Late-week update on LLTS

[Cheetra]

Originally posted by Bigtoof
Imo, this change makes the most sense so far. Obviously the river series MAs with their crazy 40% crit will cry over this change, but overall I think the vast majority would be happier if the crit nerf didnt happen to the scopes, and the inits were adjusted in this manner.

As for the non-MAs using MA as their means of attack...time to find a weapon to use. If extra ipr points are given at the time of this change, it isn't very difficult to reset ma and phys init and pick a gun to use.

Of course, no matter what changes are made, there is gonna be a group of people that are unhappy, but this one seems the most fair so far to me.

This will just force MAs to use *gasp* martial arts. If you wanna use guns, shouldn't have chosen to be an MA.

Here's irony... i DO use my fists, i have never seriously used anything else, I have also used LLTS since i was 92 and ma's where the masters of min damage. I've tried fighting without llts since then only to have my butt kicked up between my ears repeatedly in even con missions ( i'm 170+ btw ).

My MA skills are MAX'ed for title, I can self cast UVC, FFoK AND the last of the fist buffs, Stellar Harmony. Without scope bonuses I won't be using fist only, I'll be forced to use weapons, MA weapons or ranged really doesn't matter just to try and compenstate for the lost damage, I'll have to go to using weapons, something i personally didn't want to do till i hit 200 and needed a bow to deal with root and shot pvp'ers.


So i find the comments about MA's using weapons amusing at the least... and ill informed at the most, this garuntee's I for one will HAVE to use a weapon should this go through.

BTW... saying just reset is one thing, but did you know you lose ip every time you reset a skill? Did you know that engie's BEST offensive skill buff is a MA skill buff? Sure tell them to just pick up a gun.. that makes no sense.

[____________Intrepid]

I have a question. If martial artists are critting too much then why are you nerfing all melee/ma classes? Wouldn't taking 7% off their crit buffs do the same thing and not affeect other classes?

[aaronb]

Comments included below:

Originally posted by Cz

We had a meeting today involving several people from different departments, and basically we agreed that LLTS itself is not the main issue, but the critical chances that people are able to attain. Due to this I would like to ask a bit more about some of the suggestions players have brought up; making so that you can't efficiently stack all crit increasing stuff in the game.


Could you ask them for the approximate crit percentage limit that they are looking for? This would help in providing better feedback.


How about saying that Flurry of Blows and the MA self crit buffs won't be usable with ranged weapons (except bows) due to a big Ranged Init penalty, and the LLTS won't be usable with close combat weapons, bare handed attacks and bows due to a big penalty on Melee and Physical Init?

Who will be the losers in such a deal? How much will they lose? What would be a reasonable compensation (in e.g. IPR points)?Will balance be better or worse?


MA - I've said before that I think SG/VS/LMA/UVC should be MA/bow-only. These buffs are unreasonable for ranged weapons that you are attempting to balance outside of these buffs. MA damage output right now is incredibly high with just bow/MA.

Enforcer - Again, their damage output is pretty high right now. Where I see this hurting them the most is in aggro management, but this is something that should be fixed with their taunts. I saw a thread a couple days ago regarding this, and I think it's something that needs to be fixed alongside any reduction in their damage output.

Adventurer - This would hurt... and I really don't think adventurers need any setbacks. Perhaps some damage adjustments on their melee weapons to compensate? I'm not sure here, as I don't know a lot of adventurers.

Engineers - just plain need some attention, with or without the LLTS adjustment. I think most engineers would be happy to sacrifice this battle for a few fixes from their forum.

Aside from those points, this is exactly the kind of change I'd like to see.

I wouldn't call it "compensation" so much as a "correction opportunity" -- another 1-patch full IPR opportunity would be the safest and most fair option in my opinion.


Let me have your feedback, and I'll compile it and add it to the feedback on other suggestions and ideas, and we'll see where we end up.

It's clear that you are listening and even paying attention to what we're saying. This has done a lot to restore my faith in funcom, even if you do neglect us in the Trader forum

[_______________Verro]

Not much more to say then its a good solution.

[Arinia]

Please carefully consider damage output on "other" melee weapons before you do this.

MAs are still going to have really decent damage output. I don't want to fall off any further from them.

Nerfing all the melee profs from a crit device that works all the time seems like throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Problem is MAs fighting at 20% aggro with 900+ evades and hitting 1/1 while using a huge scope and flurry (with river 6 or not ). Please keep your eye on the ball.

[Budicea]

Originally posted by Lucid Flow


No, the only crime here is Funcoms inability to put their foot down and make a decision for the good of the ENTIRE community of players. Just because you played early in a game does NOT give you the right to continue to use an item that was deemed overpowered. Just because you are a playing customer does NOT give you the right to have an unfair advantage then everybody else.

I am one of those people who has been playing a looooong time, in fact I pre-ordered the game and had it loaded on my system before the servers were up and runnin (ok, you can call me a geek I can take it) and personally do think we deserve some special consideration. I stuck by this game when you had to save out your IP points and spend a few every time lag got bad, otherwise you would loose any exp you had made prior to the zone crashing. I stuck by the game when I crashed every time I zoned, I stuck by the game when the zone would crash and it would be half an hour before you could get your char back. I have stuck by this game and don't think it is to much to ask the game to stick by me. AND I DON'T HAVE A LLTS!

When they took the LLTS out of the drop tables and stores we were told, that was all there is there would not be anymore, but people got to keep the ones they had. People grumbled and were upset and the price on the things went thru the roof (they have actually come down a bit from what they were just after that patch) and people moved on with life. We were told that the ones in game would be left alone. I expect my 8 y.o. daughter to stick by her word, I assume this game is run by adults who are also capable of sticking by their word.

Many things do not yet work as promised, apartments can not be upgraded and can only hold 10 items, and some major furniture items (such as chairs) can not be purchased. Guild halls never materialized. The game is not yet as promised waaaaaay back when I pre-ordered it, would be nice if it had all the content promised before they started the nerf-o-rama.

[______________Yazule]

Originally posted by Arinia
Please carefully consider damage output on "other" melee weapons before you do this.

MAs are still going to have really decent damage output. I don't want to fall off any further from them.

Nerfing all the melee profs from a crit device that works all the time seems like throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Problem is MAs fighting at 20% aggro with 900+ evades and hitting 1/1 while using a huge scope and flurry (with river 6 or not ). Please keep your eye on the ball.

what she said (good job professional!)

this would be a blow to enforcers for sure.

our damage output is already marginal at high levels compaired to solja, MA, traders, NT's and anyone that takes the time to arm a super duper gun with crits.

maybe an enforcer only Item (and one for advents) that raises crit chances on melee like the llts does? FOB is NOT equivilant as it is only active about 10% of the time if you use it every time you have the chance.

be wary, you dont want to make the enforcers mad

[Cheetra]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Othgar


I would rather see UVC not stack with the old style scope than to see UVC made Melee only...

Just my two credits..
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I'd rather see all crit buffs that aren't self only removed from game then either. MA's defining ability is to crit, so i see no reason why they should have that ability handed out to ever other professoin BUT themselves. Let's really even the playing field if it comes to that, NO +crit items for any one, NO +crit buffs that aren't self only.

That should be fair in the estimation of those that want -level- the playing field between range and melee users.

One ranged class that can crit better: Agents

One melee class that can crit better: MA's

There... level playing field... that make every one happy?

No? wonder why not....

you can't have something for nothing... and you can't have the MA crit advantage if they can't, not at all fair.

end repost... new stuff!

If players are criting to much this FAIRLY solves the problem. MA's are supposed to crit better, they made that clear when the stopped letting MA's use UVC on others ( which happened because of n00bs complaining the effect on pvp as near as i can figure ).

MA's cirt, agent's crit, adv get a tiny increase in crit, crats should get a tiny self crit and the rest of you can about your business without higher crit number ever... that is what this will devolve to eventually unless this stops now, prior to this patch.

Let's just take the VE and LLTS out of game all togather and replace them with some sort of HUD customizable skill augmenting device ( like an implant ).

Because if I hear nerf MA's as a result of this... *rolls up her sleeves* after spending nearly a year in this game sucking wind... sticking by my profession... I'm gonna be more then a wee bit po'ed.


Argulace has one point: The River6 is broken. solution: remove it - not llts.


LLTS =The one freaking item that let's me do what I mosted wanted out of the MA profession, to fight with my BARE hands. My ip didn't got to weapons, it went to being even better at what my profession does best ( which i assure is NOT act as a secondary healer ).

[__________Lucid Flow]

Originally posted by Budicea
When they took the LLTS out of the drop tables and stores we were told, that was there is there would not be anymore, but people got to keep the ones they had. People grumbled and were upset and the price on the things went thru the roof (they have actually come down a bit from what they were just after that patch) and people moved on with life. We were told that the ones in game would be left alone. I expect my 8 y.o. daughter to stick by her word, I assume this game is run by adults who are also capable of sticking by their word.

Well, you are being told now that the ones left in the game will NOT be left alone, so that throws that out of the window. Using your daughter as an example is irrelevant.

A better example would be the use of:

http://auno.org/ao/db.php?cmd=view&id=142638&t=ag
or
http://auno.org/ao/db.php?cmd=view&id=142639&t=ag

They were in the game, deemed overpowered, and therefor removed by Funcom. People worked hard to get them, they werent a common item. Yet Funcom still put their foot down.

I don't get why Funcom doesn't learn from prior games. Grandfathering items is a bad idea. It always has been and always will be.

There is no good reason for it.

[Arane]

mas, adv and enf can still use the New vision enhancers i believe :P

[Cheetra]

Actually removing items has been the main issue for most MMRPGS Lucid, especially as all game companies have Monte Hall syndrome.


Mark my words, in the histroy of AO there will be an item that blows away that the current LLTS, it will come out in an expansion, and then your notion of fair and over powered will be blown out of that water.


Oh.. and yeah.. i have to say it really is pretty said when someone says interity really isn't important Lucid. Really sad.

[Cheetra]

1) remove all crit buffs that effect others. IE: agent, ma, adv forms that have +crit and crat speaks.

2) allow the drop of higher ql VE's ( up to 15% ) as without out side buffs these will not be over powered.

3) leave the LLTS alone as they will eventually replace by the highest level VE's which reduce less init so in the long run are a better choice.

4) remove the River6, it's broken - it can be fired while running.

5) leave all self only crit buffs alone as the classes that have them are balanced to have them.


That should solve the problem.

[Budicea]

Originally posted by Lucid Flow


I don't get why Funcom doesn't learn from prior games. Grandfathering items is a bad idea. It always has been and always will be.

There is no good reason for it.

So is changing the rules, EQ did it and lost MAJOR ammounts of customers. The game companies make the rules, and need to stand by what they say, it is good customer service and will get them a good customer base.

I personaly will not be playing Star Wars when it comes out because it will be run by VI the same company that ran EQ and had no problems changing rules on me, and treating consumers as if they were not important or valued. FC is doing it too, this game was advertised with a limited time line (don't know if I believe that anymore either) but if they stick by their guns and run the story line out to the end the only chance of getting more money from me is if they have enough of my interest to go to the new game. Lying does not encourage me to try their new game. Not appreciating older customers loyalty, e****ally when the game was full of problems for those of us that were here and stuck it out in the begining does not encourage me to try any new game FC might have coming out.

Personaly, I don't think they should have pulled the other items from those who had already gotten them either.

Loyalty should have it's rewards, that you don't think so speaks volumes about you.

That FC does not think so gives me some food for thought.

[______________Lilbob]

lets see llts? fix? llts? fix?
erm i gotta go with fix here

hows about some viable alternative to transference for us engies so we can still make use of the llts?

and of course if you ever get lost in the engie forums Cz could you please pick up the large pile of "TO DO's" before you leave again?

arinia couldnt agree more with yah, if not the llts for enfs/advs how about giving them a viable alternative to it?

lucid flow:
in answer to your whine, yes we do deserve to keep the scope as we have proven to be loyal customers through the good and the bad (mostly bad like but what the hey )
and good customers deserve to be respected and rewarded, for the llts not to get nerfed is a good a reward as any.

[assassimon]

Hurts enforcers and adventurers bad, and also hurt MAs ofcourse.

I think it's totally wrong the problem is not that MA are overpowered with fists, we are overpowered when we use River series 6, and that is mostly because we can run and shoot and we crit too much with it, so nerf what make MAs overpowered instead, River Series 6.

So let the scopes be like they are now, nerf River and give those that used afew IPR points if needed.

But, I rather see them nerf us MAs than nerfing everyone, cuz that is even more stupid.


Make MoP melee only!

[__________Lucid Flow]

Originally posted by Cheetra
Actually removing items has been the main issue for most MMRPGS Lucid, especially as all game companies have Monte Hall syndrome.

Mark my words, in the histroy of AO there will be an item that blows away that the current LLTS, it will come out in an expansion, and then your notion of fair and over powered will be blown out of that water.

Oh.. and yeah.. i have to say it really is pretty said when someone says interity really isn't important Lucid. Really sad.

1) New items that will blow away old items are irrelevant. They don't exist in the game right now nobody can worry about that this far. Nothing has been blown out of the water. The reason LLTS are such an issue and Freedom Arms or Sunburst MKIIIs were was because LLTS enhances ANY current weapon you are using. The old weapons are limited by the quality level.

2) I never said integrity isn't important. Please find and post a queote where I ever said that. What I said was the example he used regarding his daughter is irrelevant to the situation. A promise is one thing, but when it jeopardizes the balance of the game for the ENTIRE community, then it poses a problem.

That's like saying "It's ok son, you can keep that .45 since you already had it, but I don't want you to get any more ok?"

If the first one was bad enough to be inherently nerfed for all players by not allowing it to be dropped, then it should have been completely removed from the game.

Removal of items for the sake of balance may make people upset, but at least they will understand that it is FOR BALANCE and they will eventually get over it because they will enjoy the balanced play field.

Grandfathering items makes even MORE people upset because it makes no logical sense what so ever.

[aaronb]

Originally posted by Cheetra


Here's irony... i DO use my fists, i have never seriously used anything else, I have also used LLTS since i was 92 and ma's where the masters of min damage. I've tried fighting without llts since then only to have my butt kicked up between my ears repeatedly in even con missions ( i'm 170+ btw ).

My MA skills are MAX'ed for title, I can self cast UVC, FFoK AND the last of the fist buffs, Stellar Harmony. Without scope bonuses I won't be using fist only, I'll be forced to use weapons, MA weapons or ranged really doesn't matter just to try and compenstate for the lost damage, I'll have to go to using weapons, something i personally didn't want to do till i hit 200 and needed a bow to deal with root and shot pvp'ers.


So i find the comments about MA's using weapons amusing at the least... and ill informed at the most, this garuntee's I for one will HAVE to use a weapon should this go through.

In QL190 mission after QL190 mission, I see MA's around my level take off 40-50% of a mob's health instantly on almost every mob. Same with enforcers. With a 13% ELLTS, MoP, TTS, and a GoC, this sort of happens for me too on a rare occasion (if I get a healthy AS off and get lucky on my first couple of shots).

So I'm a bit skeptical when you say you have trouble with even con missions unless you are getting a lot of adds (maybe try pulling?). I don't see how you think you're going to HAVE to use a weapon, even if they were to not make the self-only crit buffs into MA/bow-only.

And in PvP, at full defensive with evades max and implanted and 6k of health, I get nearly instakilled by self-buffed MAs and Enforcers, even if I manage to get my highest level divest running on them.

Sorry, I simply can't agree with your point of view on this. From Cz's post, it's clear the problem here is the high crit rate obtained by melee users (most likely MAs specifically). And they've gone from focusing on crits across the board to focusing on where their real issue is.

[__________Lucid Flow]

Originally posted by Budicea
So is changing the rules, EQ did it and lost MAJOR ammounts of customers. The game companies make the rules, and need to stand by what they say, it is good customer service and will get them a good customer base.

When things are overpwered and easily skew the balance of the game, then changing the rules is NOT bad, in fact it's necessary.

Case and Point: Soldiers Mirror Shield nerf. Back when it reflected 75% damager back on the attacker, it was VERY overpowered. Therefor, the mechanics of the item changed to something that is more reasonable yet still left it extremely useful.

The same concept can be done with a LLTS.

[__________Lucid Flow]

Originally posted by bored@home
lucid flow:
in answer to your whine, yes we do deserve to keep the scope as we have proven to be loyal customers through the good and the bad (mostly bad like but what the hey )
and good customers deserve to be respected and rewarded, for the llts not to get nerfed is a good a reward as any.

Because you chose to continue to play a game that may have not been your cup of tea does not give you or anybody else the right to have an unfair advantage pver everybody else.

[Cheetra]

after living as a master of min damage for a year i'm more willing to see everyone else have to deal with being a master o' min damage to get the idiots that can't see what they are asking for to open their eyes, though in truth i doubt even that would help.


In all honesty what I would REALLY like the Dev team to do is to consider why it's needed at all.




Here's an idea...

Make the same OE rules to scopes as weapons, ONLY turn them off altogather if you don't meet the req's. A ton of people have them gimped on, this solves some of the issue up front, it give engi's access to good scopes ( better trade skill values ) and makes the rest of us pony up the ip for the chance to crit ( ie it ties up a lot more ip then most have involved in the use of these scopes currently ), and as much as I personally would dislike it, it would eliminate most the "combat" aka damage dealer professions for being able to use the top end LLTS at all unless your running trade skill implants. BUT it would not preclude them from using lower end ones.