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Thread: OK, let's talk about new stuff

  1. #61
    i have just discovered something VERY wrong, keeper are probobly getting access to melee energy (buffs and perks most likely), and we aren't. we already have a buff line for it, perks couldnt be that hard

  2. #62
    Thanks lostlife for actually having a discussion here Yes I agree that 10k ACs would be a bit... absurd. But that was just a general idea numbers, time etc could be worked out later on.

    Yes we do have a lot of "aw hell" buttons, but- a nano=hp button wouldn't have to be that... I personally would use it just before casting challenger so I could save coon for a moment I actually needed it and let my ND kick in. No I'm not arguing that its a good idea, but enfos seem to be the gods of "aw hell" I tend to use BR habitually a minute or two after it comes up if I know that the raid I'm running won't require it in the next five minutes. Gives my doc a break and lets me breathe for a sec. and with the 5k absorb from Dreads I don't worry too much about when I use coon either- I save it for emergencies and cast coon when I just want to look away a sec. so long as I have 1-2 panic buttons ready I don't worry too much- another one just lets me keep them running more often than not.

    I can instacast absorbs without an issue with rage up, the idea was that if running our nanos at the right pace we could get an extra cast of something else in there instead of casting absorbs. Not a god button, but something that would help us a bit.

    Parry is a good option, but its an option that will be available to all melee users, and again something that we would not be "best" at. I want something enfo specific that gives us an edge when tanking several mobs for a period of time. Something that goes along with our toolset.

    I don't know how I feel about improving the mongo hot, makes me feel more like a keeper in that I'm healing myself... I would like ways to negate or minimize damage- it just seems more like an enfo.

    Question for all you folks, do you agree that enfs need more survivability in pvm to continue to be viable? And if so what would you suggest to rectify that?

    bleh... melee energy... why is FC making keepers the new enfs?
    Last edited by Mijjet; Jan 8th, 2010 at 06:01:44. Reason: melee energy comment...

  3. #63
    keepers have access to 2he and umm 2he.

    enf's have access to 1he, 1hb, 2he, 2hb, piercing and umm melee energy... so, ya,
    if keepers get access to melee energy zomg they must be the new and improved enforcer. Welcome to hellnerf.

    /facepalm.

    Quote= mjjit "Question for all you folks, do you agree that enfs need more survivability in pvm to continue to be viable? And if so what would you suggest to rectify that?"

    No. I can solo all the way to mid on my S10 enforcer without breaking a sweat. I can solo raids, solo 3-4 ely hecks at once, and almost solo a ship.

    If anything, enfs need a nerf for pvm balance... we're totally fine.

  4. #64
    i dont see enfos as negating damage, i see them as survivors the "WTF hes still alive, whats that in his ha..." splat a improvement to the hot might help us disregard more of the incomming damage, or even be the difference form champ and corpse.

    and knuck, were not talking about mid lv rediction, were talking about endgame reduction with mongo ess nerf
    enfos dont have melee energy or piercing perks, even though we have nanos that support them, its as if FC forgot a part of our toolset and melee masters, keepers are 2he masters (1h+sheild is only reason to give them alternative)
    Last edited by lostlife; Jan 8th, 2010 at 07:10:01.

  5. #65
    after talking to a few end game enfos, i have changed my standing on mongo ess from neutral, to against, it seems that it would be required at its current level to do certain raids, combines with heal nerf, this might make it so some things, like beast, can't be preformed with the insufficient playerbase.

  6. #66
    don't freak out fellow enforcers, clearly they just want a WHOLE GAME of advys......nerf FC and their ideas imo, LAME!

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Fullenforce View Post
    - Rage : Now any rooting prof will just root me and kill from range like a Hired Thug from RK mish ??
    They root, you pop rage to break root, both of you are in cooldown and can't rage/root more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mijjet View Post
    1- Keepers should NOT be getting taunts, and Soldier's taunts don't need to get any better. Their abilitiy to DD is their taunt and unless I mongo or single taunt a mob off of them they can keep aggro with it and their taunts.
    Keepers aren't getting taunts but rather a taunt management system, currently not clear in what form, so we'll be able to reduce the taunt values on say the Shade in the team so he/she can carry on offloading damage without having to tank.
    Last edited by Wakizaka; Jan 8th, 2010 at 08:16:24.

    220s "Wakizaka", "Sneakygank", "Wakimango", "Wakisolja", "Tardersauce", "Bushwaki", "Midgetgank", "Bugfixxx", "Ramsbottom", "Paskadoc"
    200s Chrisd, Malema, Delbaeth
    TL5s Youfail, Bugfixx, Riothamus, Johndee

    Proud President of Haven | TL5 PvP


  8. #68
    whoever can't figure out how to raid without the SL mega ess are goofs.

    Pande used to be a challenge, and you'll have at least 2x as much HP, with docs that have "unlimited" nano, and at LEAST 2x better healing. you'll have more reflects, and more NR.

    plus, you SHOULD have a raidforce with a bucketload more DD ability than when SL first came out.

    Enfs: if you aren't endgame, and you can't tank an endgame raid without a lot of support, then, GUESS WHAT? It's Working as intended!

    If you bring a 208 enf to pande, and QQ that you can't tank it, uhh, well, good. 208's should be doing penumbra mishes anyways.

  9. #69
    mcknuck: upcomming heal nerf

    and some things should require a raid force, just not when the playerbase is not big enough to regularly support that raid force

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by lostlife View Post
    mcknuck: upcomming heal nerf
    So the whole enf population is actually thinking they're the only ones being adversely affected in any way, when there's huge changes coming in things such as AS nerf - agents will be only ones using the instant AS, and even that is described as "not doing more damage than a burst". All others left standing for 3 seconds while that raging enf (unless he's in lockout ) running towards them to interrupt.

    If PvP enfo HP isn't affected, these changes to AS should be doing tons of good towards enfo survivability. Now slap a heal nerf on top (there were hints of increased nano cost on adv forum) and it doesn't matter if an enfo can't alpha my healing profession X, it's just gonna take too much time to kill that enf without that AS before the nano runs out, even more so if nano draining items are used.

    I do agree that it seems really annoying with no new shinies on the way. Hopefully they just haven't told about those yet.
    Eroz, finally 220/26/70 Adventurer & proud General of Regulators on ex-RK2 (outdated) equip
    Rokroland, 170 Engineer No more crab for j00 Northern Front on ex-RK2
    Ranged roxxorz!
    Sig last updated properly when West Athens still had people sitting about the subway.
    Quote Originally Posted by Siahanor View Post
    Complaining about the realism of height changing mechanics in a game that has people who can channel their anger to make huge killer meatballs.

  11. #71
    I look at these changes in 2 ways.

    #1 they are trying to balance us a bit more in pvm, lowering our HP but at the same time increasing our taunts (kinda counter intuitive in my mind but whatever, let the pvm'ers argue that ). I do know the mongo and taunt changes will be very welcome at some levels. At end game keeping hate is not really an issue. As far as lowering HP on IMUB, that's cool whatever, not many raids in this game even take most end game enfs to half health with a good doc

    #2 they are nerfing, and to me its a huge nerf, one of our most primary skills for surviving in mass pvp. A non-moving enf is pretty much a dead enf. 8-15 seconds, comeon really? You might as well take away the root break on rage if that 's the case. Nanos like greater restrict are spamable and 85% nano check, this is going to all but immobilize us.

    If you are going to take away our root breakable then at least give us a better defense against root, something like spacial displacement or perhaps a better version of boon of wanderer. This change really makes me scratch my head.

    IMO nerfing rage like this without giving us some other defensive benefit will dramatically reduce our survivability and therefore playability in mass pvp.

    Another thing these changes seem to really underscore is the disconnect between players and the devs. Half of this fix is geared towards pvm and non-end game pvm in my mind. How much of that really goes on in this game? Do they really think that is at the top of the list of enforcers issues? "I can't tank inferno mission bosses when there's a shade in my team, i need a better mongo" Really?

    PVM in my mind is fine for enforcer...probably a bit over powered, you could take away all SL ess IMO and it would actually make pvm fun. But still, this is not even in the top 100 of enforcer issues in my mind. But why do the devs think it is?? Are they trying to make Enf a PVM only class? God I hope not. Sad state of affairs.
    Almadena

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Kinkstaah View Post
    I stand by what I said, I don't *blame* Obtena or Arrien for this, I doubt it was their suggestion, and its probably been there in FC's minds for months (years?), where it came from is unknown.

    It wouldnt happen if two professionals spontaneously /quit and the enforcer profession refused to be represented until it was changed. I've said what needs to be changed in all of my posts, and if you have noticed it has been echoed by almost every enforcer that knows how to play the game. I don't doubt for a second that my posts, and the ones posted by others (in the other thread) will be used as examples of the enforcer community's opinion on how good an idea this is.

    There's nothing constructive when a class is being raped on all fronts, especially in the areas that make the class competitive in its current state. competitive being the key word here.

    We exist due to

    1) alpha.
    2) Speed.

    Thats it. Both are being nerfed. We're OK as it is. We're very nearly NOT ok as it is, too. Adjusting either of these would be dire.

    As for my conduct as an ex-professional, I find it highly amusing that when I was an Enf Professional (pre-SL) we received the kind of defence at the time I was looking for through perks, and massive HP (which was the problem, back then).

    I also smile a little that a lot of my suggestions when I was agent professional are now (only now?) Coming to fruition. (perks for mimic, modifiers for it, "local cooldowns") If you want, do a search on the professionals forums (and/or area 51) and you can find them.
    You are so full of yourself... let me start by saying that you were kicked from the professional program TWICE.
    So maybe your fightning style hasn't been the most rewarding? Please don't present yourself as the ultimate professional.
    In the end it is funcom making the decisions and not the professionals. Good and constructive feedback is everything.

    It is way too easy to blame Kyai and me for the recent changes suggested by funcom.
    You might not have noticed this but the program hasn't been what it used to be for almost 2 years.
    Just now funcom started to take the professionalprogram serious again.
    Hence the new recruitment started by funcom some weeks ago.
    When Kyai went inactive 1,5-2 years ago.. I have been asking for replacement.
    Also, when I left I have been asking funcom to replace me but again, no response.
    Not that it matters, like I said, funcom has just recently started to ask feedback from the professionals again.

    We have so much more than our alpha and our run speed... we are doing more than fine atm.
    It's never fun to see the nerfbat coming your way.. but playing the victim isn't going to make it hurt less.
    What could work is being realistic and constructive.. two things you really have to work on.

    Quote Originally Posted by info View Post
    No ofence Harios but arent you the one who rolled an Engy "after seeing what FC made to enforcers?". I might remember WRONG so I m just asking for now!

    Even now everyone knows Engy are VERY powerfull and yet look at FC ... IMPROVED PETS???????? cmooonnn

    Even as of NOW it totally sucks for me to go to WARS .... I d like to but guess what I m mellee... thus very limited. I need darn mobility ....

    Even the HEAL NERF might be a NERF for enfo in mass PVP and RAGE BREAKS ROOTS for a REASON even today ...

    Even as of today they just need to root enfo when he uses Challenger and there you go ... you have the cool down allready in game
    lol.. where do you get your intel from?
    I have access to a 220 engineer.. from a friend who gave me his account.
    But I have never seriously played that engineer.. it's just a nice extra dd or TS when I need one.
    My enforcer has always been my main..
    Totally understand your anger.. let's just hope funcom handles this the right way.
    In the end, many things are going to change and these are just some of the many to come.
    It's not just rage that is being discussed here.. it's the whole CC system.
    Last edited by Harios; Jan 8th, 2010 at 17:37:02.
    Harios - [Enforcer] cookies 220/30
    Advass - [Adventurer] nerf 220/21
    Wackios - [Shade] gankzsz 220/16
    Soldios - [Soldier] FA Burst 220/22
    Docios - [Doctor] healsplxz 220/20
    Cratios - [Bureaucrat] tape 220/19
    Proud Board Member of Dark Front Cookies >> Bacon, remember that!

  13. #73
    I'm not implying its your fault harios, its just as much funcom's fault as anyone. But you have to admit these proposed changes are as if someone rolled an enf, got it to level 200, talked to a couple other profs to see what they don't like about end game enfs and then said "Ok i've got it...i know how to fix enf class"
    Almadena

  14. #74

    Funcom employee

    I've posted this in... er... well, at this point nearly every rebalancing thread out there, but I figure it's worth repeating over here as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kintaii View Post
    For the most part I'm wanting to let the Professionals handle the dissemination of information with all of this, but there is one thing I want to chime in on, and something we've been a bit coy about overall in mentioning.

    When we talk about rebalancing, we do mean rebalancing. We mean a complete, ground-up look over all the numbers in game - How much AAO professions can receive, what their overall nano-costs are for buffing, how much IP they have to spend to cast their nanos, ect. ect. ect.

    When you guys see things like the perk docs, or receive information on the rebalancing, it's important to understand that we're not going to change one or two things - There are massive changes incoming to the overall balance of numbers that professions receive, to make them more viable across the board. What you may perceive as an issue with the announced changes will also more than likely be addressed as we go through and fix the overarching numbers spread for the entire game.

    There's more to The Great Rebalancing than just tweaking a couple of items/perks/nanos. A whole lot more.
    I can understand the standpoint that a lotta people have, in that given the current game mechanics and "balance" (and I use the term loosely), yes - Some of the changes we're looking at making don't really seem like they make any sense. But what's important to remember is that the current "balance" (again used about as loosely as possible) will not be the balance (not used loosely) that exists after we're done. When things like HP get adjusted downward, there are *other* adjustments incoming which will help to offset that fact. When nanos like Rage are altered, there will be adjustments to other toolsets which will counteract any loss.

    Our end goal is to put all the professions on an even playing ground again. To get AO to a place of balance that it hasn't seen since before Notum Wars was released. It will be a lot of work. It will be hard. But we do have a goal in mind, and with the help of our Professionals and player base giving feedback, we're very enthusiastic about our chances of getting there in the end. =)
    Brad L. McAtee / Kintaii
    Former Senior AO Designer & Jack of All Trades
    (2007 - 2012)
    ~~ Twitter :: Facebook :: Norse Noir ~~

  15. #75
    Thanks Kintaii. I guess what I'm struggling with here is the lack of concrete numbers. Losing HP is a bad thing in PvM, but if there are other adjustments to broaden our defensive toolset it could turn out to be better.

    Perhaps it would be better to talk about what the devs would like to achieve with these changes and work on the specifics from there. From what I see in these changes, I believe the devs think we are situationally too powerful. Do the devs feel that some PvM encounters too easy when there's an enf, doc and soldier/engi providing reflects? Do they feel we get out of sticky situations too easily in PvP? Is our alpha-and-flee PvP style not fitting in with the direction the devs want to take? These are the common complaints I hear about enfs.

    Are you able to list some of the dev concerns with enforcer gameplay and we can discuss those?

    I want to help with my experiences with the game, Kintaii. But from vague change descriptions, I can only give vague responses.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by madridd View Post
    I'm not implying its your fault harios, its just as much funcom's fault as anyone. But you have to admit these proposed changes are as if someone rolled an enf, got it to level 200, talked to a couple other profs to see what they don't like about end game enfs and then said "Ok i've got it...i know how to fix enf class"
    I know, that was mostly a response to Kink
    But there is a reason why funcom recruited some new professionals.
    This isn the most important time for professionals since 2+ years.
    Have some faith in the professionals and funcom..
    Besides that all you can do is giving your view on the changes.
    You did that.. and believe me the professionals will relay that to Funcom.
    And don't forget... funcom reads these forums.. just look at Kintaii
    Harios - [Enforcer] cookies 220/30
    Advass - [Adventurer] nerf 220/21
    Wackios - [Shade] gankzsz 220/16
    Soldios - [Soldier] FA Burst 220/22
    Docios - [Doctor] healsplxz 220/20
    Cratios - [Bureaucrat] tape 220/19
    Proud Board Member of Dark Front Cookies >> Bacon, remember that!

  17. #77
    Sure. Remove SL ess / Take away our HP, Nerf rage because aparently its just to damn op, may aswell lower our AR some more, take away absorbs, and challenger to. and slowly make enfo's the worst profession. everyone complains saying enfo's are way to OP and blah blah blah, Thats not the case, any profession can be OP if you know what your doing. if the player using the enforcer knows what he is doing and has all the right gear. then ofc he will be op and you will fail to kill them!
    Nerfing HP is just stupid. i hope you nerf it so bad that 5 enfo's will be needed for raids,
    you talk about balancing and making every porfession equal....well your doing it wrong...your nerfing the wrong professions, and nerfing what doesnt need to be!.
    it comes down to gear / and ability to use your gear and toolset.
    most enfo's have maybe 28k hp without SL ess. PvP enforcers that is that use CC, why nerf HP more?
    Have you ever tried to duel a soldier?
    HP if vital to even coming close to beating one if your an enforcer, nerf HP and no enfo will ever win another duel against a soldier again,
    your nerfing all the things that keep enforcers alive. why not nerf damage output on AS and FA or something. if your nerfing enfo hp and hp buffs. the so called "Tanks" arent going to be tanking anything but a few maggots while they rot in the ground.....Kill the enforcer profession if thats what you want, gonna need to fine another profession to class as "The Tank" now....Cause it wont be Enforcers anymore.....
    "Lucifer ... angel of light
    Cast below god of ice
    Ruling hell unholy trinity
    The traitors freeze for all eternity
    Lucifer ... betrayer of god
    Tormentor ruthless and cold
    Judas' screaming here in agony
    The traitors freeze for all eternity"

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Genele View Post
    We will not nerf enforcer health that much. The main target for this nerf is Mongo's Ultra Improved Behemoth. It will be lowered, this will mainly affect PVM and duels. On the other hand it is likely that we will lower the level requirement on the other SL essence nano programs.

    The rage cooldown will be balanced with the new root/snare durations for pvp so the lockout will not be longer than 8-15 seconds.
    only thing that the OP said that will be good, is filling the huge 70 levels gap that enfos currently have in agg-taking ability, with new mongo nanos.

    nerfing enfo SL ess is BAD. why? because enfos ONLY defense is huge hp and some aad. if we arent given something else to defend ourselves, we rather delete char and forget about enf cuz it will SUX.
    liars are the real losers

    Truth >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ALL

  19. #79
    Yep Getting my delete character button ready for next patch..
    then it'll be the Remove Subscription button next.
    Nerf enfo's.

    Lose alot of players.
    "Lucifer ... angel of light
    Cast below god of ice
    Ruling hell unholy trinity
    The traitors freeze for all eternity
    Lucifer ... betrayer of god
    Tormentor ruthless and cold
    Judas' screaming here in agony
    The traitors freeze for all eternity"

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Kintaii View Post
    I've posted this in... er... well, at this point nearly every rebalancing thread out there, but I figure it's worth repeating over here as well.



    I can understand the standpoint that a lotta people have, in that given the current game mechanics and "balance" (and I use the term loosely), yes - Some of the changes we're looking at making don't really seem like they make any sense. But what's important to remember is that the current "balance" (again used about as loosely as possible) will not be the balance (not used loosely) that exists after we're done. When things like HP get adjusted downward, there are *other* adjustments incoming which will help to offset that fact. When nanos like Rage are altered, there will be adjustments to other toolsets which will counteract any loss.

    Our end goal is to put all the professions on an even playing ground again. To get AO to a place of balance that it hasn't seen since before Notum Wars was released. It will be a lot of work. It will be hard. But we do have a goal in mind, and with the help of our Professionals and player base giving feedback, we're very enthusiastic about our chances of getting there in the end. =)

    I realise you dont want to give out to much informatio.
    But generalising and expecting each profession community to give constructive ideas/critisism isnt going to happen.
    With what were seeing now it sucks big time nerf for Enf.
    Maybe if we could see the bigger picture on all the changes, instead of dribbles and drabs, we could give better opinions.
    Big "T"
    President of Nocturnal Fear

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