Late-week update on LLTS

[Vdpmeat]

Very unfair to melee users.

Flurry is not over-equipable and requires a special attack skill requirement not needed for fists, and is only used on some melee weapons.

You can implant/buff your way into either the VE or LLTS and it's good forever.

Solution?

Do some more research and fix the problem, whatever the answer is there is going to be some upset.

Is it better to upset the entire population or just a percentage of one profession?

Leave LLTS and Flurry as they are, take the time to code in something that will target the problem instead of just trying to mask the symptoms.

Maybe then it wouldn't look like you're back-tracking and breaking promises.

[__________Lucid Flow]

Originally posted by Cheetra
how you figure ma's loosing but to +15% to crit from this and everyone else only losing +7% from this is ration is beyond me Aaronb.

Because I never said that. I said EVERY profession loses 7% crit from the scope alone, i.e. Removal of the LLTS and everybody gets to keep Mark of Peril.

That way everybody has the same chance of gaining more crit% thru a scope. If you want even more, play a Martial Artist or Agent. But it's unfair that a limited supply of better scopes are available to only a select few people without any chance of the items dropping again.

[_____Real Kinky Ityn]

Great idea, I'm sure this means you intend to put the old scopes back in the game as well.

[DaveDread]

Let's take it from the start.

Melee users can stack Critbuff, LLTS and Flurry. MA's have 15% higher critbuff then other melee users. That is the core concept for the MA.

If the LLTS option is removed from melee users, then flurry needs to be fixed up to the same efficiency as a LLTS, and the availability of LLTS's and flurrys should be the same (and I dont mean stop the drop of flurrys). MA's, being melee, should benefit from the flurry, just as the other melee professions do, so a phys init should be added.

If Flurrys are going to have a massive ranged init penalty, then bows need to be looked upon quite a bit. There simply isn't a viable bow that is on phys init. (All crossbows for example is on ranged init.)

The reverse of the situation, ranged professions using flurry, is not common, since ranged users dont get much benefits.

Please also keep in mind that melee users should dish out more damage then ranged.

[assassimon]

This is only affecting LLTS, not VE right?

So melee users can still use VE and get 8% crit...



All melee profs should get atleast 2 IPR points (to reset scope skills) and MAs should get 5 (cuz many use river)

Shouldn't be able to get higher IPR points than max for title tho ofcourse.

[Cerber]

Well I am very confused now.

Does this nerf works for both LLTs and VEs?

If my little (3%) toy will stop work with my fists, then i will simply throw it away. Therefore I want some other device which will replace it in my HUD3 space.

What about a damn x-bows? I use it only 2-3 times a week in PvP, if my crit buff will not work for x-bows (ranged init) I will IPR that skill.

At this moment there are NO decent bows, so MA players have to use x-bows.
I guess FC has to either move all x-bows to physicall init or make a separate line of x-bows.




Summary: make an alternative item for HUD3 as some MAs will stop using scopes at all.

Utilize those not very helpfull Deflection Shield Generators, make them go to a HUD3, do something to make them helpfull.

[assassimon]

Most MAs only use Xbows for specials, and doesn't matter what init you have then, so those would still work for specials.

[Budicea]

Originally posted by aaronb


In QL190 mission after QL190 mission, I see MA's around my level take off 40-50% of a mob's health instantly on almost every mob. Same with enforcers. With a 13% ELLTS, MoP, TTS, and a GoC, this sort of happens for me too on a rare occasion (if I get a healthy AS off and get lucky on my first couple of shots).

Could I get the names of these 'forcers. I never ever ever ever am able to take 50% off a mob's health with one blow in even con missions, I am obviously doing something wrong. I have seen MA's do this only when they are running missions 5 or more levels below their own level.

[Cheetra]

Originally posted by Lucid Flow


Because I never said that. I said EVERY profession loses 7% crit from the scope alone, i.e. Removal of the LLTS and everybody gets to keep Mark of Peril.

That way everybody has the same chance of gaining more crit% thru a scope. If you want even more, play a Martial Artist or Agent. But it's unfair that a limited supply of better scopes are available to only a select few people without any chance of the items dropping again.

My specific response to the post you started quoted on was directed at the ranged users that feel MELEE's should not have use of the LLTS ( VE ) at all, some felt only MA's should get this nerf.

I don't agree with the nerf period, i do agree with drop avaiablity issue as you have already pointed out. BUT i'd recommend dropping the VE ( ql 400 ) not the LLTS again, this keeps the influx into game slow for the highest +% crit VE's and allows current LLTS holders to have the edge they already have,

BUT note that the +15% crit VE are in fact a better device, they suck less init then LLTS, so eventually the value of the LLTS would erode.

Do I think MA's should have their % to crit messed with at all? GOD NO. Should it restricted to MA weapons, fists and bows? Now that would be a valid thought.

If they think that the total popluace of rudi-ka needs to have crit hit number reduced i would much rather see the entired Mark of series leave game ( or MAYBE become usable on other peoples pets ) then see a change to the LLTS (I would include making the higher ql VE's available as that fix ). And I would gladly accept the limitation of having UVC, LMA and SG apply to ONLY ma fists, weapons and bow.

personally i don't think MA's should be running around with beams, or River6's, because yes, i will agree that is unbalancing, does that mean though that applies to an MA using fists only? No, it most certainly doesn't. Nor bows nor ma weapons.

[Cerber]

Incase FC absolutely have to nerf Melee users, at least help Engineers.

[Cerber]

Originally posted by Azzazzimon
Most MAs only use Xbows for specials, and doesn't matter what init you have then, so those would still work for specials.

I am concerned about Crit buff not working with them, not how fast they shoot.

[aaronb]

Originally posted by Budicea


Could I get the names of these 'forcers. I never ever ever ever am able to take 50% off a mob's health with one blow in even con missions, I am obviously doing something wrong. I have seen MA's do this only when they are running missions 5 or more levels below their own level.

It's not one blow. It's whatever their alpha strike is. Talk to Trus or Cheeze if you want some tips. These guys are animals.

[aaronb]

Originally posted by Cheetra

If they think that the total popluace of rudi-ka needs to have crit hit number reduced i would much rather see the entired Mark of series leave game ( or MAYBE become usable on other peoples pets ) then see a change to the LLTS (I would include making the higher ql VE's available as that fix ). And I would gladly accept the limitation of having UVC, LMA and SG apply to ONLY ma fists, weapons and bow.

So wipe out MoP across the board, and reduce UVC by 7%, LMA by 4%, and VS by 2% in order to make it an even reduction? Is this what you mean here?

[___________Firedrake]

Originally posted by Lucid Flow
But the fact remains that it's still attainable from a monster and thru normal means. The fact remains more are generated every day. There is no such balancing point for an ELLTS. No matter who you get on your team, how many times you try or who you outdamage, a LLTS will never drop again.

Buying an item isn't normal means? And actually not every day, it drops pretty rarely from T from what I've heard. And just because something is theoretically possible doesn't mean it's even close to likely. Frankly, the chance is much better for me (or anyone) to get a LLTS by buying one than to get a EoT from it dropping.

But then, then issue about them not dropping is one of the easiest for FC to fix, they just have to let them drop again. Problem solved.

From what I understand the REAL problem that FC is worried about is players critting too much. Obviously if the 26% crit chance of a MA isn't too much, then the 15% from the highest LLTS isn't too much. What they need is simply a cap to how much anyone can crit. To keep MA's the "masters of critting" just have that cap higher.

It's a much fairer solution than a nerf. They don't tick off those who have stuck with them, they don't lose players disgusted with nerf after nerf, and they lower max crits.

[Cheetra]

Originally posted by aaronb


In QL190 mission after QL190 mission, I see MA's around my level take off 40-50% of a mob's health instantly on almost every mob. Same with enforcers. With a 13% ELLTS, MoP, TTS, and a GoC, this sort of happens for me too on a rare occasion (if I get a healthy AS off and get lucky on my first couple of shots).

So I'm a bit skeptical when you say you have trouble with even con missions unless you are getting a lot of adds (maybe try pulling?). I don't see how you think you're going to HAVE to use a weapon, even if they were to not make the self-only crit buffs into MA/bow-only.

And in PvP, at full defensive with evades max and implanted and 6k of health, I get nearly instakilled by self-buffed MAs and Enforcers, even if I manage to get my highest level divest running on them.

Sorry, I simply can't agree with your point of view on this. From Cz's post, it's clear the problem here is the high crit rate obtained by melee users (most likely MAs specifically). And they've gone from focusing on crits across the board to focusing on where their real issue is.

You're a trader, damage is not supposed to be your strong suit.

Never the less, traders do indeed rock as damage dealers, I'd recommend talking to some other higher level traders. In my experience the damage a good trader my own level does is very near even with my own, and they have a much higher attack rating.

[Julka_Pomy]

Well for once i like the change.

Should been done long time ago... now all i want to see is LLTS back in stock.

[Cheetra]

Originally posted by aaronb


So wipe out MoP across the board, and reduce UVC by 7%, LMA by 4%, and VS by 2% in order to make it an even reduction? Is this what you mean here?

i didnt' say anything about reducing MA self crit buffs. I didn't say it for a reason. I did mention limiting to MA fists, ma weapons, and bows.

That solves the issue of weapons that where never intended to be in MA hands critting like mad.

[______________Othgar]

IMHO.. all that needs to be done is make the MA buffs NOT stack with the old style scopes.

Of course you would need to provide several IP reset points to players to repair this but that should be easy for you...

After these changes are made you can then make the old style scopes drop in game without fear of any class being overpowered with them.

Just my two credits...

[assassimon]

Originally posted by postbee



I am concerned about Crit buff not working with them, not how fast they shoot.

How about saying that Flurry of Blows and the MA self crit buffs won't be usable with ranged weapons (except bows) due to a big Ranged Init penalty, and the LLTS won't be usable with close combat weapons, bare handed attacks and bows due to a big penalty on Melee and Physical Init?

They would add a biiiiiig ranged init penalty on crit buffs, so say you have -10k in range init, the specials would still work and be as fast.

[aaronb]

Originally posted by Cheetra


You're a trader, damage is not supposed to be your strong suit.

Never the less, traders do indeed rock as damage dealers, I'd recommend talking to some other higher level traders. In my experience the damage a good trader my own level does is very near even with my own, and they have a much higher attack rating.

And nowhere have I said that I expect to outdamage an MA or enforcer. And we don't. The only reason we are even comparable is when we are fully drained, and the time I'm spending draining is time I'm not doing damage.

But you completely evaded my point by focusing on what I am. What makes you think your fists are no longer viable without an LLTS?