Please Funcom, stop crippling agents endgame-perks

[Cyberleet]

For years agents have requested a higher damage output, a fix to misdesigned perks and higher speed on some perks.
Now we get changes that is infact the exact oposite.

Less damage, new perk-chains that slows us down and a significant damage-reduction on endgame-perks.







Assassinate

Projectile -8376 .. -17556

Proposed change: -6280.. -13222 (less than FA/SA etc)


Death Strike

Projectile -8776 .. -18298

Proposed change: -5102.. -11338 ONLY if AS-skill is 3000


The Shot

Energy -6500 .. -8000

Proposed change: -3664.. -4414

The Shot

The perk will again be stealth-friendly as intended and how it originally were, but faster and crippled for damage.

Now, to the agents that want speed:

I am not that overly concerned with speeding up this partiqular perk.
When we execute this from sneak, it's balance in my eyes to have a a little window to fail as our target can run away from us, forcing us to unsneak and follow and thus make our opponents aware of incoming damage.

It adds a bit of thrill and exitement waiting the original time for the perk to land, and strategy.

Now, a faster The Shot with same damage is of course prefered.

Assassinate and Death Strike

We wanted these perks to be fixed for the damage-output, end of story.

Full Auto, other specials, nukes etc does almost same damage as the peak (yes, most the time it is under 10k damage infact) of these perks _ which as for now mostly can be used in endgame pvm-encounters like APF, Biodome, _ and they recycle MUCH FASTER.

Agents have been known for high burst/explosive- direct damage in pvm/pvp.
30% every 11 sec in pvp of dd that most players feel if opening fail, this is also why agent is high-priority target :>

For example The Shot/Concussive/AS/Fling and Consentration-Crit opening. (We still loose agg to most other dd's).


Still, in pvp we only got a fair chance to kill good single-targets fast using melee-weapons...somethings wrong.

The class is seem designed for it and it co-relates with consentration and escape-lines.




As Aimed Shot pre-sl was ment for a high-damage opener (and must be seen in relation to agent-role, mob/player hp and the damage of other classes back then) these two perks were ment for finalising damage and looks like a continuation of agent signature high damage with "around" the same recharge aimed shot had, AND THE INTENTION WAS FOR THESE PERKS TO LAND WITH THE DAMAGE OUTPUT THEY ALREADY HAVE!

It was a cool concept, but it didn't work so years later you fix the execution but reduce the damage, what for?

In pvp, they will still do helluva high damage, close to cap or cap.
In pvm we will just be able to use them more often every 3 mins or so, a higher AS in some sense.

A fix to bad perks (that actually works in practice many places as opposed to what many claims, including pvp-scenarios. so this IS a nerf for many who actually finds use to these two perks) is a good thing, thanks Funcom, but a direct damage-reduction on endgame perks is something very diferent and require an additional reasoning, explain!

Agent-attacks should do more damage than soldier-specials, who got the taunts and who got the detaunts?

And that is also the paper-design. Agent got the best damage-perks. No exception. This is a groundbreaking change.

Please leave the damage alone, repair them and fix the % requirements, but jeez!

I am also not troubled by having these perks at same speed if you speed up other perks.

Like called shot, pinpoint strike (at max dd) and snipeshots.

Snipeshots

Current damage:

1: Projectile -3145 .. -7841
2: Projectile -5608 .. -12416 (or a little less, depending on other perks).

Now these are crippled too into 3k-7k damage or 4-10k, but then they need to be a part of a chain to do this high damage so they are actually not speeded up either as we have requested for a long time.

As an addition to that you need 3000 Aimed Shot skill for this high-damage scaling.

Most agents will actually loose this damage with this change, as it is a DD- decrease.

You also loose out on a lot of damage by ditching the crit-gear for gaining the damage-capacity as that gives you low AS-skill, the gear you get so high Aimed Shot numbers in is actually pvp-gear mostly for offensive agents.

But in pvp, everything is limited to 30%.

Funcom, wth? Are you making agent into assault doctors?

Leave the damage untouched and just fix the perks, we forgive you for that The Shot fail.

Funcom, you are actually phuking with the core-group of AO-fans and change legacy-features in professions.

We did NOT request this, get a grip devs!

What exactly is your concern? That our detaunt-tools actually will make sense in pvm? Right, riiiiight....



I just fail to see how this is "balance" in any way.

We're so low on dd, even when buffed to the teeth compared to other classes and you reduce the damage more...

Some lame evade-perk inc since you fail (miserably) to re-design agent unique toolset to become effective?

Bear in mind many people plays this class for the design and description. And a cactus to you FC!

Stop the crippling of agent endgame perks:

1. Statisticly they do less damage than specials like Full Auto, Sneak-Attack at endgame.
2. The cap, which rarely are reached, is only 2-3k above FA on two SL-ones
3. Other attacks, like special-attacks/nukes, that OD's these or are comparable are not difficult to use.
4. These other attacks recycle much faster whereas some have lesser def-checks.
5. Other comparable attacks are often instant.
6. The Shot will speedwise, damagewise and mechanicly not differ from generic AI-perk openings.

[Marinegent]

I'm a little pissed about The Shot... but any agent who doesn't see that the reworked mechanics of Assassinate / death strike is ANYTHING BUT A NERF is a complete idiot.

I've never even been able to USE death strike before because of the ridiculous requirements on it.

I applaud these FIXES.

[Ebondevil]

To sum up Lletah is complaining of a loss of around 4k Damage per minute which is about 2% of an Agents output.

And completely forgetting that Agents will be getting a reusable Aimed shot which will more than likely churn out an extra 60k-78k Damage per minute for a net gain of at least 56k Damage per Minute. Agent PvM damage is getting a considerable boost, not to mention Death Strike and Assassinate finally becoming useful.

Seriously, the minimal loss of damage on these slow perks is not something to worry about, or even care about.

In no way conceivable is the loss of the damage on these perks going to have any serious detrimental effect on Agents Damage output.

[Cyberleet]

What Ebon is talking about is damage moved around and a damage-reduction on perks.

So this so called "considerable boost" is in reality not a boost at all, infact a significant damage-nerf.


You hit Corrupted Hiisi Berserker with nanobots for 8376 points of projectile damage.
You successfully perform an Assassinate attack.

Yeah, and they gonna reduce the damage even further.

And completely forgetting that Agents will be getting a reusable Aimed shot

How silly, when we already can AS every 11th second, depending on number of mobs/circumstanced of course.

That they officially allow a mechanic for re-using aimed shot is about time.

Seriously, the minimal loss of damage on these slow perks is not something to worry about, or even care about.

You care alot about nerfing agent damage, and this is exactly what it is.

Not touching the damage on these perks is not something to worry about, or even care about.

We're walking straight into new mis-designs and all you do is ch/evade-lobbying by trolling my threads with absolutely clueless and wrongfull advocating against agents that doesn't play with /docmode on.

In no way conceivable is the loss of the damage on these perks going to have any serious detrimental effect on Agents Damage output.

It is, get some clue. They are nerfing the damage on our endgame perks for no apparant reason.

Thats a fact that will remain.

[Klodovik]

It is, get some clue. They are nerfing the damage on our endgame perks for no apparant reason.

Thats a fact that will remain.

Reusable AS is a good reason for itself, even though it's not the only one.

[Cyberleet]

It's really important for some people to support agent endgame perks getting marginalised. wth? -_-

Reusable AS is a good reason for itself, even though it's not the only one.

Why?

Oh, here we go again with dodging the question I betcha.

Am really intrested in seeing a fair argumentation why keeping the perks intact would disbalance pvm.

If it's only 2% (nonsense) whats the problem?

[Marinegent]

Think of it this way lletah.

Death Strike.. was COMPLETELY. UNUSABLE. BEFORE.

You might lose a few minimum damage on Assassinate, but you will be able to USE death strike now, and still execute BOTH in LESS TIME than JUST assassinate in it's current state.

/thread.

[Cyberleet]

Think of it this way lletah.

Death Strike.. was COMPLETELY. UNUSABLE. BEFORE.

No, it wasn't "completely" unusable before, neither in pvp or pvm.

What they are doing with proposals so far is reducing the damage-output on our endgame perks and overall damage.

And they have absolutely no reason for doing so.

[sultryvoltron]

No, it wasn't "completely" unusable before, neither in pvp or pvm.

What they are doing with proposals so far is reducing the damage-output on our endgame perks and overall damage.

And they have absolutely no reason for doing so.

Yes, it was.

It required that the Agent not use Concussive Shot on the mob because once CS stuns the mob, it cannot be stunned a second time by the Agent.

[srompu]

Letah is a PvP-nubi, and so thinks AS has always been reusable and dreams of aphaing things.
Ebon is a PvM-nubi, and so thinks Death Strike has been unusable and dreams of high DPS.
And there shall be war between their descendants even unto the twelfth generation.


They're both right, but in different ways. I'm personally a PvP-biatch and I'm apalled at our horrible perk damage and am trying to concoct ways to crank out 24k damage in 3 seconds through a reflect and possibly a NM absorb while UBTed. I'm also very happy to be able to finally OD my green fixer with my Agent while SKing, though. When finals are over I'll try to make some sense of the perk doc damage and see what exactly they've done.

[erozc]

So, how many other professions have perks that do comparable damage to the proposed agent perks of the future? Obviously shades will. How about the others?

[sultryvoltron]

So, how many other professions have perks that do comparable damage to the proposed agent perks of the future? Obviously shades will. How about the others?

Anyone who uses Starfall?
Doctor? Trader? There's more.

[Sonikeep]

You forgot NR8 perk
Annihilate Notum Molecules
Target
SpecialHit Health Radiation -11752 .. -23826
if Affected by Notum Overflow running

Target
SpecialHit Health Radiation -8814 .. -17869
if Affected by Notum Overflow not running

[Klodovik]

Anyone who uses Starfall?

So, that's 3 perk hits for SF (that still has to be chained) against what, 8 potential medium/heavy hitters for agent?

How is that comparable?

[Ciex]

tl;dr

Is it so difficult to understand that people dont enjoy beeing instaganked?

[Ebondevil]

Assassinate

Projectile -8376 .. -17556

Proposed change: -6280.. -13222 (less than FA/SA etc)


Death Strike

Projectile -8776 .. -18298

Proposed change: -5102.. -11338 ONLY if AS-skill is 3000


The Shot

Energy -6500 .. -8000

Proposed change: -3664.. -4414

Assassinate: 2k damage loss on a 2 min recharge perks, 1k Damage per Minute lost.

Death Strike: Looking at Auno and aodb.us the damage figures Lletah posted are vastly incorrect, sucks to me on my previous calculations for trusting her impartiality in the matter.
Death Strike: Projectile -6619 .. -12293
Proposed change: -4578.. -11338. (with Aimed Shot between 2000 and 3000.)
2k damage loss on a 1 min 30 recharge perk, 1.33k Damager per Minute lost.

The Shot: 3k damage loss on a 2 min recharge perk, which is being reduced to a 1 min recharge, 0.4k Damage per minute gain.

Total: 1.9k Damage per minute lost.

As for Agent damage and the use of these perks in PvM:
Agent damage output with Ofab Cobra (not tested the Xan of Angst yet) around 203k Damage per minute, with both Assassinate and Death strike actually landing which is very rare. Figures taken Solo on a High HP, High AC mob which could be stunned, hence why Death strike could work.

Agent damage output with considerably worse AR with Ofab Tiger around 201k damage per minute without using any of the currently rifle locked perks. Figures taken on the same mob as the previous damage.

In a team, even in Pande, Death strike will not land, ever, it won't land on any bosses either and it is currently completely useless in Team PvM.

In a team, Assassinate will land on occasion on a high health Hiisi, not the low health ones though, and timing has to be perfect, any other agent using the perk will prevent other Agents using it as well, so while not as useless as Death Strike it's still pretty useless, the current defence check on it at 120% also means it doesn't land reliably on bosses. This is getting reduced to 100% which will make the perk easier to land even with the attack check being moved to rifle.

Overall the above calculations with the cobra are in best conditions using the perks.

What Ebon is talking about is damage moved around and a damage-reduction on perks.

So this so called "considerable boost" is in reality not a boost at all, infact a significant damage-nerf.


You hit Corrupted Hiisi Berserker with nanobots for 8376 points of projectile damage.
You successfully perform an Assassinate attack.

Yeah, and they gonna reduce the damage even further.

What I'm talking about is a negligible reduction in an Agents damage over time capabilities, 1.9k Damage per minute from the three perks mentioned is nothing compared to 203k damage per minute, it's less than 1% damage loss per minute under perfect conditions.

After the changes they'll both be usable nearly all the time, which alone will negate the need for the perfect conditions mentioned above, and make other weapon setups more viable as well, which increases the damage over time of Agents wishing to use Bows or Pistols.

All in all:

• The Execution time on all the perks is being increased, and as a result the re-use time is getting reduced by a few seconds.
• The landing rates of Death Strike and Assassinate are being vastly improved so they will actually be usable in pretty much any conditions, not just Perfect and/or rare conditions.
• The Defence check on Assassinate is being improved from 120% to 100%.
• The Shot is going to be usable from sneak.
• The Shot is going to have the recharge time halved and as a result deal more damage over time.

And the cost for all these improvements: 1.9k Damage per minute. 0.95% of an Agents output in Perfect conditions. I consider that negligible. In no way conceivable is it "a significant damage-nerf."

Edit: What the damage reduction does achieve however is to reduce the spike damage available from these perk in PvP, that alone is a good reason to reduce the damage considering Funcom seems to be trying to reduce the power of Alphas in the game and have PvP last a little longer.

[Darkkblood]

this "nerf" sounds like a pretty good boost to me. The only thing this will affect from what i've read is a bit of pvp alpha power. Also this is one change of many you might make up that damage lost in a different balancing phase. They've only showed us the perk changes so far they still haven't rolled out the nano changes. Is it just me but do most playing think balance involves giving stuff but not taking anything away?

[Cyberleet]

First, balance-conflicts should discriminate ch-clanners imo.

Regarding sincere balance-concerns, the solution is not reducing the damage _which only rarely do those little 3k more than FA_ on these two perks that has an recharge far longer than recharge on specials/nukes/MA-crits etc,



If other perks like pps/called shot/snipeshots execute faster I think it's fair and balanced that we have high dd-perks that execute a bit slow.



Soldier has taunts, agents got detaunts.
These perks however, most the times does far less damage than Full Auto.

Recharge, 2 minutes, 10 seconds. Whats the concern FC?

Is this some overexaggeration, because I can't tell. It' just entirely unreasonable.

this "nerf" sounds like a pretty good boost to me.

It does, but what it in reality is, is a significant damage nerf thats pretty much unexplainable.

The Shot has been stealthfriendly with 6500-8000 originally.
Now, it is nothing less off fuzz/nanofeast with a debuff casters don't feel too much.

Furthermore...

We loose a TON of pvm-damage by using the gear needed for 3000 AS-skill, as crit/add damage compliments us.

So this is infact just damage moved around, and not a damageboost whatsoever.

Aimed Shot, which will be reusable in pvm, is not only used by agents either.

{edited by Anarrina: switched quotes to the post you were actually responding to}

Think of it this way lletah.

Death Strike.. was COMPLETELY. UNUSABLE. BEFORE.

You might lose a few minimum damage on Assassinate, but you will be able to USE death strike now, and still execute BOTH in LESS TIME than JUST assassinate in it's current state.

/thread.

No it is not entirely correct, you could use deaths-gaze. Of course I spent time requesting these changes for a reason tho.

{edited by Anarrina: removed questioning moderation}

it's less than 1% damage loss per minute under perfect conditions.

So whats your problem then? Or anyone else pro-nerf for that matter.

All in all:

• The Execution time on all the perks is being increased, and as a result the re-use time is getting reduced by a few seconds.
• The landing rates of Death Strike and Assassinate are being vastly improved so they will actually be usable in pretty much any conditions, not just Perfect and/or rare conditions.
• The Defence check on Assassinate is being improved from 120% to 100%.
• The Shot is going to be usable from sneak.
• The Shot is going to have the recharge time halved and as a result deal more damage over time.

This changes you refer to were already suggested by me a long time ago, stick to the topic.

They cripple the damageoutput on our endgame perks, I say knock it off.

Edit: What the damage reduction does achieve however is to reduce the spike damage available from these perk in PvP, that alone is a good reason to reduce the damage considering Funcom seems to be trying to reduce the power of Alphas in the game and have PvP last a little longer.

1. The damage will still be spiky in pvp.

2. Just because everyone shouldn't be able to alpha like agent doesn't mean our traditional way of dealing damage should be changed.



We wanted these two perks to be fixed for the damage that they had.

Funcom, stop the crippling of agent endgame perks!

so wait...am i supposed to feel bad for agents?

What made you come up with that?

[Cyberleet]

Looking at Auno and aodb.us the damage figures Lletah posted are vastly incorrect, sucks to me on my previous calculations for trusting her impartiality in the matter.

I used the numbers in the documentation, anyway:


{edited by Anarrina: removed non-constructive comment}

[sultryvoltron]

So, that's 3 perk hits for SF (that still has to be chained) against what, 8 potential medium/heavy hitters for agent?

How is that comparable?

Because 10k = 10k = 10k = 10k, no matter how you slice it.