Please Funcom, stop crippling agents endgame-perks

[Ebondevil]

There is no real balance gain in crippling these perks for damage.

Statistcily, many attacks and specials do more damage on a much faster recycle, so... "balance".

You're making a big fuzz about nothing.

How many of those attacks and specials can be queued up to hit what would otherwise be 4-5 high damage perks in under 10 seconds as well as Aimed Shot and Fling on top.

Sorry but just because there are more powerful on shorter recharge doesn't mean so many can be used in quick succession.

To be perfectly honest I personally wouldn't mind seeing the recharge on Assassinate and Concussive Shot halved along with the damage on them as well so we could use them more often, they'd be less dangerous for an Alpha and better for DD.

Faster recharge lower damage perks, like The Shot's becoming are generally better for DD than high damage slow recharge perks.

[Cyberleet]

How many of those attacks and specials can be queued up to hit what would otherwise be 4-5 high damage perks in under 10 seconds

Whats the point? Advocating for damage-reduction some more?

Sorry but just because there are more powerful on shorter recharge doesn't mean so many can be used in quick succession.

Because thats what I claimed hm...

To be perfectly honest I personally wouldn't mind seeing the recharge on Assassinate and Concussive Shot halved along with the damage on them

Very intresting, I on the other is against having our damage perks loosing the current damage-capacity on hit.

Faster recharge lower damage perks, like The Shot's becoming are generally better for DD than high damage slow recharge perks.

Depends entirely on the values.

But yes to changing the recharge on perks of course, <3 Devil


PS/

The Shot will not be diferent (- debuff) any other AI-perk opening mechanicly, speedy, or damage output. Yay!

[tweeeek]

the damage reduction is insignificant compared to the increased execution times and removed reqs from some of the perks

[Ebondevil]

Because thats what I claimed hm...

Just pointing out the information you neglected to mention, which is rather important regarding the alpha potential of the perks in comparison to other attacks.

Very intresting, I on the other is against having our damage perks loosing the current damage-capacity on hit.

Of course you are, you seem to want everything, in particular you seem to wanta strong Alpha after the changes. In addition you don't seem to want to have the Agent perks or the Agent tool-set balanced fairly with others.

The Shot will not be diferent (- debuff) any other AI-perk opening mechanicly, speedy, or damage output. Yay!

That depends on if the rest of the AI perks remain usable from concealment, which I doubt. Anyway, why should Agent perks vary from other perks, having it executable from sneak is a big upgrade in itself.

[Tlatoani]

It seems that the primary concern is that for a "fix" to the agent end-game perks, this seems more like a "balance" (trading damage for easier application) rather than an outright repair (simply changing requirements to use without touching anything else).

The statement above has no real purpose other than to give a clear reason as to why the thread exists. Mainly: If all the problems with the profession are addressed in the same way (give/take) rather than fix the broken things outright, the -1% dpm will become -10% as each individual fix comes with a dd nerf.

I in no way support this as I'm all for using the perks more often, but understanding the post may help prevent the knee-jerk reaction of "1% nerf is nothing compared to better usage, if agents are this greedy, maybe they should get nothing," Bottom line is that Lletah isn't trying to be greedy/asking for the world, just asking "why nerf the dpm by 1% if it's a fix", particularly when most people seem to agree that it's an insignificant amount either way. And if it's a rebalance instead of a fix...well again, that's the real point of contention, not the damage specifically.

Not to quell debate or anything, as that's all healthy. Just hoping to clarify the actual argument.

So concise and truthful, yet nobody will "get it" not even the OP, and this stupid worthless discussion will go on until moderators close it down

[Cyberleet]

Just pointing out the information you neglected to mention, which is rather important regarding the alpha potential of the perks in comparison to other attacks.

So we can possibly alpha medium hp mobs faster than anyone else, ok. Got ya!

I think we're talking about 2 diferent things here. PvP- alpha and PvM -damage.
The damageoutput in pvp will not be anything more than 30% regardles of the attack.

It's not "rather important" in retrospect of what I wrote.

In pvp, we already have alphas that is more than comparable to agent-alpha.



I get your opinion, but I and others love the cribbling feeling of having hostile shade/agent sneaking around us.

AO should have that

Of course you are, you seem to want everything,

Objection sir!

The diference between me and you is that I want damage-penalty on mimic doc, not endgame perks.

in particular you seem to wanta strong Alpha after the changes. In addition you don't seem to want to have the Agent perks or the Agent tool-set balanced fairly with others.

This is _very_ constructive posting dear Devil. :>

But yes! Of course I want agent to have a strong alpha, the stealth-alpha even! With reworked escape-tools.

Tho I want this to be balanced fairly with others and that is in addition with my FP and pvm-concerns exactly why I am so much against the crippling of agent endgame perks, which is an entirely unreasonable thing to do and the fact that I can see from far we're walking straight into a new era of misdesigns.

The intention was for 2 of these to land in pvp and pvm as they were, it just didn't work due to the execution-mechanics, which are now getting the belated fix (along with damage-nerf, M150-nerf, AS-limitations, AR-reduction on our most important perks etc...) at last.

I suspect the damage-reduction is them drawing drastic conclusions on first sight without substantial insight in how this plays out and just suddenly changing the damage-capacity on our endgame perks to a lesser value anyway clearly lacks any valid and realistic reasoning as far as I can tell, especially in relation to the comparable damage, percentwise in pvp and value-wise/statisticly in pvm.

Yeh, "thought I rolled an agent, found out it was assault-doctor" all over again.

Anyway, why should Agent perks vary from other perks,

This is just getting silly, and I think I will let other posters explain it to you.

Diversity and professions will be keywords.

having it executable from sneak is a big upgrade in itself.

It's not, it's a rollback with a damage-reduction added to it. Say it how it is

[Ebondevil]

So we can possibly alpha medium hp mobs faster than anyone else, ok. Got ya!

I think we're talking about 2 diferent things here. PvP- alpha and PvM -damage.
The damageoutput in pvp will not be anything more than 30% regardles of the attack.

It's not "rather important" in retrospect of what I wrote.

There's a big difference between the perks hitting the 30% caps on everyone in PvP and the perks not hitting those 30% caps, the damage reductions may well stop the perks from hitting those caps, this is especially true in The Shot's case, that's why the changes are significant. Until we see the perks on test though it's hard to say one way or the other.

The diference between me and you is that I want damage-penalty on mimic doc, not endgame perks.

You say that but you really don't have a clue what I want. Though FYI I did forward that along to the developers while I was still the professional. To be perfectly honest though I can't remember if that was before or after you first brought it up, so I'll assume it was inspired by you.

As for wanting the nerf on damage, I honestly don't want the damage to be reduced, unlike you however I can see a number of valid reasons for it to be reduced and can accept those reductions based on how much the Perks have been improved, I'm not being greedy and wanting the huge improvements with no cost to balance them out.

This is _very_ constructive posting dear Devil. :>

But yes! Of course I want agent to have a strong alpha, the stealth-alpha even! With reworked escape-tools.

When everyone's getting the alpha potential reduced, it's not balanced for Agents to keep it, plain and simple. All indications are that Alpha Online is going away.

Tho I want this to be balanced fairly with others and that is in addition with my FP and pvm-concerns exactly why I am so much against the crippling of agent endgame perks, which is an entirely unreasonable thing to do and the fact that I can see from far we're walking straight into a new era of misdesigns.

That's what you don't or can't see, the perks aren't being crippled, quite the opposite.

I suspect the damage-reduction is them drawing drastic conclusions on first sight without substantial insight in how this plays out and just suddenly changing the damage-capacity on our endgame perks to a lesser value anyway clearly lacks any valid and realistic reasoning as far as I can tell, especially in relation to the comparable damage, percentwise in pvp and value-wise/statisticly in pvm.

Then you've pretty much ignored every explanation I've given you or refuse to accept them. I suspect the damage reduction is due to the development team knowing exactly they're doing.

It's not, it's a rollback with a damage-reduction added to it. Say it how it is

Sil stated without a doubt that it was not meant to work from concealment, we may not like it, we may have petitioned against it, but we lost the argument, the perk was not meant to work from concealment. It is being upgraded to work from concealment, that's not a fix. That's a new game director with a development team more in tune with the players than ever before upgrading Agent endgame perks. I can safely assume that as far as the previous Game directors were concerned there was nothing wrong with any of the perks, otherwise they'd have been 'fixed' years ago due to the requested changes having been on the Agent wishlist for years.

The small loss of damage on some of those perks is more than a reasonable price to pay for the changes and upgrades to the perks.

[somenamehere]

Sil stated without a doubt that it was not meant to work from concealment, we may not like it, we may have petitioned against it, but we lost the argument, the perk was not meant to work from concealment. It is being upgraded to work from concealment, that's not a fix.

It was working from concealment and then it didn't and the it did etc and then Sil said we are the best pvp profession by any possible measurement so we needed to nerf it and get a few goodies along the way .... ri comes to mind.

[Ebondevil]

It was working from concealment and then it didn't and the it did etc and then Sil said we are the best pvp profession by any possible measurement so we needed to nerf it and get a few goodies along the way .... ri comes to mind.

Doesn't really matter though, some of us may consider it not working from sneak broken, but the powers that be at the time didn't, any change from that is an upgrade.

Whether you accept it or not doesn't make much difference.

If you want to insist that the perks were broken then one could argue that the reason they weren't fixed before was because the damage on them was too high, either way, the perks have been fixed or upgraded, and the cost has been a small amount of damage. Don't expect to get something for nothing.

[mr_road]

You listed Death Strike as dealing: Projectile -8776 .. -18298
When Auno lists Death strike as dealing: Projectile -6619 .. -12293
A 2k-6k difference.

http://auno.org/ao/db.php?cmd=search&name=death+strike

The 6 entries for Death Strike in the Armor section refer to the damage templates used for the perk.

The template shown for perk damage when linked from the perk profile page is usually the first ql 1 one - which would be used for a Rifle skill of 0.5.

The first ql 500 template is used for a Rifle skill of 1000
The second ql 500 template is used for a Rifle skill of 2000
The third ql 500 template is used for a Rifle skill of 3000

The actual damage for the perk is interpolated between those three templates.

[Hacre]

Won't Agent DPS go up, with AS being repeatable in PvM, not to mention the secondary Backstab type attack?

As well as the stun/low HP % reliant perks no longer being stun/low HP % reliant?

Genuine questions as I don't have an Agent. From an outsider perspective the complaint seems much ado about nothing and I see nothing "crippling" about anything.

[Ebondevil]

Won't Agent DPS go up, with AS being repeatable in PvM, not to mention the secondary Backstab type attack?

Yes

As well as the stun/low HP % reliant perks no longer being stun/low HP % reliant?

Yes

Genuine questions as I don't have an Agent. From an outsider perspective the complaint seems much ado about nothing and I see nothing "crippling" about anything.

From an Agent perspective the complaint seems much ado about nothing and I see nothing "crippling" about them.

[Marinegent]

Won't Agent DPS go up, with AS being repeatable in PvM, not to mention the secondary Backstab type attack?

As well as the stun/low HP % reliant perks no longer being stun/low HP % reliant?

Genuine questions as I don't have an Agent. From an outsider perspective the complaint seems much ado about nothing and I see nothing "crippling" about anything.

1. It will go up immensely.

2. Yes, which makes these perks USABLE now.

3. Your right, and reasoning with letah is like talking to a wall.

[Snoopdooog]

/cry

[Klodovik]

Almost unrelated to the topic, and a generic change. ^_^

It has everything to do with your topic, reusable AS means no need for huge damage perks. And BTW, perks will deal more damage now, because you will be able to actually land them now.

[Chrys]

It has everything to do with your topic, reusable AS means no need for huge damage perks. And BTW, perks will deal more damage now, because you will be able to actually land them now.

But but some pplz need every last drop of damage for ganking greens and greys

[Cyberleet]

Won't Agent DPS go up, with AS being repeatable in PvM, not to mention the secondary Backstab type attack?

All Aimed Shot users, only the perks is profession specific.

And as you see, they are indeed reducing the damage-capacity on each of the endgame-perks.

So, *perspective* would leaving the values as is also help agent dps?

Statisticly they already do less damage than Full Auto when landing, which recycle faster and peak-diference is only 2-3k.

And BTW, perks will deal more damage now, because you will be able to actually land them now.

Au contrere, for the first time we loose landrate on stun and snare-perks infact.

I can safely assume that as far as the previous Game directors were concerned there was nothing wrong with any of the perks, otherwise they'd have been 'fixed' years ago due to the requested changes having been on the Agent wishlist for years.

Sil changed it, the other gm's and GD's confirmed that the perk was not bugged or that using it from stealth wasn't exploiting, and you should remember the discussions on the forum from the ninja-change aswell.

So, there it is.

That's what you don't or can't see, the perks aren't being crippled, quite the opposite.

Not true.

The Shot will be crippled.
Assassinate will be crippled.
Death Strike will be crippled.
Snipeshot-changes is not really improvement.

Thats our endgame-perks, I hope they reconsider the changes and just fix them as is.

You ignored all explanations or refuse to accept them for some reason, but yeah, someone that actually post misconceptions on perks or don't know better would probably not listen to reason. And I who actually corrected my first post, how stupid of me.

Whether you accept it or not doesn't make much difference.

Unrelated, but just because a GD has definition-powers doesn't make it true.

I think we should focus on facts.


And again, please Funcom.

Stop the crippling of agent endgame-perks!

[Hacre]

All Aimed Shot users, only the perks is profession specific.

No one else that uses AS hits 13k ASes in PvM as often as Agents do.

Oh look, a change that benefits Agents the most.

[Cyberleet]

No one else that uses AS hits 13k ASes in PvM as often as Agents do.

Oh look, a change that benefits Agents the most.

Whats the point? Are you trying to tell me something that doesn't really relate to the topic at hand? ^_^

Seen it, disagree w claims and explained why. =)

[Parranoid1]

when i looked thru the new perks i saw the agent changes and i thought that they were a damn sight better....

basically now ur finisher moves that will have slightly less damage, yes, but much higher availability and usage. these perks still hit around what shade top DD perks do...

Piercing Skill 2000: Damage: -6645 .. -13541
Piercing Skill 3000: Damage: -7059 .. -15109

Hecatomb (the best DD attack that isnt MA skill dependant....)

Damage: -6280..-13222

Assassinate

damage different seems minimal to me, yeah its a bit lower sure, but ...cmon they are good.

Also the attack speed of them have been lowered from 5 secs to 2 secs. thats a damn nice decrease to very large DD perks, where it seems like everyone else DD perks have increased in cast time. How is this crippling?

also the "target needs to be below 15% HP" requirement has been removed or changed. the assassinate has had it removed and instead had "requierd to have concussive shot running" which is fine, as it can be used in a combo in ur alpha as now THEY CAN BE AT ANY HP.

so? crippled? no, i dont think so

Death strike has also had the HP% altered, from <15% to <50% allowing you to use it more frequently as well as the lower defence check from 120% to 100%. Seem crippled to you? couse i dont see it.

The Shot is next. first off its back to being able to be used under sneak, so no more popping u out of sneak on starting it as i believe is what is happening now. Yes the damage has been halved but allowing u to use it from sneak and ALSO having its RECHARGE halved, Also has had its cast time reduced from 5 seconds to 2 seconds.... Dosnt seem crippled to me, seems like an alteration that will help agents.

So yeah, it seems to me like what agents are getting is an mostly overall improvement.