Late-week update on LLTS

[______________Hayake]

Originally posted by schma

The point is to remove the possibilty of stacking up very high crit chances, especially when using weapons that may not be designed for use with a very high chance of critical hits, much like the original change when the UVC line was restricted to self only. Makes sense to me.

That can easily be solved by making uvc aso ma weapons only, no need to add scopes to that.

Originally posted by schma

I think MA's will find they still do the most damage in PvM, even after moving down from a 15% scope to an 8% scope.

Oh yes I can name you one class immeadiately that will outdamage ma's the second this happens. *coughs traders*

Furthermore uvc can't be selfcasted before lvl 192 for most ma's while a llts and mop can easily be done at tl5, maybe even sooner in case of the llts.

Current difference in crits between a lvl 200 ma and another class:

MA: 24% uvc + max 15% scope = 39%
Non MA: 15% scope + 7% Mop = 22%

difference : 17%

for the average tl5 ma + anotherclass
MA: lma 19% + 15% scope : 34%
Non Ma: 15%scope + Mop : 22%

difference: 12%

These differences should not be changed in any way. The implementation as suggested by fc upto now means a TL5 ma:
lma 19% + VE 8% = 27%
non ma: 15% + Mop 7% = 22%

difference: 5% or 9%for a tl6 ma.

that is like chopping crit advantage an ma has in half. Still think it has very little effect?

[Thehacksaw]

so basically MA engys and MA docs can start ipr now

i maxed parry brawl dimach Ma skill and 70% on phys init
i have a old scope 13% i had all time so now i need to ipr and do shotty


great for screwing MA engys even more

oooooh i know take away AC and reflect buff too

and

[____________Fenestra]

Originally posted by Cz
Flurry of Blows and the MA self crit buffs won't be usable with ranged weapons (except bows) due to a big Ranged Init penalty, and the LLTS won't be usable with close combat weapons, bare handed attacks and bows due to a big penalty on Melee and Physical Init?

YES! This is a great and obvious fix, not a nerf!
Horray! Horray! Horray!

Make it happen!

@->->--- to Cz and the Dev Team.

[Thehacksaw]

lol i played for 1 year and 2 months and had no idea but why they holl didnt they say so its a fix

now i have to ipr MA, Brawl, Dimach, Parry and phys init

wasting 5 ipr SUCKS

i say pls nerf damn scope to 8 for all insted or else its useless for MA engineeer

[DaveDread]

Personally, I think Engineers should be able to modify the scopes to reverse the init penalties. MA engies are cool, I don't want to see them removed from the game.

[______________Hayake]

btw as to your original question:

pvm: losers: everyone except when you have an entire team made out of ranged weapon usres.

pvp: losers : all melee classes, everyone that uses ma weapons.
winners: ranged weapon classes that use a llts

1. keep advantage vs players that don't have one
2. advantage gets even bigger as now aout half of the
pple that used one can't useone anymore

jackpot winners: traders: can you say invincible once again?

[Cemetarygate]

Originally posted by Kenlon


Not valid. They are saying that you will eat an extra penalty to init with the Crit buff on, but there's nothing to prevent you from launching an alpha strike, then switching the weapon out, or even keeping it on (eating the lower shot speed for range).

"MA self crit buffs won't be usable with ranged weapons (except bows) due to a big Ranged Init penalty"

Perhaps we need some clarification on "won't be usable" then. I take that to mean I won't be able to use ranged weapons.

[_______________RyanT]

So Basically, now MA's don't have the rights to use guns... In a hight tech Scie fie world it's so incredible to imagine a MA using something else than his fists. So if i understand right you want everybody to have the same look, the same power and do the same things... all that in the name of your holy "classes balance". For more than 16 month now i've been playing AO, waiting for guild housing, new players houses, territory control and other things that could increase the interest of this game, and instead, during all this time, FC continued balancing the game; in another words loosing their time (and our time too) and our money, giving and then removing stuffs to professions, in order to satisfy the ego of a few pre-puber teen whinning and crying because they're not the best when it comes to virtually slaughter everybody. in a pvp figth there will always be a winner and a looser, and loosers will keep on crying for nerf because the one that kill him was "uber"; and because FC will keep on listening for their cry instead of focusing on things that could add interest to the game, this situation will keep on until all mature players has leave this game and that the few teens left all look and behave the same.... well anyway for me this will be the last nerf; Waiting for it, i stay ready to cancel and move on the new MMORPGs, the ones that will probably kill AO.

PS: My idea, in order to stay "Constructive" : remove all professions but one, all guns and armor but one, make everybody the same lvl, and you'll have solved your "balance" problems

[Bionitrous]

This whole init change thing is obviously stupider than just reducing the crit percentage on the rare 9% scopes and providing some bonuses as compensation. Look at all the hatred and argument from all professions and all flavors of all professions who can't stand it.

It's a nice opportunity for FunCom to Nerf half the playerbase instead of the few people with 15% scopes that they were originally looking to go after.

Be careful what you ask for or you end up with another NerfCom half-baked idea that just pushes the game further down the toilet.

At least previously, the nerf only affected those with the supposedly 'unbalancing' items.

Let's say this slowly ... 'if an item is unbalancing, remove it from the game'.

How many times has that had to have been said? I don't think the things were unbalancing. But, if FunCom thinks so (as they did with the bracer nerf which solved absolutely nothing) then the things should likewise disappear or be scaled down like the Bracers were.

This init discussion can lead to NOTHING good. Unless you like a game full of cookie cutter characters and screwed over professions.

Mess with the inits and you screw over entire PROFESSIONS. Reduce the Crit percentage and you piss off particular individuals who happen to have a 'thing' in their inventory.

[__________Lucid Flow]

Originally posted by Bionitrous
This whole init change thing is obviously stupider than just reducing the crit percentage on the rare 9% scopes and providing some bonuses as compensation. Look at all the hatred and argument from all professions and all flavors of all professions who can't stand it.

It's a nice opportunity for FunCom to Nerf half the playerbase instead of the few people with 15% scopes that they were originally looking to go after.

Be careful what you ask for or you end up with another NerfCom half-baked idea that just pushes the game further down the toilet.

At least previously, the nerf only affected those with the supposedly 'unbalancing' items.

Let's say this slowly ... 'if an item is unbalancing, remove it from the game'.

How many times has that had to have been said? I don't think the things were unbalancing. But, if FunCom thinks so (as they did with the bracer nerf which solved absolutely nothing) then the things should likewise disappear or be scaled down like the Bracers were.

This init discussion can lead to NOTHING good. Unless you like a game full of cookie cutter characters and screwed over professions.

Mess with the inits and you screw over entire PROFESSIONS. Reduce the Crit percentage and you piss off particular individuals who happen to have a 'thing' in their inventory.

Well stated.

[shopmule]

So the issue is that people are taking down MOBs at a rate that is too fast. People are leveling faster and get to 200 too quickly. They can do two things.. leave the game or roll another character.

This is the non MA crit ability. Someone with a 15% scope is limited to 15 + 7 + 4 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 29% plus or minus 1 or 2 %

29% is not overpowering.
With the init penalty you shoot less... thus have less opportunity to crit anyway.

If you want to RP this why couldn't a character have a 29% chance of scoring a critical hit if he has invested in a piece of hardware and the skills necessary to equip it?

Again from a RP perspective what use would a scope have for someone using their hands? Or a beam.. or a parry stick.. or a sword? It should only be used on ranged weapons.

The scopes should change to be used on ranged weps only and the MA self crit buffs should be changed to melee weps only.

Currently your message at the top of the thread Cz is the best solution I have heard.

With any big nerf like this one is becoming I would suggest giving some IPr points... maybe 3 to 5 but definitely not another full IPr.

Sounds like one of the devs stood up and a lightbulb turned on in his head.

However realize that this will merely be conceived as MA nerf.
So you should now change the title of the next thread from llts nerf to MA NERF PLANNED. And considering the largest percentage of your player base are MAs I cannot help but to LOL at the can of whoop ass you guys will have opened on you.

I think y'all should simply review the way people are choosing to level. The way the game is currently constructed players at higher levels choose easier missions for the sheer simplicity and speed of leveling. Rewards are never factored into selecting missions. Just who can roll 187-192 missions and "meet in BS for update".

There is rarely a need for docs at higher levels. And calmers while nice aren't a necessity because the MOBs can be solo'd by any of the players in the group as it is.

So there is your problem. If I ran 50-60% difficulty missions all day then I would crit like a madman without a scope. Now add a scope and I am definitely critting more.

Add some reasons for higher level players to run higher level missions. I am sure some Docs and NTs and Crats and Tankers out there will feel a lot more useful than currently. And the MOBs will not die as fast. However then you will get more XP... and get to 200 faster...Oh the never ending cycle.

FUNCOM stop trying to hold us back and let us leave the nest if we choose to.. Some people will re-roll some will leave. But don't try to hinder the ability to get to that point of decision.

If you love us let us go... or something
Don't NERF anything!

[_________Disciple092]

hmmmm lets see no more scope for ma all he has usually will be his 24% UVC but GUN USERS get scope best being 15% lv 200 LLTS .....so 15% + 7% MoP = 22%

LOL so basically MA's will have a 2% higher crit chance against a person with llts(ql 200) and ill bet more old school peeps use them than u think(i have a lv 200 guildee who owns 6 lv 200 scopes ATM)

Great job if this happens the masters of critting have a whopping 2% advantage over gun users.........LOVELY! ah well at least we are totally defenseless against peeps who like to root and shoot us.I never minded knowing that if i got in close to opponent i could do some serious damage but now hearing i may have nearly the same crit chance as someone with long range advantage i must seriously question any melee users desire to PvP after this

Actually MA engis have it far worse in fact only getting 7% crit(usually) against a long range opponent who has up to 22%
As for enforcers at least they will have rage to break roots altho i question how scary they will be with 7% crits

I truly feel sorry for the poor folks that spent hundreds of hours and rolled MA's in the hope of playing a class that can truely enjoy PvP

As for me im MA in RL.I started in AO a gimped MA class 14 months ago and was happy for fix many months later now that MA's are soon to take a slight step back to their former misery ill still be here....although i doubt the loyalties of the people that are very used to their current MA greatness

hey FC....ya may as well just delete all LLTS and make UVC castable on others now.....theres not gonna be much difference in the end

[_________Disciple092]

Gawd it just gets me so mad!!!We had awesome freedom and balance that all classes should deserve to be measured against, and have given to them eventually.......now....NERF!!!!!take away my crits take away my crossbow :\

at what xtreme lv of gayness will this end? huh? maybe FC will give us fireball nano's like friggin streetfighter

rackafrakkingrubbleflapin......UGH!

[Tiggy]

I think the LLTS need to keep their “bangs for the buck” so whatever multiplier they apply to the crit should also be applied to the penalties and reqs. At the very least the llts should have a better crit value than the new scopes at any given ql.

To make it more of a ranged weapon thing would be good too, ie range int and AS improvements. Though I cant see myself using my little ql103 scope after the nerfing. I am more likely to get one of the new ones as they have better AS and are much easier for me to equip. namely, I could fit a ql250 new scope right now, but I can only just get into a ql103 llts.

The whole reason for using it is to bump damage (ie crit). I certainly don’t think I crit a lot when using my ql103 (+8), even when I have ma and crat buffs too. The most I have managed is 3 crits back to back (enhanced sureshot) but that puts my crit value over 50% so 3 in a row is not out of order. Normal usage I will see one or two crits on a mob in a team (crit of 10-12). That seems perfectly alright to me IMHO as I am taking 10-15 shots at the mob.

I still get the feeling this is a “lets fix pvp” issue that is going to be carried over to PvM. Its not like I don’t get killed in missions and I certainly don’t think that im piling on the xp. Having a team doing less damage against mobs, taking longer to gain their xp and receiving more damage for their trouble isn’t what I would call “a more challenging gaming experience”. I hardly do any PvP at all, ever! I am certain I am not in the minority here. Standing toe to toe with someone in the arena is just sooooooooo dull and such a small aspect of the game. People PvP for what? 2-3 min a time? Certainly not for more than an hour.

Perhaps if FC compared the amount of PvP deaths with the number of MOB’s killed and distributed their fixes in proportion to that volume we would all be a lot happier.

[Thehacksaw]

i liked the old proposal CZ
drop llts to 8% and remove inits and add some dmg buff maybe
and let all use it

btw i am dusting off my trader they will get even better hehe

[Chewie]

Finally a good suggestion from funcom

[Canto]

Originally posted by Cz

How about saying that Flurry of Blows and the MA self crit buffs won't be usable with ranged weapons (except bows) due to a big Ranged Init penalty, and the LLTS won't be usable with close combat weapons, bare handed attacks and bows due to a big penalty on Melee and Physical Init?

The solution you have posted is better than a total scope nerf. However the best solution is still:

1) Cap crit % across the board for everyone at 15-20%. Allow MAs and Agents to have some SMALL bonus over this to account for their nano lines.

2) Add an AC crit modifier at least for Players, that takes AC into account in calculating crit chance AND crit damage.

3) Go back to 100% damage in PvP.

This solution kills MANY birds with one stone without unduly taxing or nerfing anyone.

Thanks.

[Portulis]

This whole scope thing has really stirred up a hornet's nest. As things stand, only a few in game have a 15% scope, others have 10-14% scopes, and then there are the bulk of us with 8% scopes or lower. Sure I'd love to have a 15% scope but to put one on, I'd have to spend IP...

Problems I see are:

1. Old scopes not obtainable by everyone.

2. River Series 6 having insane crits and special and usuable while on the run.

3. MA's with River Series running UVC and a LLTS doing well at PVP. Are they doing too well?

4. Flurry apparently stackable with crit chance for melee AND ranged users.


A couple of decisions to be made. Should MA crit buffs be useable with ranged weapons except bows? If scopes have the init debuffs altered, should phyisical init and melee init or both be changed?

What would happen to the game if self only MA crit buffs had a negative ranged init penalty?

We need to discuss this one a while longer...

Morelian

[toytd]

Good Idea !

But I have to add, why is everyone adding all the buffs you need for a player to get the max crit with this scope? There is no way I'm going to sit around for hours begging for buffs so I can do uber damage.

Is this a PvP thing? Why don't you just measure each class with its own buffs and see where they land? All this nerfing is really hurting the ppl that don't PvP. Why don't you make all Non-Native Buffs ineffective in PvP. That way, a prof. can be measured by it's own buffs??

I really feel sorry for the eng. that went MA but don't you have a bot?? Are you expecting to do same damage with your MA attack + whatever your bot deals? I wish Traders charm line works so that we can move and attack with our pet also. then I wouldn't mind the crit nerf. That way i can get a tank for the mob while I stand back and watch my pee shooter in action.

[Skulldawg]

i think this is a good idea.. i really don't see how enfs or advs lose much ..enfs can easily get a high attack rating with challenger and still crit quite abit with a ql 250 ve
but as for advs i can only suggest you add a bit more crit % say 2 % more is good on the sabertooth form but keeping the llts crit% is a good idea since its very hard to pvm without a few crits i can only advise mas to use pow bow when pvping its like their own ithaca for bow using mas i don't say nerf ma crit buffs a lot but just take some % off so critting % is not over powering and unbalancing the game either way i still think keeping crit % and adding more penalty on melee init and phsyical init is a good idea
not that its gonna be killing melee classes since the ql 400 ve will drop eventually

just my thoughts after reading this thread

lv 200 fixer