New TL7 Trader drains...

[Wrangeline]

Lowers all attacking and nano skills of the target by 325 points, transferring 275 points back to the caster. The target will also lose 150 points of offensive ability and decreased chance of a critical hit.x2

Lowers the offensive ability of the target player by 350 and increases the defensive capabilities of the caster by 300.

Lowers the defensive ability of the target player by 350 and increases the offensive capabilities of the caster by 300.

Like i asked before, i assume they all stack and asked if i was wrong, no pointed out if i was and proved it though. So mind telling me if the AAO/AAD drains stack or not before i go calc some numbers again?

I add things together thats how, how else??

AAO and AAD drains don't stack for starters.

[Kazeren]

I asked that like 12 posts ago. No one said anything That also totally screws my #s up because i included the AAO debuff as well as the targets lowered AAD to the traders AR.

It's too late to do math ill get back to you tomorrow on why i want your drains nerfed

[Saetos]

Lowers all attacking and nano skills of the target by 325 points, transferring 275 points back to the caster. The target will also lose 150 points of offensive ability and decreased chance of a critical hit.x2

(325+125)*2 = 950 : 0 ::: 275 * 2 = 550 : 0
You've lost 950 Attack Rating so far and have zero net AAD loss, we've gained 550 Attack Rating so far and have zero net AAD.

Lowers the offensive ability of the target player by 350 and increases the defensive capabilities of the caster by 300.
350+950 = 1300 : 0 ::: 550 : 300
You've lost 1300 Attack Rating so far and have zero net AAD loss, we've gained 550 Attack Rating and have gained 300 AAD.

Lowers the defensive ability of the target player by 350 and increases the offensive capabilities of the caster by 300.
(Now I'm pretty sure this doesn't stack, as all 4 nanos are in the same line, but in case they do
1300 : 350 ::: 550 + 300 = 850 : 300
You've lost 1300 Attack Rating and lost 350 Defense rating. We've gained 850 Attack Rating and 300 Defense Rating.

There. Still not workin out for you?

[Kinkstaah]

If traders can't quickly turn a 1 vs 1 fight in their favor (if nanos land), then traders need just as much omni-directional defense as other professions get. If you want traders to be average in 1 vs 1 then we need to be average in omni-directional defense as well. Which we aren't.

Trader evades are already pretty high. Corp Protection is useful. Nanobot Defence could use a boost in duration + easier ways for a trader to drain nanopool to keep it running. Traders should be chain casting things on their opponents (and I do mean chaining) things to keep nanos up. What's wrong with 20s drains that give the trader X points of nano on sucessful landing to keep NBD up? etc. I was always of the opinion that a trader should be doing more damage from hagglers, making them a nuking hp-draining class to stay alive with shotgun regulars instead of AS.

There's plenty of better, logical options that dont result in opponents pulling hair out, and stupid 1 button "I WINZ" mechanics.

So as I see it, if you think traders defensive capabilities and damage-dealing abilities in PvP are good enough as they are, then you are forcing yourself to agree that traders should be very very good in 1 vs 1. If not, then you are not using logic as far as I see it.

Traders should be average in 1v1, every class should have an ability to be good in a 1v1 situation if they know their stuff. Traders (and Engineers) currently are just a bit over the top vs most.

Well, once you get into TL5, TL6 and up, drains do stop becoming twinking tools and become AR-boosting tools. You're absolutely right.

So you want us to not be able to drain weaponskills/nanoskills? Keep in mind that, again, we depend on lowering our opponent's attack rating to be able to gain a footing in PVP combat, so that we can start our little rigamaroll to gain enough of a footing to win the fight. If we're not able to modify AR or stop other nanos, then we're pretty much doomed.

I think I detailed this above, but a rework of how traders operate would be nice. Boosting their HP Draining/Healing (make it buff nano pool now), giving NBD at a lower level, and giving drains that simply boost the trader are all viable options without ruining the gameplay experience for everyone else.

It took me about 15 seconds to think of that - I really don't see how it's such a complex issue.

[Infamine]

After giving it some thinking, i guess a change to drains, so they become massive aad/crit/% of dmg drains and some aao along with a loss in perk effectiveness could compensate for the loss of weapon/nano skills drain.

Ie :

Divest draining 275 aad/ 20% crit/300 dmg / 150 aao - perk dmg at 85%

Plunder draining 325 aad/25% crit/350 dmg / 175 aao - perk dmg at 70%


Would that sound more reasonable to you ?

[Wrangeline]

Trader evades are already pretty high. Corp Protection is useful. Nanobot Defence could use a boost in duration + easier ways for a trader to drain nanopool to keep it running. Traders should be chain casting things on their opponents (and I do mean chaining) things to keep nanos up. What's wrong with 20s drains that give the trader X points of nano on sucessful landing to keep NBD up? etc. I was always of the opinion that a trader should be doing more damage from hagglers, making them a nuking hp-draining class to stay alive with shotgun regulars instead of AS.

There's plenty of better, logical options that dont result in opponents pulling hair out, and stupid 1 button "I WINZ" mechanics.



Traders should be average in 1v1, every class should have an ability to be good in a 1v1 situation if they know their stuff. Traders (and Engineers) currently are just a bit over the top vs most.



I think I detailed this above, but a rework of how traders operate would be nice. Boosting their HP Draining/Healing (make it buff nano pool now), giving NBD at a lower level, and giving drains that simply boost the trader are all viable options without ruining the gameplay experience for everyone else.

It took me about 15 seconds to think of that - I really don't see how it's such a complex issue.

So what you're saying is that you don't want a profession like traders in AO.

That's what I have said all along. People are just not willing to deal with the fact that a profession like the Trader exists. People find skill-debuffs annoying and so meeting a debuffing profession in PvP is simply not fun for them. Because of this, they will never ever be happy until traders are so crap that they become a joke or until the trader profession has been changed into something completely different than it is and always has been.

I have suggested this before, with no hint of sarcasm, that FC may as well just delete the trader profession because our enemies will never enjoy meeting us in PvP unless we are a complete pushover and they will whine about how our toolset works and us traders wont have much fun when no one has any respect for our profession or the individual player skill involved.

I think you need to do some research into how the traders nanobot shield works because it does not work like the NT shield does. If you suggest to make our shield work like the NT-shield does and THEN give us strong nanopool regenerating abilities then that's interesting as far as alternative defense goes but if you demand that we stop debuffing weapon and nanoskills in the process then you are not asking for a nerf or slight change. You are asking for the trader profession to be deleted and for some new profession to take its place. One you apparently spent 15 seconds making up.

If so then that just supports what I have said all along. That people are just not willing to deal with the fact that a profession like the Trader exists.

[Cryfreman]

add drain/ubt removal to nano doc sounds a good idea to me.

[Jekonam]

I'd be very surprised if Traders have an easy time landing anything other than Divest against a well set up PvP MA. I highly doubt Divest turns you into a TL5 toon.

I bet you have never played 220MA. After uwos is down we are dead meat.

[dritst]

The aim of trader is to disable his opponent nothing less nothing more, stop crying because trader toolset is nowaday efficient (should be same with mp about nsd)

[Hacre]

I bet you have never played 220MA. After uwos is down we are dead meat.

I've fought enough of them, as a caster that has the tools at my disposal to make things easier to land on MAs as well as a good chunk of my toolset having lower checks than Traders do.

More people need to have conversations with Snoopdoog and Odduwaya. Seriously.

I'm not claiming MAs are perfect and don't need help, lord knows various melee professions, especially ones with low hit speed and crap range like MAs, need some assistance. But standing around practically claiming that everything lands always and when just one thing lands you're toast, is a complete fallacy when it comes to what the profession is capable of.

There is a MASSIVE gulf between an excellent MA (the two I mentioned from personal experience) and ok to bad MAs.

[navycut]

So you're arguing that an MA that can cause me difficulties landing a 1/1.8 55% check nano, is highly vulnerable to 0/3 90% checking nanos.

Right.

Yep thats what he's saying. Because if CB does or doesn't land its not the end for a MA, can still put up somewhat of a fight. If any drains land well yeah, the MA is pretty much meat after that, if the trader is in anyway decent at all.

Also uwos has a 1 min recharge and the NR buff lasts for 15 sec.

Also traders have very high nanoskill when predrained (pretty much always predrained on BS) and that drain is 90% check.

[odian102]

So what you're saying is that you don't want a profession like traders in AO.

That's what I have said all along. People are just not willing to deal with the fact that a profession like the Trader exists. People find skill-debuffs annoying and so meeting a debuffing profession in PvP is simply not fun for them. Because of this, they will never ever be happy until traders are so crap that they become a joke or until the trader profession has been changed into something completely different than it is and always has been.

I have suggested this before, with no hint of sarcasm, that FC may as well just delete the trader profession because our enemies will never enjoy meeting us in PvP unless we are a complete pushover and they will whine about how our toolset works and us traders wont have much fun when no one has any respect for our profession or the individual player skill involved.

I think you need to do some research into how the traders nanobot shield works because it does not work like the NT shield does. If you suggest to make our shield work like the NT-shield does and THEN give us strong nanopool regenerating abilities then that's interesting as far as alternative defense goes but if you demand that we stop debuffing weapon and nanoskills in the process then you are not asking for a nerf or slight change. You are asking for the trader profession to be deleted and for some new profession to take its place. One you apparently spent 15 seconds making up.

If so then that just supports what I have said all along. That people are just not willing to deal with the fact that a profession like the Trader exists.

AMEN

The vision of a Trader from AO's start is a profession that weakens the enemy and if unchecked makes the enemy a shell of what he/she was....

If you dont like this, you should be petitioning Funcom to remove the Trader profession.

From what I have determined from all the whining: You would think that Traders are the number 1 profession in AO. But in reality they are very low on the charts.... Wonder why....

Maybe its not because they are overpowered in drains, but that no one like to get drained period... Which means: Axe the profession.......

In most MMO's, you see a huge increase in population on a profession that is overpowered. Everyone is making them until the game dev's adjust them down....

This is not the case with Traders.... So my guess is you just dont like the idea of Trader in AO...

my 2 cents
Note: and you get what you pay for...

[navycut]

From what I have determined from all the whining: You would think that Traders are the number 1 profession in AO. But in reality they are very low on the charts

wait wha? Only in pvm they aren't all so great. In pvp traders are at the top at probably every tl.

[Hacre]

wait wha? Only in pvm they aren't all so great. In pvp traders are at the top at probably every tl.

They're among the top at every TL. Not the top.

[Jekonam]

In most MMO's, you see a huge increase in population on a profession that is overpowered. Everyone is making them until the game dev's adjust them down....

This is not the case with Traders.... So my guess is you just dont like the idea of Trader in AO...

Actually that IS with traders. I made fully decked tl5 trader because they are that strong. Im not the only one either. I can say that the drains need a serious fix.

But hopefully we are now getting the needed fix for this profession.

[Wrangeline]

Actually that IS with traders. I made fully decked tl5 trader because they are that strong.

Ah, you made a tl5 trader. Then traders must be generally OP.

I see far more agents, enfs, fixers and NT's in tl5 bs. Does that mean that all these professions are more OP than trader then? What about docs? I see more docs than traders at tl5. My tl5 non-twinked doc just ignore traders completely or DoT's them to death in bs because doc > trader at tl5.

I have spent God knows how many BS rounds healing clanners at tl5 and traders cause us the least amount of problems. Just slap an UBT on them and they become 100% useless. They do no damage worth mentioning and they die faster than most professions in there. Their drains are often countered, removable with perks and wont even stop me from CH'ing and I don't even wear any nanoskill armor at all.

Agents that can alpha you for 22k damage in 5 sec, they are the ones that you actually worry about. Enfs that can do 14k alpha while having people feared are scary. Good set up fixers can be scary or annoying. Traders are way down at like 8'th place in terms of scary-factor.

Can traders be annoying if left alone to debuff people as much as they want and can they be annoying when you run into them alone as a profession that do badly vs traders? Sure. Are traders scary beyond that? Pfft no

Biased + biased = 0.

[-Barg-]

You still playing Terg?

I feel, as an agent... that the drains are overpowered in its current state, seeing my char is locked down 90%, and only my 11 sec AS remains, if you were to drain specials aswell, I would be at 0% effectiveness...

Is that really fair?

Is it fair that you can alpha a trader before they have a chance to react?

[-Barg-]

In my experience for a trader to do well in tl7 pvp you need to have a very decked out toon defense wise. CSS, huds , 300 alphas etc, everything. If you don't divest + corp protection will still mean you get perked by nearly all profs and you die.

Contrary to belief, plunder hardly lands and is only used after a combo of

Divest, corp, YEEIYF, Heal
If required : GTH, BR, NBD, roots, calms, more Heal
Perks

At this point were 30 seconds at least maybe more down the road and were gonna try plunder but before we need to refresh corp protection as that is 30s nano. You then cast plunder it resists 150% def check. You have to go back to the
calm, root , heal etc cycle.

The only time i seem to have plunder running is when i find a pet running around and drain it.

If plunder was taken out for PVP it would not make such a big difference. Others might not agree but thats my feelings.

[Wrangeline]

Less mushrooms maybe?

Nah, I'm fine thanks. I guess my post was too context-sensitive, the points I made was perhaps too subtle and my knowledge/experience of tl5 doc/trader PvP is part of the point I'm trying to make. I also have a surprising amount of important details that needs to be understood to make full sense of what I'm saying. If you want to know what I mean by any of that then you are free to ask me in PM (don't have any interest in a ping-pong discussion in this thread that other people don't care about).

Just for your information though; I generally don't troll so if I make a reply there's usually a point or two buried in there somewhere. Sometimes (often) people don't get what I'm trying to say but then all they have to do is ask me to clarify and I will try to do so.

I sometimes make posts that are needlessly complicated and that is perhaps a weakness of mine. That's just how my brain works though. It's how I feel comfortable talking/writing.

[navycut]

They're among the top at every TL. Not the top.

It's what I meant but at low tls they are at the very top I think.