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Thread: Summary of Profession Rebalancing: Round 1

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by reids View Post
    Just so we don't have to keep looking everywhere, here's all the professionals have said regarding the latest batch of balancing

    Adventurer

    Morphs: Create greater distinction between morph lines & enhance benefits for being morphed. Morphs will not see benefits boosted past Wolf form - Instead, greater distinction between the functionality of the differing morphed forms, including enhancing the nano-based toolset for morphs.

    Un-morphs: Create differing advantages for Adventurers who choose *not* to use morphs.

    Heals: Increased nano cost. Goals are to place Adventurer in second place for amount of healing output, but via sacrificing damage (potentially via a morph line [tree morph?]).

    Damage Type Modifiers: Looking into extending the functionality of the Adventurer's damage-changing toolset across multiple level ranges.

    Towers: Create diversity in Advy tower pets by including multiple functionality based on currently used morph (IE: Casting a tower under Wolf morph will create a tower with different effects than casting a tower while under Pit Lizard, or while unmorphed).

    Calms: Duration decreased, faster casting, increased functionality in Shadowlands (goes for all professions).
    I would like the following to be considered for Adventurers:

    Make the toon visual size while morphed much much smaller. I know many adventurers, myself included, that hate being morphed in missions or dungeons as I keep getting my head stuck in walls or can't see to target the correct mob, etc. Unfortunately I need the morph to benefit from dmg buff, etc.

    Second, make the weird/improved nano calms for Adventurers actually work as an area calm like they are supposed to.

    Colrain

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Klod9001 View Post
    Exactly. Choices are stupid anyways. I mean, why shouldn't we kill the unique part of this game.
    Please can you explain how this is relevant to the current discussion?
    Thor Mastablasta Hammersmith - Level 220, AI 30, LE 70 Clan Atrox Nano Technician - Setup
    The Red Brotherhood

    I'm a Nano-Technician, don't ever expect me to fight unbuffed, alone or fair.

    Means: about f'ing time :P
    Satenia: heresy <3
    Znore: Mastablasta <3
    Kinkstaah: I have agro from many mobs ;(
    Madarab: we are aoe class, we are supose to use pistols
    Marxgorm: the NT toolset does not fit into my raiding tactics

  3. #23
    Personally I am getting a little tired of all the whining and complaining on the forums for the professions. Most of it distills to make my profession better and nerf everyone else so I can kill them easier because of the time and credits spent on the toon. Well, news flash time, hours and credits spent do not automatically result in a good toon or one capable of dealing with all professions equally.

    Some suggestions to aid in the balancing:
    1) Eliminate all damage caps except the limit on the damage as a percentage of the target toon's health. The rest are a waste of time and programming resources and cause imbalance in the game.
    2) Either eliminate all level locks on nanos or give them all a target lock the same as the level lock. It makes no sense to be unable to cast a nano on oneself while being able to get it from another toon.
    3) looks seriously at the balance over the life of the toon. Most of the focus is on end game. Most of the fixes for end game "problems" will seriously impact a leveling toon.

    Then look for imbalances and establish pvp nanos to mitigate instead of gimping/nerfing. Three examples:
    a) if the heal delta for cocoon professions is a problem in pvp (not sure it would be any longer if damage caps are gone) then create a pvp nano that reduces the target heal delta by a large number e.g.200 points with a duration equal to the duration of bio-cocoon. Fixes the perceived problem in pvp without other impacts on the game.
    b) eliminate all the nerfing on roots and snares. Who cares anyway. Give all professions a self only "insta-wipe" pvp nano that immediately removes all roots and snares. It could operate similar to the fixer nano for dots and doc debufs.
    c) evades are another topic in a lot of the forums. Again instead of the nerfing, caps, etc. that have been done (get rid of them). Give all professions a hostile pvp nano that reduces target evades by some very large number, say 1500 points, Problem solved without other impacts on the game.

    This approach can also be used if the balance problem is only with a single profession being too weak or too strong (give a pvp nano that either buffs the weak or a counter available to all if one profession is too strong). This could also be tailored to a specific size range (nano only works for certain levels - minimum and maximum range) to avoid the problems associated with leveling, research, alien levels, etc.

    The game, for the most part, isn't broken and not really dramatically out of balance. Please don't destroy what is good to fix problems that may not be real.

    And one last item. Stay focused on the big problems. Everything doesn't have to be perfectly balanced. I will guarentee that people will figure out ways of beating whatever you do to balance. Just focus on the big items please. Most of the stuff on the forums seems to be nit noise.
    Last edited by Almonora; Jan 25th, 2010 at 01:12:36.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Almonora View Post
    Some suggestions to aid in the balancing:
    1) Eliminate all damage caps except the limit on the damage as a percentage of the target toon's health. The rest are a waste of time and programming resources and cause imbalance in the game.
    2) Either eliminate all level locks on nanos or give them all a target lock the same as the level lock. It makes no sense to be unable to cast a nano on oneself while being able to get it from another toon.
    3) looks seriously at the balance over the life of the toon. Most of the focus is on end game. Most of the fixes for end game "problems" will seriously impact a leveling toon.
    wow seruisly?
    1) if u remove the dmg cap except the % cao that would move toons into more hp = bad even more wich is just a stupid game mechanic that would be made eevn worse by ur suggestion.
    2) the nanos with a lvl lock has a lvl lock to prevent them from goin completly out of hand in dmg in pvp. imagine a TL 5 NT casting almost the top nukes.. with ur suggestion every nuke from a NT on everyone would be a 30% cap .
    3) the professions are built different and thus always will be hard to balance profs at all TLs. keepers and shades wont ever work well as lower TL toons just cause the fact that they are perk dependant and doesnt get access to their full toolset untill endgame.

    The rest of ur post i didnt even bother to read after those 3 suggestion that is made completly without insight into how the game is working.
    Moonbolt - 220/26/something. Trox Enf RK1 General of Hells Heroes.
    Renswind - 220/21/67 solitus trader.
    Moonkiss - 219/21/something opifex shade.
    Mooncloud - 150/18/somethin solitus MA.

  5. #25
    Reading all of the profession comments as well as most of the other balance forum posts there are two items that stand out.

    Most of the recommendations seem to add significantly to the programming complexity. Having run IT operations, I must question the wisdom of this approach. Complex programming is is more expensive and lends itself to more unintended consequences and outright exploitation.

    Most of the discussion is focused on end game.

    This said, I think almonora's comments have some validity as a diffenent approach to the major problems in game. Simpler, less exploitable, and should be easier. Also easier for new game players to understand. Perhaps not all the comments are practicable, but the concept is certainly more understandable than what is being suggested in many of the forum posts.

  6. #26
    Usually, I don't respond to forum comments Moon, but I do wish to thank you for reinforcing my points however obvious was your intent to do otherwise. Most of the current recommended changes are adjustments, to changes, to modifications, to limits or caps, to fixes, of the original problem. Simply get rid of all that and see what, if any, original problems still exist or whether the problems are the result of all the changes, caps, limits, modifications, that have been made. Most of these have limited toons rather than improving capabilities. The changes in NT, including the doubles and triples, are quite typical. Now the game is overbalanced in the NT favor. If however other limits did not exist it is unclear how much a problem in balance would actually exist.

    I am trying respond as if your comments were serious, but it is hard as your comments so well support my basic premises. There have been many changes for many people with many different ides since the original game and Notum Way Beta (and yes I did play then). Some were well conceived, some were not. Most took an easy solution of gimping instead of addressing the fundamental problem. Any many more simply enabled players to figure out a way around the fix through equipment or mechanisms unanticipated at the time of the change. Going back to the basics and re-assessing the need for all of them given changes in perks, sl, equipment, etc. seems only logical and reasonable.
    Last edited by Almonora; Jan 25th, 2010 at 22:51:26.

  7. #27
    im sorry i must have missunderstood 1 of ur 2 points....

    in the first u want every dmg cap to get removed except the 30% cap.
    in the second u are saying that doubles and tripples are overpowerd cause of the issue that they circumvent the 30% cap.
    u are contradicting urself in ur 2 different posts and sorry it making me ratehr confused of what u want.
    Do u want the 30% cap to be removed in pvp so that people will be able to one shot other toons as it was back in vanilla AO.
    Or do u want keep the dmg cap of 30% and unlock specials to hit for their full power like FA that would hit for over 30K dmg w/o the 15k cap.

    cause i read ur first post as if u wanted to remove the caps dmg in the first post as if u wanted to make FA hit for its full capability and AS etc but keep the dmg cap.
    while u in ur second post are lashing out at the nanos that are circumventing the 30% cap.

    there would be major issues with removing both those caps tho.

    in the first instance if u removed the upper caps on dmg that would result in the more health u have the more of a dissadventafe it would become... as it is in certain instances atm and wich is directly associated with the 30% cap system that AO has.

    in the second case that would lead to the problem that professions with less health would be able to get one shotted once again in this game and that was the reason that the 30% caps was introduced in the first place... well they were introduced as 40% caps at first.

    changing any of those caps would need a full rework of the combat system of AO where we would have to go thru a complete rework of the dmg/health ratio we have atm.
    Moonbolt - 220/26/something. Trox Enf RK1 General of Hells Heroes.
    Renswind - 220/21/67 solitus trader.
    Moonkiss - 219/21/something opifex shade.
    Mooncloud - 150/18/somethin solitus MA.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Almonora View Post
    Then look for imbalances and establish pvp nanos to mitigate instead of gimping/nerfing. Three examples:
    a) if the heal delta for cocoon professions is a problem in pvp (not sure it would be any longer if damage caps are gone) then create a pvp nano that reduces the target heal delta by a large number e.g.200 points with a duration equal to the duration of bio-cocoon. Fixes the perceived problem in pvp without other impacts on the game.
    b) eliminate all the nerfing on roots and snares. Who cares anyway. Give all professions a self only "insta-wipe" pvp nano that immediately removes all roots and snares. It could operate similar to the fixer nano for dots and doc debufs.
    c) evades are another topic in a lot of the forums. Again instead of the nerfing, caps, etc. that have been done (get rid of them). Give all professions a hostile pvp nano that reduces target evades by some very large number, say 1500 points, Problem solved without other impacts on the game.
    ok so just gotta ask, is these for stripping down profs to see where they are going wrong without their intended strength to highlight their weaknesses or is this just a really really really poorly thought out way of balancing.

    roots and snares are a problem so give all profs a nano to instant wipe them all? evades are a problem so give all a nano that reduces evades by 1500? im hoping this is some kinda troll or joke...
    Shadwstalker - In before agents are cool again! http://auno.org/ao/equip.php?saveid=171841
    Imsoparanoid - gimpeh http://auno.org/ao/equip.php?saveid=128791
    Shadwenf - gimpeh http://auno.org/ao/equip.php?saveid=133295

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Mastablasta View Post
    Please can you explain how this is relevant to the current discussion?
    Pointing out how nanodecks managed to effectively kill the choices? I wonder.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Klod9001 View Post
    Pointing out how nanodecks managed to effectively kill the choices? I wonder.
    Hey i actually did a inf mish with a pistol NT a year ago! He did pretty good to
    be honest. With Le nukes moving away and nts getting 3 seperate nanolines nukes things
    should be pretty interesting still.

    But wouldnt want another profession dependent on nanodecks. Atleast not in the nt form. And FC has said that the nanodecks will not be a NT kinda of cyberdeck.
    Last edited by DrLithvium; Jan 29th, 2010 at 00:44:43.
    Drtheron B 220/30 Atrox Doc First AI30 atrox doc on RK1
    Stilithium B 220/12 Nanomage Doc PVP project


    Nttheron B 220/16 Atrox NT Ao easymode pvp is: on
    Lithvium B 220/13 Solitius Crat DD hoe project
    Zystem B 208/8 Nanomage Engineer Tradeskiller


    + A couple of alts in progress

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by DrLithvium View Post
    Hey i actually did a inf mish with a pistol NT a year ago! He did pretty good to be honest.
    Sure he did good, but he still couldn't compete with the cyberdeck "choice".

    I can bet that AS pistol wielding NT would own today, but hey, it's much easier to put on cyberdeck, get double/triple and play along like that.

  12. #32
    Reids - Make the first post say 'RENAME MY CRAT ALREADY!'
    214/20 Adv - Entventurer
    217+ Engi - Entity206
    220/20 Doc - Entagain
    220 Shade - Reali
    Orgless & Stripped.
    Awesome tradeskillers.

  13. #33
    what kind of wizard uses guns?

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by ameratsu View Post
    what kind of wizard uses guns?
    Techno wizard kind of wizard.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Entventurer View Post
    Reids - Make the first post say 'RENAME MY CRAT ALREADY!'
    lol so tempting ¬_¬

    Let's face it though, he's never gonna hit 220
    Deadfroobs - 18 agent- Work in progress
    Reidsangry - 30 enf - Work in progress
    Reidsmp - 76 mp
    Reidsagent - 95 agent/enf
    Reidsdrainz - 114 agent
    Reidscrat - 161 crat
    Reids - 218 crat
    Reidventurer - 220 advy
    Reidsma - 220 MA

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Almonora View Post
    1) Eliminate all damage caps except the limit on the damage as a percentage of the target toon's health. The rest are a waste of time and programming resources and cause imbalance in the game.
    The fact that any caps exist at all tells of serious flaws in the game mechanics. Basically it's like admitting "we know we made an overpowered attack but can't be bothered to fix it properly." The main problem with AO PvP is that FC is trying to apply the same rules in both PvM and PvP. Let's make a comparison:

    220-ish mob: 100k+ HP, 20k+ AC, low evades, varying nanoresist
    badass boss mob: millions of HP, up to 100k AC, medium evades, medium to high nanoresist
    220 player: 10k-20k HP, 7-10k AC, medium to high evades, high nanoresist

    With that huge HP, mobs can withstand a fullauto+burst+fling+perk alpha and still have a substantial amount of HP left, while a player would be instakilled. This is obviously not good, so the PvP damage cap was needed. However, there was one prof that had no alpha capability: the nano-technician. SL nukes have 3 second cycle time and are useless for killing anyone with any kind of heals. Back before LE, nearly all perk specials had AR as attack skill, and the cyberdeck had 1% nanoprogramming or some such joke as attack rating, making them useless. So FC introduced doubles and triples with LE.

    I'm not saying this was a good solution, because it wasn't. It's so like FC to go completely overboard with a supposed "solution", and then require more "solutions" to fix the problems caused by the previous on, et cetera ad infinitum.

    But I have strayed from my point, which is that AO PvP can't really be fixed. PvM is not meant to be a fair fight; mobs are meant to be slaughtered in numbers. They're also stupid, always coming to the player (even ranged mobs) and utilizing very few special abilities. To make them any kind of challenge, they need to be seriously beefed up compared to players of similar level. Which means that applying the same rules to PvP will result in instakills and other imbalance. Add to that the hugely different toolsets of different professions in AO, and you have a recipe for disaster.

  17. #37

    Stoooop the madness

    Wasted resouces IMO.

    WTB New engine.
    WTB Server Merge.
    WTB More Options for Froob Accounts. (attract more players)
    WTB (The secret world??? wtb AO2!!)
    Humans need Gods like fish need bicycles.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by reids View Post
    Doctor

    Healing: Spreading out the amount of healing to balance the numbers across all level ranges.

    Cyberdeck: Potential non-offensive Doctor 'weaponry' which allows the Doctor to choose between maximum healing/debuff/nuking capabilities, or whether they wish to go fully-offense by choosing a weapon.

    Debuffs: Potential AoE debuffs.

    Nuking: Nuke lines will be extended and adjusted across all level ranges, including the introduction of new nukes. Malpractice will receive adjustments. :P

    Buffs: Potential creation of team-based versions of existing buffs (such as Team-Enhanced Deathless Blessing)
    I may be wrong, but what I read there is "TL7 doc nerfing in favor of lower TLs" :
    nerfing heals at higher lvl and give boosts on lower lvl ranges
    nerfing malpractice (clearly overpowered, see all those docs with high pvp title) and give boots to lower ranges.

    Do you know that docs are better at TL5 than TL7 ?

    What do we got to compensate ? team buffs, so we'll be even just here to buff, heal and stfu ?

    I hope that the local recharge will really boost doc's toolset (it should from what I read on prof forums), otherwise, this whole thing is just a nerf, not a rebalance.

    Maybe I misunderstood, and all the rebalance together will change my point of view (like GTH changes) but I'm not very optimistic at the moment...
    Epolass 220/27 Eternalist Dedicated nurse
    Secretairepo 194/10 Dictator-wanabe Taking the path to TL7
    Hiddenpolas 150/11 Spectre with a nice blood cloak
    President of ACF Douce folie

    Quote Originally Posted by Mereditche View Post
    I can't care less about the balancing. Afterwards, the same people will still be whining on forums, the rest will adapt as always.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by epolass View Post
    I may be wrong, but what I read there is "TL7 doc nerfing in favor of lower TLs" :
    nerfing heals at higher lvl and give boosts on lower lvl ranges
    nerfing malpractice (clearly overpowered, see all those docs with high pvp title) and give boots to lower ranges.

    Do you know that docs are better at TL5 than TL7 ?

    What do we got to compensate ? team buffs, so we'll be even just here to buff, heal and stfu ?

    I hope that the local recharge will really boost doc's toolset (it should from what I read on prof forums), otherwise, this whole thing is just a nerf, not a rebalance.

    Maybe I misunderstood, and all the rebalance together will change my point of view (like GTH changes) but I'm not very optimistic at the moment...

    TL7 Docs are vastly OP'd right now and need a nerf. If you didn't want to stand and heal and buff, why roll a doc? People who like to fight should roll a shade or MA or something

    Also, what do you mean by Docs are better at TL5?
    Tl5 docs have LGE, and CH, both of which can be used at level 90..
    TL5 docs have only a couple of decent weapon choices, none of which are effective in PVP and PVM, so, how do you mean: TL5 docs are "better"? What kind of criteria are you using?

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich View Post
    TL7 Docs are vastly OP'd right now and need a nerf. If you didn't want to stand and heal and buff, why roll a doc? People who like to fight should roll a shade or MA or something

    Also, what do you mean by Docs are better at TL5?
    Tl5 docs have LGE, and CH, both of which can be used at level 90..
    TL5 docs have only a couple of decent weapon choices, none of which are effective in PVP and PVM, so, how do you mean: TL5 docs are "better"? What kind of criteria are you using?
    Docs wastly oped? Against who? Docs are prolly the easiest kill in the entire game.


    And have you seen much docs with lots of solokills lately? Talking tl7 now. Tl7 docs have the lowest average solokills of all professions. 99% of the time in pvp docs are in nanorecharge. And most of that time they are healing themselfes.



    Docs need a huge improvement. like ams+coon and still be able to heal. We still be killed before anyone else in mass pvp. But then we might be able to throw away few heals before dying.


    Tl5 docs are wastly superior to tl7. I know since ive played one for quite some time. Why?

    No gth
    Docs can still heal decent with drains running.
    No decent alphas from anyone.
    No hhab and fairlylow nr on most pvpers.
    Very few can kill a doc in just a ch recharge
    aimed shot

    And so on...
    Last edited by DrLithvium; Feb 9th, 2010 at 06:22:53.
    Drtheron B 220/30 Atrox Doc First AI30 atrox doc on RK1
    Stilithium B 220/12 Nanomage Doc PVP project


    Nttheron B 220/16 Atrox NT Ao easymode pvp is: on
    Lithvium B 220/13 Solitius Crat DD hoe project
    Zystem B 208/8 Nanomage Engineer Tradeskiller


    + A couple of alts in progress

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