How should damage-ranking be and why?

[Hacre]

Some people are heavily grateful for Fixers being in teams. I know I am from a Crat/NT/Keeper perspective, where there's no way I can get the usual collection of outside buffs ypu can get in a large raid or at towers, without the help of a Fixer.

I don't know about RK2, but on RK1 Fixers are highly desirable at towers and if there's no Keepers around for 12 man we want Fixers there too.

Besides, DD built Fixers compete with Keepers pretty easily in the DD charts in PvM.

[lostlife]

so you admit fixers bring something to the team that isn't just damage?
shades can give 250 RS buff, and thats it, besides minor tanking.

[MassDebater]

Going by a lot of the logic here, FIXERs should be at the top. We bring NCU no one needs, RS that only an enfo using SL ess needs, and maybe a 1k heal in the form of 2 HoTs which if they tick at the right time might save someone. Maybe. Ohhh, and a dodge ranged debuff, which may help if you are a ranged toon. Our transportation toolset doesn't exist in SL.

We should be way above solds/engies - they both bring reflects and team damage auras. Keepers support tools are better than ours, so we should OD them. Shades can be useful-ish also, and the MA heals are better than ours, plus RI works in SL. Yay, we should OD them to.

If you buy the utility argument, then Fixers should slightly OD shades and MA's. Maybe at the same level if the CC changes make our CC worthwhile again.

Fixers RS makes anything from raids to inf mishes to towers stupidly faster and convenient. NCU makes it possible to hold huge amounts of OSBs (even with 830~ ncu self it starts to fill up quickly at raids). Lastly Long hots on everyone in team makes Doc's life much much easier. In fact, I do not require healing if I have a fixers long hot, while doing inf mishes.

[Perseus]

Some people are heavily grateful for Fixers being in teams. I know I am from a Crat/NT/Keeper perspective, where there's no way I can get the usual collection of outside buffs ypu can get in a large raid or at towers, without the help of a Fixer.

I don't know about RK2, but on RK1 Fixers are highly desirable at towers and if there's no Keepers around for 12 man we want Fixers there too.

Besides, DD built Fixers compete with Keepers pretty easily in the DD charts in PvM.

I am sorry, but my experience as a dual logged Fixer/Doctor tells me that Fixers get very very few team invites.

I am also not saying Fixers are bad PvM DD. I generally keep up with Soldiers and Keepers, often doing much better, especially given the amount of slacking that goes on. But no one in this thread has suggested that Fixers as a profession stay there. My point is that both the Soldier and Keeper support toolsets are more desirable, and on that criteria, which a range of people are using, means we should OD them.

Am I looking out for myself? Absolutely.

Fixers

Runspeed: Readjust runspeed curve in AO from the ground-up, decreasing overall speed and raising the maximum runspeed cap to allow Fixers a natural advantage from their runspeed-based toolset.

Runspeed Nanos: Revamp, allow for team amounts to be as good as single-target nanos.

HoTs: Potential team-based variants of existing HoTs. Potential additions of %-based HoTs across various level ranges.

Summon Stuff Lines: Improve ammunition-summoning line. Potentially replacing other summoning lines, as these are all worthless (yeah, that's right, I said it).

Roots/Snares: Duration decreased, faster casting, increased functionality in Shadowlands (goes for all professions).

Nothing in there hints at damage. Given other classes (which I would argue have better support tools than we do) are getting damage improvements, things are not looking good for us.

So where should we be on the DD list? Based on the utility argument - right up there with Shades.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

perseus, I think you missed the part where everyone was saying how fixers were useful.

besides... you just got some decent FA support. Thats not good enough?

srsly, fixers got lots of add dmg options and very decent FA buffing perks now, that seems like it should lend itself to doing decent damage already.

Did you miss last patch? or have you not logged in since 17.9? Fixers got love. Love it. enjoy it. But don't be stubborn that fixers need more damage when they 1. clearly don't. 2. just got a whole crapload of support AND 2 new decent damage perks.

sheesh.

[Perseus]

I was there for the last patch, and yes I use those perks. I do have the guns and I do enjoy them. I believe you missed my point - the question was who should be at the top of the DD chain and why. A number of people in this thread seem to state that there should be a trade off - the better the support toolset, the lower the damage. On that logic I say Fixers should be up the top of the list.

My point is that a Soldiers reflects, add damage aura, and ability to tank anything for AMS duration is better support than what a Fixer brings to the table. In my opinion. The ability to taunt vs the ability to snare ..... situational. Overall, Soldiers have better support, so should do less damage.

An MA has a better heal and can choose when to use it, RI works in SL, plus they have taunts and MoP. Is that support better than a Fixer? Situational, but probably not, so the Fixer should do less damage.

A Crat has an incredible debuff skill set, plus huge team buffs. They are far better support, so Fixers should do more damage.

Adventurers are soon to be the second best healing profession, they have CC tools, BR, Coon, a comparable RS buff, better add damage buffs. Is their support better? Yup, much better, so Fixers should OD them considerably.

And so on, and so forth. Your opinion probably varies - your perspective is different to mine. For what it is worth, I don't have any particular problem with the order you put forward. Further, if I did care about my DD, I would level my shade past 10. I can live with DD being taken away from me if my support toolset gets better. Actually, I would be happy to lose all of the recent improvements for a SL version of the F-Grid.

Is this coming? Your guess is as good as mine. The language used in the Fixer changes indicates that no one really has any idea where Fixers should be. Potential team based HoTs, Potential Summon lines, indicate to me, no clear direction. So potentially yes.

[Hacre]

You've got to apply some logic too. Pet professions should be high in the DD stakes, since there's 3 of us, or in the MP case, two of them.

[Mailana]

currently:

nt/ma/shade/crat/engie > everyone else > trader/busy doc/multiple docs

after rebalance:

nt/ma/shade/engie > agent fp dd prof > agent/everyone else > agent fp healer/tank/utility


crats are too handy, I have a 220 and hes my first choice for 99% of stuff, unless they lose something else they can survive being normal dd, will still get teams

Agents are receiving false prof love so that they can fill in for any prof, they shouldn't be top tier dd even if they're trying for that due to utility, just like adv isnt top dd. If they're healing/tanking, they shouldn't dd as well as a dedicated healer or tank, need to sacrifice something to attain versatility, or theyre always a better option than a dedicated prof.

Ofc all our opinions are kinda pointless right now, after rebalance traders might be #1 dd in pvm. One of the perk docs has them keeping sacrifice up 25% of the time.

[Tanana]

My opinion on Damage ranking.

SL
1. NT
2. Shade
3. Keeper
4. Soldier/MA/Engie/Crat/Fixer/MP
5. Enforcer/Adv/Trader
6. Doc

RK
1. NT
2. MA
3. Soldier/Shade/Engie/Crat/Fixer/MP
4. Keeper
5. Enforcer/Adv/Trader
6. Doc

Shades/Keepers should perform better in SL and receive a bonus to their overall performance, be that damage, evades, healing, whatever. They should suffer in RK for being out of their natural enviroment and receive penalties which effect thier performance.

Agents are not on the list due to their damage being very dependant on FP. Agent should be required to FP a good DD class for the area they are going to be in to perform towards the top of the DD table. They should never be able to OD the class they are fp'ing though so should never be top DD. This is the downside of being able to FP into so many different professions and reap the benefits that each offers.

[lostlife]

enfo should be on par with keepers , at the very least at lower/mid lvs (might nto be nessisary depending on what additions to the mongo line), because damage contributes to taunt a noticable amount. and if enfos lag to far behind, nano will become a serious issue.

i dont mind keepers getting more stuff to contribute to the team (such as these new auras taht were being talked about, dont know what they are, but your probobly getting them, and that reverse knockback thing, depending on its mechanics, could make keepers the perfect pullers), but enfo damage is very important from ado hecks to inf missions.

example: switching from panther to maul of mulestation (extreme example, i know) i switched form haivng to mongo 6-7 times (even with genius and FA maxed, it wasnt enough) at ado hecks, to 2ish times. (didnt even need to use anything besides genius)

[Hacre]

enfo should be on par with keepers , at the very least at lower/mid lvs (might nto be nessisary depending on what additions to the mongo line), because damage contributes to taunt a noticable amount. and if enfos lag to far behind, nano will become a serious issue.

i dont mind keepers getting more stuff to contribute to the team (such as these new auras taht were being talked about, dont know what they are, but your probobly getting them, and that reverse knockback thing, depending on its mechanics, could make keepers the perfect pullers), but enfo damage is very important from ado hecks to inf missions.

example: switching from panther to maul of mulestation (extreme example, i know) i switched form haivng to mongo 6-7 times (even with genius and FA maxed, it wasnt enough) at ado hecks, to 2ish times. (didnt even need to use anything besides genius)

Keepers should, and if set up for it, do, OD Enforcers. Enforcer aggro management tools are -more- than fine and unless FC flip something completely upside down, they will continue to be that way post rebalance. I mean come on, their taunting ability (rightly) increased by at least a factor of five when Enforcers -FINALLY- got some taunt love.

Damage isn't a solution to a nano problem. Thinking more carefully about the team structure (bag an NT, Trader, Crat (nano delta buff) or MP for the tank team) is a solution to a nano problem.

[IHaveHugeNick]

I am sorry, but my experience as a dual logged Fixer/Doctor tells me that Fixers get very very few team invites.

Everyone gets very very few team invites compared to Doctor.

[Hacre]

Everyone gets very very few team invites compared to Doctor.

Thank you for the giggle.

[Frubaliscious]

Adventurers are soon to be the second best healing profession, they have CC tools, BR, Coon, a comparable RS buff, better add damage buffs. Is their support better? Yup, much better, so Fixers should OD them considerably.

Adv's are already second best healers and have been for quite a while.

CC tools?! you serious? don't make me lol :P

I can't see how this is an argument for why Fixers should OD them.

I think you people are smoking something evil to think that adv's should be bottom of the list in DD simply because we can heal. IF anything Adv should be just below MA/Agent.

[Hacre]

Adv's are already second best healers and have been for quite a while.

CC tools?! you serious? don't make me lol :P

I can't see how this is an argument for why Fixers should OD them.

I think you people are smoking something evil to think that adv's should be bottom of the list in DD simply because we can heal. IF anything Adv should be just below MA/Agent.

Well it's been said that Advs are going to see an overall improvement in their calming toolset.

That said, I personally feel that Advs should be somewhere around Keepers, if both are set up for damage. Which to be honest is pretty respectable.

Advs might be second best healers or 4th best CCers or whatever, but at the end of the day in a raid situation, they're there to contribute damage and boost the damage of others via Kitty morphs. So lets be real, they should be up there in the DD stakes and last I checked, if they spec for it, they're somewhere ~close to the Keeper mark. This shouldn't change.

It only doesn't look that way on a DD dump, because most Advies are specced for the thing they're the kings of, PvP.

[Obtena]

Profs shouldn't be put on a certain position on the damage ladder because of the tools they possess. That's nonsense. You can justify anything with that kind of thinking. "OH he heals, so he doesn't need high damage". PFFT. Complete bull.

Damage should come as a consequence of the tools you have been given access to. Tools determine your damage but the fact you have certain tools like heals or evades should not justify fixing any profession into being rank #x in damage ladder. That's just so wrong. I'm always laughing when people telling me they should high damage because their defense sucks or they run slow. Like somehow, those variables became dependent for YOUR prof all the sudden? LAWL.

[Hacre]

Profs shouldn't be put on a certain position on the damage ladder because of the tools they possess. That's nonsense. You can justify anything with that kind of thinking. "OH he heals, so he doesn't need high damage". PFFT. Complete bull.

Damage should come as a consequence of the tools you have been given access to. Tools determine your damage but the fact you have certain tools like heals or evades should not justify fixing any profession into being rank #x in damage ladder. That's just so wrong.

Bump for this actually. I originally rolled my Crat for the DD ability, the other good stuff that comes with it, was a bonus (one I was only dimly aware of).

However, there's no arguing that professions obviously specced for damage dealing, should be the kings of it, ie, Shades and NTs.

[lostlife]

I agree with obtena on this one, but with one difference: a prof should always bring something to a team, whether that be diverse and less effective, or focus and the undisputed champ, no prof should have everything another prof has + other benifits. otherwise some profs would become obsolete. Therefore, some profs should have some of there tools improved to be better than others (in this case, DD) to make sure that there will always be a place.

[Frubaliscious]

yeah I agree Keepers and adv's always seemed to have a similar potential in pvm, and it should stay that way imo.

and atm I'd put us dead last in CC btw.

NT, crat, trader, Fixer, Agent, adv
(seeing as how ALL of our CC tools become ineffective once a mob agg's, yes you cannot use them)

It just seems more out of revenge than constructive thinking that everyone is putting us at the bottom, it's kind of funny.

[IHaveHugeNick]

The idea of creating some arbitrary damage ladders is beyond ridocolous in itelf, tbh, because brutal reality of team constructing in this game is that "most damage/most damage+doctor" approach works best for basically every encounter except 12man, so no matter how hard you will try to throw various toolsets at each other, the truth is: those who don't do damage, starve on lft.

Then you have second effect produced by expanding professions beyond their original themes , which cumulated over the years , and resulted in far too much "hybridisation" with several professions performing several roles at the same time , while being top 1-3 at each one, while everyone else can just stand behind and wonder who let things go out of control like that.