Why change AS when you just change the Multipliers

[Klodovik]

Custom implants for what exactly?

Xan Alpha Support symbiants have aad in both arms, all 3 evades in the waist, 2 evade skills and aad in the feet and 2 evade skills in the thigh.

50aad from the Spec Ed Ofab helm, Xan Defensive combat board is a no brainer for Docs now since it has as much HP as the Comfort of Saggitarious, 30 dodge ranged on the Pen Ofab sleeves (as well as 350 max health), Clan doctors do have an advantage with the defensive mods on Enhanced Jathos, I know a few docs that use Beast pants for the nano resist, which also has 30 to all evades.

Docs that want attack rating on their weapon already use at least some pieces of supple based armour and guess what, that usually means using some pieces of CSS because there's no ranged+HP skill armour. Want high nanoskills? Combined Scouts.

Seriously, you're posting as if Doctors are the only "not intended for high evades" profession that have to make sacrifices to reach the oh so uber ~3k defence, which, I hasten to add, is usually ~3k defence to -dodge ranged-, not all types of attacks.

Setup please. I can't believe until I see it.

[Hacre]

{removed}

No, you just don't seem to understand the fact that ~3k def to any attack skill isn't that fantastic anymore. This is 2009, not 2006. Professions that can actually make -use- of a ~3k static defence, do so due to the availability of things like AR debuffs which in turn gives them a temporary higher defence.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

No, you just don't seem to understand the fact that ~3k def to any attack skill isn't that fantastic anymore. This is 2009, not 2006. Professions that can actually make -use- of a ~3k static defence, do so due to the availability of things like AR debuffs which in turn gives them a temporary higher defence.

QFT.

The only other time a 3Kish static defence would help is if youre fighting someone in an uber defensive setup where they've sacrificed tons of AR.

[sultryvoltron]

Setup please. I can't believe until I see it.

http://auno.org/ao/equip.php?saveid=148216

I took Lupus' setup and changed all the Artillery symbs to Support, swapped 3 pieces of armor, made it Solitus.

Tada, with ql 275 towers this setup has 2936 Dodge Defense. Amazing!

There are ways to squeeze more defense out. I cant be asked to do more than I have already done.

[Darkkblood]

I'm not an expert on docs but from what I understand they don't fight full def so whatever def rating they can get would only really be good for avoiding a few perks.

regarding something that was also said way back in this thread about AS not one hit killing if I remember correctly it used to way back when I first started playing in 2001 I recall some agents in my noob guild talking about onshoting greens in meetmedre(the area next to the grid was 25% before AI). Anyway back on topic...

Yes evades might need some tweaking but from what i've heard being mentioned by FC how perks land will be looked into. SO if perks land and maybe scale a bit more based on how much you avoided there will be more dmg coming evade classes way. Also heals are being looked so another place survivability could take a hit for classes that are "god like" to some.

Personally I don't care how much dmg AS does there shouldn't be any special in game that can avoid defenses without some sort of way to avoid it. 3 second attach time with a chance to interrupt achieves this. I personally would have just added a def check to it but I'm interested to see how the FC way will work when it hits live.

Basically what I'm trying to say is don't focus on one change look at how all of the changes will effect things. Hopefully FC is doing the same from what i've seen they are.

[Klodovik]

http://auno.org/ao/equip.php?saveid=148216

I took Lupus' setup and changed all the Artillery symbs to Support, swapped 3 pieces of armor, made it Solitus.

Tada, with ql 275 towers this setup has 2936 Dodge Defense. Amazing!

There are ways to squeeze more defense out. I cant be asked to do more than I have already done.

That's less then 2700.

[Pomidor]

attacks which land 100% should be low dmg
attacks which have a high check should be huge dmg

If AS was given a 20% max hit, because it's gauranteed to land, it would make sense.

SA could stay at 30% because it has a longer recharge.

FA could be given a 40% max hit, because it checks.

I'm not suggesting this, but I'm just throwing it out there as a way to balance the benefit of having an attack that WILL land, vs the probability that the hit may not even land.

Coming from an MA this makes a lot of sense. My hotswap sapphistic bow AS's only hit for about 1500-2000 dmg a lot of the time, rarely, EVER so rarely, I'd get a big hit, but, against evader profs who you actually need the 1500 hit on, it works perfectly, it's quite consistent.

While I do agree with such idea, this is completly impossible to be done in terms of wast PVP ranges. You see, on low lvls (tl2 and 3) FA will always land (unless its GA fixer) or HIGHLY twinked Trader/MP (thats for TL3 ofc) - this would render FA way much OP and everyone would roll Fix/Sold for FA.

AS is powerful attack but it starts shine after certain lvl/setup. I dont see often geting caped (or even close to cap!) at tl2 or TL3.

I would do multipliers for Proffesion, not attack itself.

Lets say (pvp wise):

Agent: 30%
Soldier: 20%

All others: 10%

Thats for BASE attack.

I remember Keeprs and Enforcers were useing Nova for AR. I laughted not of them, but the game mechanics alowing them to pewepe with AS, like agents and soldiers.

Now, almost everyone can use AS (see Fixers at TL5,Traders) - thats bad!

[sultryvoltron]

That's less then 2700.

No. That's over 2900. It's over 2700 without towers or Sphere.

Change it to Opifex post-breed changes and its 2900 all the time. Leave it solitus post-breed changes and its over 3k on demand. Buff it GSF and it breaks 3k. Buff it RI and it goes even higher.

[Klodovik]

No. That's over 2900. It's over 2700 without towers or Sphere.

K, add in crat aura, and rrfe for reflects, and engie for blockers, and add in pocket trader for nano drain, and pocket soldier for FA/burst...

It's less then 2700 if selfed, without towers.

I have similar evades/AAD on my gimpy MP, but I get some extra from agil/sense/intel trickle (which is much higher in my case).

[Hacre]

Again, those who don't have an "intended" AS toolset, don't have fantastic multipliers already. It's weapons like the Silverback and the Tigress that give omg ASes more often than not due to the high end damage and the big crit mod.

AS multipliers are fine. Those intended to cap close to every time, Agents, already do. The rest, don't.

[Klodovik]

Again, those who don't have an "intended" AS toolset, don't have fantastic multipliers already. It's weapons like the Silverback and the Tigress that give omg ASes more often than not due to the high end damage and the big crit mod.

It should also be repeated again that you can't just slap on such weapons on your (support) toon, without sacrificing a lot to get 11-12 sec AS and which still doesn't cap as often as people that are jealous (agents in this case, obviously) like to claim.

AS multipliers are fine. Those intended to cap close to every time, Agents, already do. The rest, don't.

Exactly.

[sultryvoltron]

K, add in crat aura, and rrfe for reflects, and engie for blockers, and add in pocket trader for nano drain, and pocket soldier for FA/burst...

It's less then 2700 if selfed, without towers.

I have similar evades/AAD on my gimpy MP, but I get some extra from agil/sense/intel trickle (which is much higher in my case).

You are simply wrong.

I took my solitus Doctor's stats, extrapolated them to be 220/30, subtracted all his gear and perks, added on that setup I posted. You come out at 2724 Dodge with no towers and no sphere. I don't know how you are calculating it, but you're clearly missing something.

1182 Base Dodge Range
697 Dodge Range from Gear
845 AAD
--------------
2724 Dodge Defense
--------------
90 From ql 275 Transfer Tower
100 from Current Sphere
--------------
2914 Dodge Defense SELFED

Again, those who don't have an "intended" AS toolset, don't have fantastic multipliers already. It's weapons like the Silverback and the Tigress that give omg ASes more often than not due to the high end damage and the big crit mod.

AS multipliers are fine. Those intended to cap close to every time, Agents, already do. The rest, don't.

But there is still the inherent problem with AS itself. It doesn't take a huge amount of AS skill to use it effectively. It always hits, and it caps often enough that nearly every profession uses it. Changing the multipliers will only change how often people hit a high AS, but many professions are getting offensive boosts through other means which will make up the difference. So yes, the multipliers may be fine, but the skill itself is not fine. I disagree with the OP and I do think that the skill itself needs to change.

[Klodovik]

You are simply wrong.

I took my solitus Doctor's stats, extrapolated them to be 220/30, subtracted all his gear and perks, added on that setup I posted. You come out at 2724 Dodge with no towers and no sphere. I don't know how you are calculating it, but you're clearly missing something.

1182 Base Dodge Range
697 Dodge Range from Gear
845 AAD
--------------
2724 Dodge Defense

That's far from 3.1k, even if it's not less then 2700 as I claimed.

--------------
90 From ql 275 Transfer Tower
100 from Current Sphere
--------------
2914 Dodge Defense SELFED

Not everyone has towers, not everyone is solitus, it's not constant, still not over 3000, other evades are almost 100 points lower. So... Meh.

And besides, to stay on topic. In such setup, this doctor won't cap his AS.

[sultryvoltron]

That's far from 3.1k, even if it's not less then 2700 as I claimed.



Not everyone has towers, not everyone is solitus, it's not constant, still not over 3000, other evades are almost 100 points lower. So... Meh.

And besides, to stay on topic. In such setup, this doctor won't cap his AS.

Agents can only get 3.1k defense with 275 towers and the other evades are considerably lower.

You asked for a setup that got 3k dodge defense as a Doctor. There you have it. If I felt like it, I might change a few items around to actually push it over 3k, but I don't. The point is just as valid at 2900 defense as it is at 3000 defense. It's simply not that much anymore and nearly everyone can get defense ratings that high.

A much more realistic setup for post-balancing would actually be wearing Scouts to land NR checking perks and would sacrifice the capping AS with a 3s fire time, but I guess you only want to win arguments and not talk about balance.

[tweeeek]

2914 Dodge Defense SELFED

so for the majority of the population this is infact 2724~ dodge or about 300 less then you stated, which btw makes you perkable to pretty much anyone

[Kazeren]

Just a few things to point out...

Your setup only works on ranged or nano based setups, fails on melee.

Doctors cant/dont play on full def, making the point of a evade setup fairly worthless. If they do play on full def they give up a ton of hp/ar/nano skills to get the 3600 nano inti to cast BI in full def. Which is completely screwed if 1 debuff that lowers intis lands. Or they use a lower level heal which decreases their defense.

Evades doctor has been tested and even used - AAO debuffs on the target and it still isnt viable.

Your heal eff will also be 15-20 points lower then most docs. Your nano delta is sucks kinda bad 200ish with city? Your -cost also isnt high enough. Seeing how bulk of the damage will still come from dots/malp you wont be lasting very long as far as nano is concerned, meaning you will die faster even though you have a higher def rating.

[Anarrina]

Reopening this thread after cleaning 22 posts and editing several more. Lets try to bring this away from exactly defensive setups and back to topic, so I don't have to go through and cut out even more posts from it. And - I say this in all good humor - if those of you who are consistently doing back and forth ping-ponging of posts between just two posters while arguing the whole time could kindly either get a room or take it to private tells, it would be appreciated. Thank you.

[sultryvoltron]

Reopening this thread after cleaning 22 posts and editing several more. Lets try to bring this away from exactly defensive setups and back to topic, so I don't have to go through and cut out even more posts from it. And - I say this in all good humor - if those of you who are consistently doing back and forth ping-ponging of posts between just two posters while arguing the whole time could kindly either get a room or take it to private tells, it would be appreciated. Thank you.

You deleted the part where I finally got on topic!

It had something to do with multipliers being fine, and AS not being fine.

[Artyomis]

Several ideas regarding AS.
- implement minimal AS recharge time for different professions. Let's say - agents can have 11s recharge, profession 2 - 15 sec, profession 3 - 17 sec, profession 4 - 20 sec, and so on. While AS skill used to affect recharge cycle, it also affected AS damage thanks to multipliers. This way, multipliers will only affect damage, but not recharge cycle.
Answer is pretty easy - want higher AS damage - spend more IP. But, due to profession specification - you will not get recharge cycle faster than N seconds.

Such solution can turn AS into secondary offensive tool to most professions.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Several ideas regarding AS.
- implement minimal AS recharge time for different professions. Let's say - agents can have 11s recharge, profession 2 - 15 sec, profession 3 - 17 sec, profession 4 - 20 sec, and so on. While AS skill used to affect recharge cycle, it also affected AS damage thanks to multipliers. This way, multipliers will only affect damage, but not recharge cycle.
Answer is pretty easy - want higher AS damage - spend more IP. But, due to profession specification - you will not get recharge cycle faster than N seconds.

Such solution can turn AS into secondary offensive tool to most professions.

absolutely.

Add to that the maximum multiplier, and you've got a heavily handicapped special, which is exactly what it should be.

We've got to move away from AS online, and give agents back the one thing that they really excelled at.

The rest of the profs in AO have toolsets. Lets see those toolsets get used, and leave AS to those who are supposed to use it.

Arty: I love your idea. A corollary to it might be that some profs could have a fast AS recharge with low multipliers, or high multipliers with slow recharge and execution. Or, make it non prof specific, except for agents who get the critical mode on a slider... as follows:

IMo, there should actually be a slider, which designates your style which goes from fast execution to max multipliers:

It could be the "cowboy <--> sniper" slider, where:

At full cowboy, you get an instant execution, max multipliers of like 5x, and 8s recharge.
At full sniper you get max multipliers of 40x, a 5s execution, and 20s recharge, (at full sniper (agent only, there is a 20k damage cap, 40% damage cap in PVP, and no damage cap in PVM for agent only (lol?))

Sliders FTW!