Late-week update on LLTS

[aaronb]

Originally posted by DaveDread
IMHO, if the only ranged option for MA's will be bows, we need and I mean really need, a long hard and heavy look on bows and their inits. It simply cannot work they way it does now. There is not one usable bow on phys init, and even after init fix they aint exactly uberweapons. The Schyler seems like the only viable option.

I didn't realize many MAs were using bows (most to my experience are using them for an alpha strike before switching to fists). By all means, bows should be based on MA inits and fixed if they are not viable.

[_______________North]

Cz, I think your solution suits most professions.

Enforcers and adventurers (those who are still melee) will be affected tho.

I think the main question is that what do enforcers and adventurers want in return to compensate for this. Keep in mind that only enforcers are really the ones with no alternative choice. I do personally believe that adventurers are better off with ranged weapons any way, but it is just a matter of play style I suppose.

[aaronb]

Originally posted by Luxferro

You aren't the only melee class affected by roots.. and roots don't work, you can debuff them :P

That or they drop on the next shot. Sorry to those using roots as a defense point, but roots simply aren't that effective. I can chaincast roots and it won't keep a player pinned down, and I need that casting time for other things. The only people roots are really effective against are the more inexperienced players who don't realize the root breaks and stand there thinking they are still rooted.

[DaveDread]

The MA's defining ability is to have the best long term crit % (or long term damage output if you prefer). Agents, Engineers and Traders can have far better MA skill then a MA has.

Again, estimate that 50% of the population has a +9% ELLTS. 100% of the MA's have self-only crit buffs. This is a MA nerf.

This change straps ranged and melee professions to their respective places. MA traders/docs/MP's etc are caught in the MA nerf. The only melee profession that uses ranged weapon is the MA. Thus (and also for lessening the nerf for MA's) we need a melee equivalent of the LLTS, conveniently enough it already is in game: Flurry of Blows. Enhance it, and add a phys init bonus to it. One crit enhancer for ranged, one for melee.

As for roots, note that breaking root with a debuff is classified as a bug. How it works in game now is a temporary solution. I'm thinking in the longer term here, thus my concern.

MA's using bows, no you wont see many in the game these days. Mainly because bows aren't very good (read: they're crap except for specials). I don't care at all if MA's can't use flashpoint/nova/shottie/x-3's. I'm quite bothered that MA's wont be able to use crossbows or any of the hybrids with a bow component. For PvM this isnt a major problem, but for PvP it is. I want the MA's prepared for this before it happens.

[______________Hayake]

There aren't many different people posting on this thread anyways, so it would be hardpressed to assume it is the opinion of the playerbase.

Just wanted to mention a few things about the people that are posting.

I think there are about 12 people posting in favor of this nerf of whom I counted 4 Traders and 4 docs. A definite overrepresentation of these professions looking at their % of the playerbase.

2 classes already fairly uber in pvp and the 2 classes most complained about as unbalanced in pvp.

2 classes that would get an incredible boost in pvp out of this vs melee clases.

There are some soldiers too, and soldiers do have a reason to complain, so I suggest making the llts Soldier only then if you have to prevent classes from using it, at least do not hand it out as a bonus to already overpowered classes but give it to some class that needs it.

Besides that there is almost noone posting on this thread that doesn't have a llts. Therefore you get very, very limited feedback about what your general playerbase thinks of this. Seems these people are entirely forgotten in this thread.

My suggestion
a. don't nerf them at all
b. if you are interested in overall balance:
* either make them soldier only and make them drop again
* make them worthless to everyone and give soldiers some better guns.

BTW: if you decide to keep them ingame and not make any new ones drop again AT THE VERY VERY least, whatever else you may decide to do with them: make them nodrop.

[_____________Condaan]

basically we agreed that LLTS itself is not the main issue, but the critical chances that people are able to attain.

Yet more items which add to crit% are being added to the game? New armors etc.

making so that you can't efficiently stack all crit increasing stuff in the game.

That makes some sense, but depends heavily on the implementation.

How about saying that Flurry of Blows and the MA self crit buffs won't be usable with ranged weapons (except bows) due to a big Ranged Init penalty

1) Some bows, even those with a 100% bow req are still on Ranged Init.
2) In this scenario, shouldn't the Mark line work in a similar fashion to the Self Only buffs?
3) Will FoB be changed to affect PhysInit also?

the LLTS won't be usable with close combat weapons, bare handed attacks and bows due to a big penalty on Melee and Physical Init?

Please clarify this one, does this include VEs also? or just LLTS?

Who will be the losers in such a deal?

That depends on the answer to the question above. Melee users other than MAs (ie. Eng/adv/enf/MA docs) will be hit pretty hard. If FoB is changed to PhysInit also, then this is lessened somewhat for ENG/MA docs/MAs.

How much will they lose?

Very much depends on the answer above (regarding VEs). The hardest hit will be people who are a bit unconventional like Metas or Docs who use MA skill, then Adv/Enf, then MAs.

What would be reasonable compensation?

A minimum of 6 IPR points, 2 for the scope itself, and at least 4 for upping skills for a weap that will now be useless. Compensation for the loss of value is a different subject, but I'm guessing that if you make this change, as stated, there won't be any of that going on.

Will balance be better or worse?

That probably depends on your perspective. Things are 'relatively' balanced now. There are a few classes that need some love that won't be getting it from this nerf, surely. Right now, there are 'good' classes, which are essentially balanced and fun:
MAs
Fixers
Advs
Agents
Trader
Crat
MPs (could fix pet pathing, but that affects a lot of folks)

'Ok' classes that are essentially balanced, but could use more 'fun' stuff.
Enf
Doc
NT

'Need Love' classes that either don't fit their roles, or their role is just plain crappy:
Soldier

And finally, Engineers...who have the worst of it atm.

On a final note, please don't even consider this nerf as a tool for 'balancing', because it isn't. This nerf is purely and simply about reducing PvM levelling speed. In PvP, the requirements and subsequent AGG/DEF changes balance the scopes out reasonably well anyway.

You should remember a few things about PVM, though, and those are:
Everyone does ql190ish (give or take a few levels) for exp. If you were looking at a level 195ish MA, with 2 GoC (pretty rare), with a 15% scope, TTS, crat +off/def speech running, and optimized for damage output (random items that raise MA skill)...
Of course he's going to crit the hell out of the green mobs in a ql189 mission.

If you really want to put in a fix, make ql200+ missions viable for exp hunting. Make evades even more important in the 'getting critted' calculation. Raise the title caps, so folks stick to their core skills a bit more (huge mod I know). Fix the problems, not the symptoms.

You are seeing a symptom which is:
Some combinations cause too many crits.

Take a look at those combinations, and remember that not everyone has those combinations running all of the time, some of the time, or maybe even ever. I know that when I'm at a tara raid, I'm much more buffed that I ever would be in a regular exp group, and that's fine. If you make a change like this, which affects a pretty good portion of the player base, because there are .00001% of situations where .005% of the playerbase can achieve a 'potential' imbalancing situation (marginally at best). Maybe rather than nerfing this item, you could look at the core mechanics that allow it to BE in the first place?

My 2 creds,
Condaan

PS. Riv6 is a different discussion than LLTS, IMHO. If it weren't for the riv6, the pvp portion of the 'balance' argument holds even less weight. Maybe that should be handled separately?

**EDIT**
Fixed quotes.

[ragingsyph1]

"How about saying that Flurry of Blows and the MA self crit buffs won't be usable with ranged weapons (except bows) due to a big Ranged Init penalty, and the LLTS won't be usable with close combat weapons, bare handed attacks and bows due to a big penalty on Melee and Physical Init?"

Sure, WHEN and IF you fix bows to be phys init like they should
.

"Who will be the losers in such a deal? How much will they lose? What would be a reasonable compensation (in e.g. IPR points)?Will balance be better or worse?"

the losers will be pure MAs. Ok sure, you say use Flurry of Blows which uses completely different skills than a llts, and pardon my ignorance, but why would an MA need to use Flurry of Blows? Their attack speed is already at max at 150 phys init according to tests, so i don't see how a FoB could possibly compare to the benefits of an llts unless you give me a FoB that has a crit % equal to my llts. IPRs may still be in order if this is done seeing how FoB and llts use different skills. maybe if an MA doesnt get the crit bonus from the llts getting a comparable evade and/or xp bonus. not to mention the money loss.

personally if this goes through as suggested, this is one MA who will not be casting any Mark of xx on anyone for any reason

[aaronb]

Originally posted by Ragingsyph

personally if this goes through as suggested, this is one MA who will not be casting any Mark of xx on anyone for any reason

You'll last long in teams.

[ragingsyph1]

"You'll last long in teams"

glad to see that you think an MAs only value in a team is giving you a crit buff that eats up more NCU than its worth. but you're right, i'll ammend my statement, i'll only give mark of xx to people who find them and give them to me. after all, why should i go around giving people my classes signature ability when they can just use an llts to be about the same crit chance as me, especially considering the fact that, according to you, all they want from me is the crit buff anyway.

[ragingsyph1]

Hildegaard said

"You seem to think you have some sort of special right compared to new players. You don't. The only right you have is to play a game that Funcom deemed FAIR for all players"

True, it should be fair. I'm not trying to be combative here, but i'm curious as to when you bought the game. having bought the game soon after release and paying $59.95 US for it, i'd like to think that i might be able to continue to use llts' that i bought or found before they stopped dropping, instead of losing it altogether because someone who paid $19.95 for the game doesn't think it's fair. I'd like to think the the extra $40 i spent would give me something different.

You could buy one on the open market just like anyone else could.

[______________Jypsie]

Remove the scopes. Give another IPR so folks won't quit. Done.

It was a broken item. FC didn't expect Crit % to get as high as they did, time to remove them completely.

Yes, I have old school scopes. But I do know when something isn't working as intended.

Just remove em, give folks another IPR so those people that built thier characters around a broken concept (depending on constant crits) can rebuild and be done with it.

Cheers.

[aaronb]

Originally posted by Ragingsyph
"You'll last long in teams"

glad to see that you think an MAs only value in a team is giving you a crit buff that eats up more NCU than its worth. but you're right, i'll ammend my statement, i'll only give mark of xx to people who find them and give them to me. after all, why should i go around giving people my classes signature ability when they can just use an llts to be about the same crit chance as me, especially considering the fact that, according to you, all they want from me is the crit buff anyway.

This is a misinterpretation. The attitude is what will get you kicked from teams. If I have a player in my team that refuses to buff myself or anyone else, I won't hesitate to kick them, regardless of profession. This sort of attitude is a bigger problem than any nerf could be.

[aiwass777]

nerf, Cz! nerf!

By the way, I don't like this one either. LLTSes should be brought in line with Vision Enhancers as a matter of game balance, without regard to providing perks for people who wasted money on an item that they should have known would be nerfed someday.

If you give these nerfed scopes high shop sale values (1mil/ql), consider the effect when people become multiple billionaires because they may have stockpiled these things prior to the original nerf. I know that I will make about 200 million from my handful of crap scopes if this happens... think of those with MORE.

Not smart.

Just nerf them.

~Hoopspro

[__________Lucid Flow]

Originally posted by Ragingsyph
"You seem to think you have some sort of special right compared to new players. You don't. The only right you have is to play a game that Funcom deemed FAIR for all players"

True, it should be fair. I'm not trying to be combative here, but i'm curious as to when you bought the game. having bought the game soon after release and paying $59.95 US for it, i'd like to think that i might be able to continue to use llts' that i bought or found before they stopped dropping, instead of losing it altogether because someone who paid $19.95 for the game doesn't think it's fair. I'd like to think the the extra $40 i spent would give me something different.

You could buy one on the open market just like anyone else could.

First of all, the above quote was from me, not from Hild.

Secondly, I bought the game shortly after release. 12.3 was the patch that I loaded the first time I turned on the game. I paid 59.99 for it as well.

Lastly, the amount of money you spent on the game is irrelevant. The price of games always goes down, ALWAYS. The fact that you bought it early does not give you the right to continue to own or use an item deemed unbalanced by the honchos themselves, Funcom.

It's not a difficult concept. LLTS = Unblanaced ESPECIALLY because they do not drop anymore. The time you played makes no difference. The price you paid is irrelevant. Unless from a shop, every item that is in the game now should be able to be found by everybody via a mission, boss reward or drop, or a quest. "Player owned" grandfathered items should never have been left in the game. I blame that on lazyness.

[_____Real Kinky Ityn]

One thing I hope Funcom is considering, the booster pack they want to sell us on is all about PVP, if they leave these kinds of common inballances in the game they will lose sales to people who would PVP but won't because of real or imagined unfairness.

If the scope isn't nurfed it needs to be obtainable from sources other than players (mission loot, store item, mission reward, boss loot).

[gwend]

what about us shotty mas there would be no point to it i chose ma + shotty for uber crits which atm i am getting plenty of without my buff im just a gimp ass doc with bad shotgun skill

[_______________lear1]

I say FC starts a poll on wether you want the scope nerf or you dont want it.That should be used to see if they should nerf them.

[___________Firedrake]

Originally posted by Lucid Flow
The fact that you bought it early does not give you the right to continue to own or use an item deemed unbalanced by the honchos themselves, Funcom.

ummm...read CZ's post that starts this thread again. They say that the problem ISN'T specifically the LLTS, but the total crits chances that folks can obtain. Now, unless you are advocating nerfing MA crit buffs (which I wouldn't put past you, but am hoping you aren't) how can you say that a LLTS by itself is unbalanced?

As far as it not dropping anymore, that is easily fixed. FC can certainly make them drop once again.

I also disagree with you on the point that every item that is in the game should have to drop. For one thing, if they aren't nodrop you can trade for or buy them.

From what I can tell so far, it seems that most of the folks wanting the LLTS nerfed those arguing the PvP angle. Big surprise, that I just hope that this one time FC realizes that reletively few players give a rabid rollerrat's rump about PvP. The nerfs cause by a handful of crybaby Pvp'ers have caused a LOT of players to quit in disgust. It's time for FC to stop catering to these whiners and listen to the wishes of the majority of players.

[gwend]

why dont we just put a profession req on each weapon that would make it alot easier wouldnt it

so enfs cant use stieners/flash points or nts can only use pistols because after all they were ment to nuke not shoot lets also nerf docs because they were ment to heal not fight cant forget crats they shouldnt be allowed to use any weapon after all they can charm mobs nuke and have a pet while were at it lets say no pet class can have weapons because after all the pet is that professions weapon and we can only use what was ment for us while were being stupid lets also make profs require a certain breed ie mps docs nts crats eng all nanomage so they can cast all their buffs and pets early because thats what they depend on enf would be atrox soldier ma trader solitus

im tired of everyone using the exact same weapons armor and layout for characters i went shotty nanomage for my ma to be different i went nanomage enf to be different you guys saying nerf the scopes and complaining about mas using crit weapons are just trying to force everyone into being the same type characters totally shutting out devisity in this game which it already lacks everyone uses the same armors the same weapons

if you watch pvp and mas using river6 see how many times they win even with 30%+ crit which you can only get at high lvls serious pvpers have high enough evades that crits dont happen all the often with mas attack rating using a gun where as an ma using fists has over 1000 ar which means more crits

so without a scope taking -800 to init youll now have an ma with 24% crit minimum on half aggro bar (so here come uber evades and nano resist) with lets just say 900 phy init gl critting that ma and have fun missing alot the only prof thats going to have an easier time are the rooting classes (maybe) as it is now there are tons of fist/claw only mas that own everyone with this crit nerf the few that decided to go a different route will be thrown to the side while making the already uber ma harder to hit/root and alot faster

/me trys to make an attempt to save his nanomage shotty ma

[Elixoria]

Talk of balancing this or that does not matter.

The scopes were produced with a set of req's and mods both good and bad.

Everyone knows the scopes are good for MA's and others.

If the game is to stay fair then the items must not be subject to change on the whim of a lot of discussion.

If this discussion were to continue for a million more post of about balancing this or that... the scopes should still stay the same.

If you don't like an Item:

1) Don't have it drop anymore

2) also, you can have a different item drop in its place (yes even one that sucks more ... thanks very much)

Just don't change what has to be concrete in the game.

"Once items are dropped and gathered into inventory, the reprogramming of the game should not change the items." That would be the epitomy of unfairness to the players.

Items aquired must remain unchanged.