New TL7 Trader drains...

[Hacre]

It's what I meant but at low tls they are at the very top I think.

In a 1v1/2v1 situation, they're at the very top at TL1 through to around level 76, yes. After that, there's other professions that can alpha Traders in drain recharge.

You'd be amazed how scary 100ish Enfos are, even after Nanite Divest has landed. Then there's all those NR perked 94/95 Agents.

[Hacre]

Gee, why is this thread still open? If anything, drains could use a nerf, not boost, LOL

And it's not only 1300 AR loss on target. You have to count in those extra 300 AAD you gain from protection, which leads us to practical 1600 AR loss on target.

Which brings Traders still far behind the defence ratings of Crats and Fixers. Says something about Traders and their toolset.

Shouting about numbers all over the shop, only works if you put them into context. Pre drains, Traders are squishy as. Once a drain is up, they have time to soften you up. Once both drains are up, they can actually start thinking about killing you. Those defences also only work per target. So while they're swanning about with 3.8-4k defence vs one target (that takes quite some time to get up), they're still stuck with crappy HP and crappy defence vs anyone else that decides to show up.

[Tergx]

Which brings Traders still far behind the defence ratings of Crats and Fixers. Says something about Traders and their toolset.

Shouting about numbers all over the shop, only works if you put them into context. Pre drains, Traders are squishy as. Once a drain is up, they have time to soften you up. Once both drains are up, they can actually start thinking about killing you. Those defences also only work per target. So while they're swanning about with 3.8-4k defence vs one target (that takes quite some time to get up), they're still stuck with crappy HP and crappy defence vs anyone else that decides to show up.

couldn't have said it better myself, but the problem is that this is OUR (trader's) reality, and those who want to nerf us make all kinds of ridiculous claims loosely based on some fishy math they computed (in thier favor of course) which is born out of them getting drained at some point and not liking it.

A poster right above me says "No need to give traders anything more" and that "drains are just as effective as b4", well you are, of course, entitled to your opinion, but is just that. I have been playing a trader since the beginning, every type of pvp there ever was in this game, and I would not hesitate to bet real money on the fact that the current drains in fact DO NOT have the same effect as they did when they were fresh, as the new drains are now. This is the correct comparative context.

Numbers are numbers and mean nothing unless they are stated in the right context. Opinions are opinions. Feelings are feelings. Those things are not interchangeable.

So, I have an opinion too, and that is that the current drains are incorrect in their implementation. IMO, the only "restructuring" of the drains should be a fair give-and-take approach to "balancing".

Want to lower the amount of the total amount of reg skills drains with both drains up, fine ( not that this is typical or average), then give us a drain system that actual does what it was originally designed to do, which is significantly reduce an opponents skill to inflict weapon damage. This should be done by adding the ability for us to drain special skills, as there is a limit to what is reasonable for the amount of regular skills that can be drained will be tolerated. Think we're at that limit now.

[Klod9001]

Which brings Traders still far behind the defence ratings of Crats and Fixers. Says something about Traders and their toolset.

Hmmm, why did they deleted my (valid) post with corrected AR loss numbers? And that was not with procs counted in, which can make things even worse.

Who said they should be another fixer/crats? They are actually not so far behind (if they are at all), especially not after the introduction of incredibly OP'd thing like "Your Enemy's Enemy is your Friend". Like one bad joke like GTH was not enough.

Shouting about numbers all over the shop, only works if you put them into context. Pre drains, Traders are squishy as.

Have you ever met a trader that is not predrained?

Once a drain is up, they have time to soften you up. Once both drains are up, they can actually start thinking about killing you.

No, once GTH and YEEIYF are up, they are practically unkillable.

Those defences also only work per target. So while they're swanning about with 3.8-4k defence vs one target (that takes quite some time to get up), they're still stuck with crappy HP and crappy defence vs anyone else that decides to show up.

I believe we all are, except advs and soldiers (when traders/NTs are not around).

[Wrangeline]

Have you ever met a trader that is not predrained?

In this context, no trader is pre-drained. The point about trader being squish before drains is that they need to drain you so that they aren't squish against your attacks any more. A trader having predrained someone else does not make them less squish vs you. Unless you count the +300 AAD-drain but that one only lasts 30 seconds.

I don't know exactly how much defense a crat has but if a trader gets a bit more defense than a crat versus 1 target after having fully drained said target, the crat has that amount of defense against everyone and the crat does not have to land drains on anyone for that either. So far the crat has a huge advantage in terms of omni directional defense. The trader has heal and HoT which balances that out though. The heals can however obviously not be cast while in the process of landing drains. In terms of defense, GTH only helps the trader by making nanobot shield a bit more effective but that shield only lasts 15 seconds.

In a 1 vs 1 scenario, the trader can get very good defense after landing all drains. The drawback to this is that, unlike other professions, we don't have that good defense against anyone else until we drain them as well.

Traders are definitely among the very top in terms of PvP usefulness and potential strength but when it comes to omni-directional defense, we are among the worst.

Crats got better static defense than trader but when incoming attacks goes past your ability to tank, you have less fancy tools to fall back on than trader has. Would I give up YEEIYF for higher static defense? I personally would. It would mean less stuff to cast so that I can focus more on the actual combat instead of managing all the cooldowns from all the nanos we have to land constantly

What point am I trying to make here? I have no idea. I'm just rambling. The only thing I actually wanted to say was the very first paragraph.

[Klod9001]

In this context, no trader is pre-drained.

As long as pets exist in their current gimped form yes, they are all predrained, more or less.

Would I give up YEEIYF for higher static defense? I personally would. It would mean less stuff to cast so that I can focus more on the actual combat instead of managing all the cooldowns from all the nanos we have to land constantly

Hmmm. I doubt you would give up this HoT/DoT just for some 300ish more static def crats have.

What point am I trying to make here? I have no idea. I'm just rambling.

Aren't we all?

[Wrangeline]

As long as pets exist in their current gimped form yes, they are all predrained, more or less.

Seems you missed the point again.

Hacre said: "Shouting about numbers all over the shop, only works if you put them into context. Pre drains, Traders are squishy as."

Which to me means that a trader is squishy against people that he haven't drained yet. So you can't be pre-drained in terms of defense and thus not be squishy if you need to drain someone to become non-squishy.

I personally would like 300 more static defense over YEEIYF. I'm not saying that 300 more static defense is generally better than the HoT from YEEIYF but I would still want to make that trade personally.

[Tergx]

yup, just like any call for a nerf, they are always personal and singular in focus, so for the overall profession they are irrelevant. We can than thank Klodd for the free bumps and entertainment

Which to me means that a trader is squishy against people that he haven't drained yet. So you can't be pre-drained in terms of defense and thus not be squishy if you need to drain someone to become non-squishy.

[Infamine]

For some reason my previous post was deleted...

I was saying, traders have the debuff role, thus i (and thats my own opinion, as i am entitled to have one...) think there should be aoe drains, not the buff, just the debuff, cause team pvp is what really matters...

Back on the topic, traders nowadays, are way more squishy than they ever were, when caught unprepared, this must be adressed, and drains are a huge part of the trader survival toolset, nerfing them isnt the solution, making them more suitable to the current way the game works is...

[Klod9001]

We can than thank Klodd for the free bumps and entertainment

The feeling is mutual.

Seems you missed the point again.

Hacre said: "Shouting about numbers all over the shop, only works if you put them into context. Pre drains, Traders are squishy as f**k."

Which to me means that a trader is squishy against people that he haven't drained yet. So you can't be pre-drained in terms of defense and thus not be squishy if you need to drain someone to become non-squishy.

I didn't miss the point, I'm just saying drains are quite effective already, even if they don't give you defensive abilities per se.

Today's traders have quite enough static defense to pass the "squishy" state you two are referring to.

And anyways, those "on demand" 650 AAD against one attacker (or 300 against everybody else), if you are predrained (nearby player's pets, lowbie NPCs...), are easily attainable.

Long story short: Drains are good as they are, no need to boost them. Only thing they could use is a level lock, to balance lower level PvP a little.

I personally would like 300 more static defense over YEEIYF. I'm not saying that 300 more static defense is generally better than the HoT from YEEIYF but I would still want to make that trade personally.

OK, then. If you really think so. I most certainly wouldn't. The nano is simply that great.

Back on the topic, traders nowadays, are way more squishy than they ever were, when caught unprepared, this must be adressed

That's simply not true. They should actually be more vulnerable, when caught unprepared - the only way to actually beat them (which is hard, given the fact how many "easy to land" debuffs they got lately).

[Mountaingoat]

The trader should have to refresh drains a lot more for their current level of power, say 15s-20s for divest duration and 30s for plunder. You could keep your three and a half minute positive effect though for all I care (or even have it increased). GTH shouldn't be able to be held indefinitely on players and it should be much much shorter, again for it's current level of power.

[Infamine]

That's simply not true. They should actually be more vulnerable, when caught unprepared - the only way to actually beat them (which is hard, given the fact how many "easy to land" debuffs they got lately).

You misunderstood me, i'm not saying they should not be squishier unprepared, of course they should be, but compairing to what it once was, they are too squishy...

Actually, i kinda enjoy dieing alot when my role is done, that is debuffing my opponents so my team gets the edge, but i dont really see the point in debuffing someone to oblivion, thats why i'd rather have aoe debuffs that affects more skills (general,nano and specials) but for less, and damage output drains...

Hope you see my point :/

[Strupstad]

No, once GTH and YEEIYF are up, they are practically unkillable.

Well, before you can start thinking about getting GTH and YEEIYF up, you have to kite while trying to land divest, because w/o it, chances of landing these as well as Corporate protection are abyssimal against advs, enfs, nt's, as well as other NR twinked professions.

Your attempt at reasoning some kind of trader logic is flawed at best. It shines through that you've never played a trader.

[Klod9001]

Well, before you can start thinking about getting GTH and YEEIYF up, you have to kite while trying to land divest, because w/o it, chances of landing these as well as Corporate protection are abyssimal against advs, enfs, nt's, as well as other NR twinked professions.

Oh, gee! That's why traders never pre-drain on greens, NPCs and all the pets that are stucked all over the place. :facepalm:

Your attempt at reasoning some kind of trader logic is flawed at best.

The only thing flawed here is myriad of newly introduced, OP'd, trader nanos.

It shines through that you've never played a trader.

Yeah, must be it.

Dude, I believe there's not a single person on AO servers that didn't at least roll a tl2 trader, which is enough to see how fuxed up drains are.

[Tergx]

Oh, gee! That's why traders never pre-drain on greens, NPCs and all the pets that are stucked all over the place. :facepalm:

yeah, we ALL know (us overpowered GOD mode traders) that greens, NPCs, and pets are ALWAYS around every time we need them and in every instance, guess we deserve the..... err facepalm ??? ok (chuckle)

The only thing flawed here is myriad of newly introduced, OP'd, trader nanos.

Don't pat yourself on the back too much, all you're proving with your divine expression of wisdom you have shown, is the obvious. That being, of the fact that your opinion actually differs with others, but congratulations on your discovery. I wouldn't call that a flaw unless there is some rule that everything has to meet your personal ideas, thankfully, that's not the case.

Dude, I believe there's not a single person on AO servers that didn't at least roll a tl2 trader, which is enough to see how fuxed up drains are.

HAHA you would sooo lose a bet like that, in order to win requires the same assumption as all your posts, that everyone that doesn't think like you is wrong. That's basic psychology taught in many business and psychology courses, among others.


I understand that you kind of hate traders, but an argument that does not make.

[Tergx]

lets play a guessing game. One side A is a 220 NT vs random opponent. On side B is a 220 Trader.

Now, lets assume they land their respective hostile (to you) nanos. On side A, after the NT has finished nuking you to kindom come, you'll be at reclaim or in the decon on the BS.
On side B, during the same amount of time, the Trader has landed drains, debuffs, and a myriad of nerfs a person generally dislikes. from us.
On comparison, the opponent on side A is dead. On side B, the opponent on the receiving end of all the trader nanos is still standing there.

Seems to me our nanos don't do much killing, and I'm talking about nanos here, not guns. When you take away the obvious default claim in pvp that :
"prof X is OP because they cast nano Z on me, they need a nerf", what you're left with is the obvious fact that noone like getting debuffed by anyone else. Period.

The trader should have to refresh drains a lot more for their current level of power, say 15s-20s for divest duration and 30s for plunder. You could keep your three and a half minute positive effect though for all I care (or even have it increased). GTH shouldn't be able to be held indefinitely on players and it should be much much shorter, again for it's current level of power.

[Klod9001]

yeah, we ALL know (us overpowered GOD mode traders) that greens, NPCs, and pets are ALWAYS around every time we need them and in every instance, guess we deserve the..... err facepalm ??? ok (chuckle)

Divest Skills (Nanite Improved) - Duration 3 minutes, 30 seconds
Plunder Skills (Nanite Improved) - Duration 3 minutes, 30 seconds

/facepalm

Don't pat yourself on the back too much, all you're proving with your divine expression of wisdom you have shown, is the obvious. That being, of the fact that your opinion actually differs with others, but congratulations on your discovery. I wouldn't call that a flaw unless there is some rule that everything has to meet your personal ideas, thankfully, that's not the case.

Yes, because every person (but me, obviously) agreed that GTH, Shutdown Skills, YEEIYF were in fact ingeniously implemented tools, that were long overdue and they made this game oh, so very fun to play.

Aha.

HAHA you would sooo lose a bet like that, in order to win requires the same assumption as all your posts, that everyone that doesn't think like you is wrong. That's basic psychology taught in many business and psychology courses, among others.

So, you think level locking trader drains is wrong? Well, I don't.

I understand that you kind of hate traders, but an argument that does not make.

You don't understand anything.

[schloops]

lets play a guessing game. One side A is a 220 NT vs random opponent. On side B is a 220 Trader.

Now, lets assume they land their respective hostile (to you) nanos. On side A, after the NT has finished nuking you to kindom come, you'll be at reclaim or in the decon on the BS.
On side B, during the same amount of time, the Trader has landed drains, debuffs, and a myriad of nerfs a person generally dislikes. from us.
On comparison, the opponent on side A is dead. On side B, the opponent on the receiving end of all the trader nanos is still standing there.

Seems to me our nanos don't do much killing, and I'm talking about nanos here, not guns. When you take away the obvious default claim in pvp that :
"prof X is OP because they cast nano Z on me, they need a nerf", what you're left with is the obvious fact that noone like getting debuffed by anyone else. Period.

What you are missing here, is the fact that nts actually have nemesis professions... traders don't, from tl1 to tl7.

[Cryfreman]

Plunder not so hard for you guys to land from what I am seeing on BS's lately. Checking back through battle spam plunder was landing on me far to regular on a first attempt, this is through me having 2800NR at the time.

As for traders being more squishy now than they ever have been, dont make me laugh. Years ago traders where cannon fodder for me, probally before most of the guys here jumped on the trader band wagon.

[Hacre]

What you are missing here, is the fact that nts actually have nemesis professions... traders don't, from tl1 to tl7.

That's not strictly true, Enforcers put in a pretty good showing against Traders from around TL3 and upward, as well as those abominations of NR perked Agents from around the same level through TL4.