Lockout timer on Roots / Snares

[Ashes2Ashes]

Since nano's are going to be rebalanced for professions, and this is the balance discussion section. How about...

Similar to pvp fears, put lockout timers on roots and snares (1:00-1:30). Make them short duration (6-12s), and maybe even make some of them unremovable, with an even longer lockout timer. I currently play a MA, and I like my pvp fear with it's snare componant. It has 2:30 lockout. a bit longer than I would like, but it's sufficient, when coupled with root grafts for kiters.

One of my biggest gripes in pvp is the ability to lock a melee (even ranged, I know both professions suffer, but melee moreso to a greater extent since you can't attack back) profession down with generous applications of roots/snares. For a MA it's not too bad, you can train spacial displacement, have 1 ma attack to break free, free movement stims. But after a couple spammed roots/snares your bag of tricks is exhausted.

Thats the thing tho, if they don't want to let you go, there is nothing you can do about it. Just another recast of root/snare and your back to square 1. Even if you been working to get out of it, using free movement stims, another recast and your back to step 1.

So how do you fix this? Put a lockout timer on roots/snares, or add an immunity timer to roots/snares on free movement stims for a certain ammount of time? I don't know, what I do know is that it's frustrating being melee, rooted/snared in one spot and being used for target practice by any ranged people that happen to be around.

Feel free to discuss, and give your opinions.

[Grafter]

10000% Agreed on this.

to have a fixer or crat or NT or Trade just root you for 2-3 minutes (either chain or otherwise) is hella detrimental to 'FUN', especially since Free Movement stims aren't instant.

[Bloodhoundje]

Bump!,

I would like to be able to walk with my keeper again when pvping, nothing more annoying to get rooted, then spam free movement stims for like what 4-6 times, and when the root almost ends, the nt/fixer/agent/crat/trader spams another root on top of it, and I can start over again. Especially now that nano is not an issue anymore for any1 its so easy to permaroot someone. Maybe increase the nanocost significant on roots? So people cant spam them infinit?

[Ashes2Ashes]

To be a little more clear on this. I don't want to ruin any professions CC ability in pvm by adjusting roots/snares. I don't like peoples toolset in pvm to be adjusted just because one of thier tools is OP in pvp. So what I think is fair is to flag the current roots/snares unusable in pvp.

Then create new balanced roots/snares that can be used in pvp. Or if it's possible like they are doing with some perks, just have them work differently in pvm/pvp. Then you wouldn't even need to make new ones. Don't know if thats possible currently or not in game mechanics.

[DePreach]

It is a crats only way to mitigate damage. No heals, low hp, no shields.

This would nerf an already nerfed profession.

I also think all specials should have a 2:30 lockout, so using any special will lock out all other specials on a player, and heals... can we have a 2:30 lockout on heals? So when I am PvPing my opponent can only heal once every 2 or 3 minutes? Oooh same with GTH NSD Skill Nano and HP Drains, also any other debuffs which lower my crit, lower my NR

Ill thought through idea born from QQ. There are plenty of items that give innate resistance, free movement stims that can remove chunks of time from snares, you just don't want to use either because it would lower your AR. The game is about compromise, you want the moon on a stick.

[Ashes2Ashes]

It is a crats only way to mitigate damage. No heals, low hp, no shields.

This would nerf an already nerfed profession.

I also think all specials should have a 2:30 lockout, so using any special will lock out all other specials on a player, and heals... can we have a 2:30 lockout on heals? So when I am PvPing my opponent can only heal once every 2 or 3 minutes? Oooh same with GTH NSD Skill Nano and HP Drains, also any other debuffs which lower my crit, lower my NR

Ill thought through idea born from QQ. There are plenty of items that give innate resistance, free movement stims that can remove chunks of time from snares, you just don't want to use either because it would lower your AR. The game is about compromise, you want the moon on a stick.

And if everyone was ranged how would you mitigate damage then? Locking out half the professions from doing anything in return to being rooted/snared to one spot while ranged attacks reign down on you is fair how? If it's crats "only way" to mitigate damage, then maybe crats should look to suggest another way to FC to improve thier survival abilities than totally shutting down the abilities of melee's.

As far as free movement stim goes, you get through 4-5 applications, your almost free... Then here comes the next refreshed root/snare so now the poor sod is back to square 1. Spamming free movement stims, all the while taking damage, and posing no threat to the ranged user. Who basically has blanket immunity to the melee profession they are locking down.

That is not balanced nor fair. If you have issues with your professions ability to survive then by all means make some suggestions in another thread. But the way roots / snares work currently is not fun, nor balanced.

[Frubaliscious]

we all have tools to deal with roots and snares, lots of them.

use them, and maybe stay on queue with asking for an improved motr, timer adjustments, whatever...enough with the lockout crap. >< I agree we could use more improved ways of dealing with it, but just delete the word LOCKOUT from all future threads k.

[Jjin]

I had a similar idea a while back, but I suggested temporary immunity on the target rather then lockouts for the caster. In hindsight, lockouts might be a good idea for calms if they became usable in pvp. I'd also add blinds to this list.

Make all existing roots/snares/calms usuable only in pvm. Make a new line of roots/snares/calms usuable only in pvp. Match them up with what profs can already do. For example, if your prof has pvm roots, it also gets pvp roots.

Make pvp roots last 10s. When one lands the target gets both the hostile root and a friendly buff that makes them immune to pvp roots for 60s. The root can not be resisted by anything but NR. It does not break if damage is taken or hostile nanos land and can't be removed or reduced.

Make pvp snares last 10s. When one lands the target gets both the hostile snare and a friendly buff that makes them immune to pvp snares for 60s. The snare can not be resisted by anything but NR. It does not break if damage is taken or hostile nanos land and can't be removed or reduced.

Make pvp calms last 10s. When one lands the target gets both the hostile calm and a friendly buff that makes them immune to pvp calms for 60s. The calm can not be resisted by anything but NR. It should have a 100% chance to break if damage is taken or hostile nanos land. It would only be useful for temporarily removing a player from combat. It should not work as a on-demand stun proc.

[ephedrae]

Those who have roots need them. Those who really don't have grafts, so nerf the grafts and keep roots how they are.

IF they have to get nerfed for some weird reason then, not MAYBE make them unremovable but damn sure make them unremovable for a bunch of seconds.

[Ashes2Ashes]

I had a similar idea a while back, but I suggested temporary immunity on the target rather then lockouts for the caster. In hindsight, lockouts might be a good idea for calms if they became usable in pvp. I'd also add blinds to this list.

Make all existing roots/snares/calms usuable only in pvm. Make a new line of roots/snares/calms usuable only in pvp. Match them up with what profs can already do. For example, if your prof has pvm roots, it also gets pvp roots.

Make pvp roots last 10s. When one lands the target gets both the hostile root and a friendly buff that makes them immune to pvp roots for 60s. The root can not be resisted by anything but NR. It does not break if damage is taken or hostile nanos land and can't be removed or reduced.

Make pvp snares last 10s. When one lands the target gets both the hostile snare and a friendly buff that makes them immune to pvp snares for 60s. The snare can not be resisted by anything but NR. It does not break if damage is taken or hostile nanos land and can't be removed or reduced.

Make pvp calms last 10s. When one lands the target gets both the hostile calm and a friendly buff that makes them immune to pvp calms for 60s. The calm can not be resisted by anything but NR. It should have a 100% chance to break if damage is taken or hostile nanos land. It would only be useful for temporarily removing a player from combat. It should not work as a on-demand stun proc.

I like this suggestion as well. Keep the ideas rolling in, I think FC already has plans to scale back roots/snares in the works already. When looking at perk documentation on the length of hostile nano/effects durations in pvp vs. pvm. I also think they will carry this trend over to nano's while they are balancing that. Got my fingers crossed, but I am pretty certain they will definately rework roots/snares.

[Xenotric]

Remove and/or nerf most the removal/resistance stuff in game before you start nerfing the roots and snares.

Yes its annoying being rooted in place/snared for a few seconds but its even more annoying spamming your entire nanopool to get a core tool to land only to have it removed in seconds.

Currently theres no way to completely lock anyone who's invested a few credits into stims down for any major length of time.

The one thing I will concede to though is refreshing constantly, though removing the ability completely is also unhelpful. Many people need to spam to get them to land and some of these dont have infinite nanopool so they are already at a disadvantage, however I do admit that refreshing them could do with being a bit harder for some (though for others its not much of an issue) and a simple addition of something like say, 20% resistance stat on the snares and roots would do that fine.

[Vurtuoso]

Those who have roots need them. Those who really don't have grafts, so nerf the grafts and keep roots how they are.

IF they have to get nerfed for some weird reason then, not MAYBE make them unremovable but damn sure make them unremovable for a bunch of seconds.

I call shinanigans, people use the soldier reflect aura from the graft all the time, if they nerf grafts then they have to penalty the use of the shield big time. But yes I agree with the general concensus, root/snares need to be recalculated to have cooldowns.

[Shrubberyman]

I'm all for roots being nerfed as long as it come with the deleting from the database of Spatial Displacement, root freeing stims, motr, tacky hack, and advie's boon. Oh, and of course, as long as root profs get an additional 1k def to make up for the loss of a tool that most melee peofs already have a defence again, two if you count NR.

There, I think we explored both ends of ridiculous suggestions on this matter.

[Ashes2Ashes]

I'm all for roots being nerfed as long as it come with the deleting from the database of Spatial Displacement, root freeing stims, motr, tacky hack, and advie's boon. Oh, and of course, as long as root profs get an additional 1k def to make up for the loss of a tool that most melee peofs already have a defence again, two if you count NR.

There, I think we explored both ends of ridiculous suggestions on this matter.

When you root / snare a ranged user they can attack you back via weapons, nukes, pets, perks, but when you do the same to melee they have no way of attacking you. Thier weapons don't have 40m range, nor do thier perks. They don't have nukes, nor pets that can reach you either. So as long as you keep refreshing your roots / snares they are basically a free kill for you, or any other ranged users that happen to be there.

Ah, yea, that seems pretty fair to me

The "ridiculous" part is that it has gone on for so long without any changes. And to add insult to injury, people even defend this kind of gameplay where you can lock a person down indefinately to one spot and beat on them until they are dead, all the while posing no threat to the person doing the roots/snares.

No one is asking for CC to be removed from pvp. CC is a very powerful tool vs. melee, to ranged users, not so much as they can still pose a threat to you. But to keep someone locked down who can't even attack back isn't right, fair, nor fun.

[Xenotric]

Thats only if you can refresh at the rate they are removed/broken which isn't exactly possible for any length of time.

Also not all ranged people have 40m range. And many people can move enough during snares that it isn't that bad.

[Ashes2Ashes]

Free movement stims are a joke in combat. By the time you almost get out from spamming them. All it takes is another root / snare, and your back where you started. Some have spacial displacement perks to remove them, but they are on a 1m timer. Whereas roots/snares don't, just another recast and you got the poor bugger trapped again.

Then you have MoTR, this has a long lockout timer on it. How exactly is that going to help beyond the few seconds your afforded immunity? Just kite, and reapply roots/snares after it's duration is out. Tacky Hack? Same thing, it's on a lockout timer. Unlike roots / snares that currently have no lockout.

All the tools to get out of roots / snares have lockout timers, but the roots / snares themselves don't. This is what needs fixing / balancing. Like I said, no one is advocating snares / roots be removed from pvp, but rather those powerful tools be balanced. Checks, and balances, nothing more I ask. As it is, there is no balance to those CC tools, as they are spammable.

[Xenotric]

takes I think 13 seconds to remove any of a high level fixers roots or snares, and thats if they can land em on you anyway. also takes around 5 second for them to recast it so your looking at atmost 2 attempts to land it again (which is more and more unlikely these days).

Not to mention 3 casts of them and the nano pools suffering even with cost reduction which stops us keeping stuff like hots up in fights.

[Ashes2Ashes]

Ok, so lets take your figures of 13s to get out. During that time your Fixer is doing free damage to the melee profession. How many specials can you cycle in 13s?

0s - Fling, Burst, FA/AS
6s - Fling
9s - Burst
11s - FA/AS
12s - Fling
------------------
Subtotal - 3 Flings, 2 Bursts, 2 FA / AS, 6 Reg Hits, + perks (how many can you squeeze in there in 13s?)

13s - Uh oh, time to refresh those roots/snares

Rinse and repeat the steps above.

Ya, that seems fair to me During that whole time, that melee profession is able to launch 0 - zero attacks agaisnt you...


How can people defend / justify this... It's practically cheating lol



P.S. As for nano cost killing your nano pool after 3 casts?! Greater Prolong Encounter - 643 nano cost, and Spin Nanoweb - 655 nano cost... 655*3 = 1965*.4 (40% nano cost on avg fixer) = 1179 ( lets say 100 nano delta) 100*6 = 600 // 1179-600 = 579 total nano loss from 3 casts... For nano cost to damage done.. that has to be the best Nuke ever.

[Eskarin]

Make NT roots UNREMOVABLE, 8-10 second duration and 30 second lock-out.

[Ashes2Ashes]

Make NT roots UNREMOVABLE, 8-10 second duration and 30 second lock-out.

See this is the kind of thing I like to see. While I think 30s is too quick of a lockout. It's a hell of alot more balanced that what currently is in game. Nice suggestion Eskarin