYFed you, you can't counterroot or deroot.
When you, without any greenies around, in an AR setup, catch a non-NM Trader alone, un-CPed, without RRFE, without SS/MotR/HH@B up, and you land BE first try and get lucky, you win.
Balance! *cymbals*
Spot on..
Leave "Marinegent" AScar - 220/23/65 Atrox Agent
Wakeup "Marinesold" Screaming - 220/30/70 Nanomage Soldier
"Moonmarin" - 220/30/80 Solitus Martial Artist
"Marinekeep" - 215/18/4x Atrox Keeper
Trader vulnerability to multiple attackers is not an excuse for a completely overeffective ability in single encounters. Besides traders not even being the most vulnerable toons against multiple attackers, I still believe they need some better abilities to deal with additional players, however this mindset with apparently all 220 traders that -350 AR is not very much is insulting.
I can get an enforcer up to about 3270 AR in a top setup, that does not include an LE proc because over a year of doing BS my proc was up once when I ran into a trader. That being said, the divest lands on about 3200 NR 4/5 tries, and I am sure that often times the trader was pre-drained. 3270-350=2920. After one drain an AR setup enforcer would be at the point where his perks fall into the random chance of landing range, and are at the lower end.
Even without including your prof HHaB, the spec blocker wen wen my level 1 even has, YEEIF, Shutdown (you will never perk me even with MR) Skills, and corporate lines possibly already boosting def, does it seem fair that a profession that can only kill with perks is left not only without any casting after a single drain, but a 25% chance at best to land any perks on a trader? Honestly, yes, it is very fair. The issue, however, is that for ***3 minutes*** the enforcer is totally screwed, and that is far too long.
A trader should be able to drain even an enforcer easily, and you should have a chance to do serious damage to an enforcer and make him use his survival toolset. However, some point in that fight, the enforcer and any other prof should have a chance to fight back. At this point you should be using your own survival tools to actually fight a now much weaker player, or get away if you know you will not make it.
Wait a second... did you just say... why yes you did... traders notice dying a lot to multiple people... ya know, that sounds a lot like... TEAM PVP! Imagine that. So much for saving their lives.
All these subjective scenarios prove is that people who die to a trader can only envision the worst possible scenarios for themselves because omg a trader killed them or contributed to their death and is therefore OP.
Similarly any trader will point out the many scenarios in which their supposedly OP and easy to land nanos (gth/br excluded from the OP remark) are not sufficient to prevent their deaths.
I also love this myth that traders are the be all and end all of 1v1 pvp, neverminding the fact that pvp will never be balanced around 1v1.
Let me break down some facts for you and others,
The average 220 trader has 2100-2400ar before drains. I have ~2600 before drains, using full on endgame gear with pvp in mind (alpha symbs, css, etc) plus towers. That means that in almost every case, a trader usually needs to have drains up to have the ar to perk someone, let alone kill them (with few exceptions, ie; greenies and docs).
Most pvpers do not spend time combing through their combat logs to see all the times they countered a nano, they only pay attention to it landing, while the trader on the other side witnesses the many occasions where various nanos get countered, leading to skewed generalizations like the many people who apparently think a trader is going to land every debuff they cast every time with ease on every player.
Hell, I often team up with an NT that uses cb specifically *to* land drains, though of course the targets don't always pay attention to the cb, they just notice that omg a trader drained me.
One drain does not screw up every profession. For those that take advantage of MR, they can receive additional comfort in knowing that it takes 3 drains to barely negate the effect of MR. For others that don't/can't take advantage of MR, if one drain messes you up, and you're primary power isn't in casting or pets, you should probably evaluate your gear and adjust accordingly.
If you're not surprising a trader, going 1v1 is often a stupid idea. A trader noticing you is more likely to have started focusing their attention on debuffing you to save their own skin and enable them to fight you, if you team up, you are far more likely to succeed. For that matter, we often team with players beneficial to us, specifically to make us harder to kill. Stop trying to be Rambo and bring some friends to the fight.
Yeeiyf/gth/nbd do not equal impossible to kill trader. NBD usually wipes out our entire pool within the first 10k damage of an alpha being thrown at us, and it's not even a complete absorb, so we're still feeling a portion of that. Plus if we're receiving that damage load, that means the attacker isn't drained enough to make them miss. NBD was, and is, an "Ohcrap" button.
If we have to heal on top of that, it means we're not draining the target to make them miss, and if we are draining, it means we're more vulnerable to continued attack, especially if drains get countered. GTH/Yeeiyf may be spammable, but ya sure can't spam anything with no nanopool left if ya had to pop NBD in an emergency.
If a trader has time to work on you, your offensive ability is going to be compromised. YOUR offense. You, specifically. Not the people around you, just you. Drains mean that a traders defense against YOU specifically will be much improved. The exception to this rule is if a trader casts CP, due to the 300aad buff they get during the 30second duration, which of course means they're not getting additional AR from IS, as CP/IS do not stack.
Traders can boost their power a fair bit if they have time to work, but aside from 2 nanos (GTH/BR), at TL7 their tools are certainly not overpowered. I will however grant that there is some room for discussion regarding accessible debuffs, or at least total possible debuffs numbers, at lower TL's.
Lusthorne - 220 Keeper | Isellthings - 220 Trader - PvP-Config
Soupknotsie - 220 Doctor | Blabberus - 220 Crat
and many more
Boost outdoor sk in Pen/Inf or adjust missions for mixed factions
A different approach to GTHIf you felt that I was implying that you are an idiot, it's probably because you are in fact, an idiot.
maybe drains should be considered an active and unique link between trader and target.
ie. cast the same drain on target 2 and the same drain running on target 1 is cancelled.
Shade AAO/AAD debuffs are being shortened to 15 seconds in pvp, with a 40 second recharge until the drain can be used again.
I had a quick chat with means in game, and he said to expect similar treatment to a lot of debuffs.
I do actually pay attention to how much times I counter divest and its actually not very often I do counter it (from a non gimp trader obviously) your nanoskills are very high predrained and divest has a 90% check as well so it does make sense that it lands often. I think your pm/ts is about 2800 or so when you drain up? Only prof that would reliably counter that is enfs I imagine.
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