Why change AS when you just change the Multipliers

[TheOnlyTruth]

AS is great for pvpers cause it doesn't take too much skill to cap a hit on someone. Easiest fix to reduce the ganking, change the multipliers so it's harder to do so and give some profs that need AS to be effective at PVP an easier chance to cap......instead of adding some 3 sec stand still interruptable AS which is prolly going to be buggy from the get go. And instead of fixing it, you'll take another year to revert back to original AS.

Though SA/FA/AS locking each other out is fair I guess. But what's the matter with ganking? It's type of playstyle. Ganking setups usually sacrifice the long term survival, which is a fair trade off. Plus it adds more adrenaline to pvp instead of the slow-trade a few hits pvp you guys apparently have in mind. Fast paced pvp> slow paced pvp

[Parranoid1]

hmmm you may be onto something here. this is a good idea, i wonder if any1 else has ever thought of this.

althought it does help with the nerfing of it, it dosnt help with the fact that people can just kite kite and hit AS, if it caps, yay, if it doesnt, u can run for 11 secs and try again. i think thats y its being changed to this.

but this is a good thought, and i like

[McKnuckleSamwich]

I agree. By reducing the multipliers you could quickly make AS a FAR less attractive option for many classes, and forcing them to become reliant on their toolset.

I'm so tired of being AS'd by pistol weilding docs and losing 3.5-4k HP on an AS that should never have been available to them in that capacity unless they had sacrificed a lot of their normal setup.

It's not that they shouldn't have AS. It's that there are too many profs that enjoy the high multipliers.

/totally agree.

[TheOnlyTruth]

hmmm you may be onto something here. this is a good idea, i wonder if any1 else has ever thought of this.

althought it does help with the nerfing of it, it dosnt help with the fact that people can just kite kite and hit AS, if it caps, yay, if it doesnt, u can run for 11 secs and try again. i think thats y its being changed to this.

but this is a good thought, and i like

I understand ppl's anger with annoying kiters but that's when your own fast reaction times come into play. Root grafts can usually handle most kiters.

Why you may complain about kiters? Have you ever stopped for a second and see why this prof xxx always kites this prof yyy. It's because XXX has no defense against yyy and basically no offense. Therefore kiting AS is ur only option at killing YYY. So nerfing AS with a 3 second waiting period will just serve to further skew pvp rather than balancing it.

If anything a stronger AS should be given to profs with weaker offensives such as Fixers.

[navycut]

How exactly is having SA+AS+FA overpowered again?

Sold uses FA + AS, this isn't overpowered.

MA use AS+SA, again not overpowered.

Shades sometimes use AS + SA in gank attempts, not really overpowered here again...

Haven't even seen any agents even use a PE lately.

Fixers use FA/AS not op in anyway

Removing these things just dumbs down the game and reduces some complexity and such imo.

[TheOnlyTruth]

How exactly is having SA+AS+FA overpowered again?

Sold uses FA + AS, this isn't overpowered.

MA use AS+SA, again not overpowered.

Shades sometimes use AS + SA in gank attempts, not really overpowered here again...

Haven't even seen any agents even use a PE lately.

Removing these things just dumbs down the game and reduces some complexity and such imo.

Most agents removed PE from their setups since they announced their nerfing as most people were doing IPRS and equipping Alpha symbs. The last effective PE swapper agent was hollyagent; he still failed at ganking some defensive styled agents but had no trouble with AR agents. Which goes to show that ganking is a style that has it's weaknesses and strengths and should not be removed from game.

[Parranoid1]

I understand ppl's anger with annoying kiters but that's when your own fast reaction times come into play. Root grafts can usually handle most kiters.

Why you may complain about kiters? Have you ever stopped for a second and see why this prof xxx always kites this prof yyy. It's because XXX has no defense against yyy and basically no offense. Therefore kiting AS is ur only option at killing YYY. So nerfing AS with a 3 second waiting period will just serve to further skew pvp rather than balancing it.

If anything a stronger AS should be given to profs with weaker offensives such as Fixers.

hmm it wouldnt really skew it, people kite alot, its kills melee profs, give melee prof a small window to catch up in the kite-fest. seems like a balance to me.

also im certain most people kite because kiting allows you to rather effectively dodge damage from melee professions, even a profession that has good defences Vs another will more then likely kite anyways as it minimises damage they take, and with basically every1 running around with capped runspeed, it needs a change.

Changing the multipliers is an excellent idea and /support for it

[MyGift]

How exactly is having SA+AS+FA overpowered again?

Sold uses FA + AS, this isn't overpowered.

MA use AS+SA, again not overpowered.

Shades sometimes use AS + SA in gank attempts, not really overpowered here again...

Haven't even seen any agents even use a PE lately.

Fixers use FA/AS not op in anyway

Removing these things just dumbs down the game and reduces some complexity and such imo.

AS+FA+Burst from solja isnt OP? In what world do u live...?

[Genie]

AS+FA+Burst from solja isnt OP? In what world do u live...?

FA and burst have defence checks.

[Mastablasta]

AS is great for pvpers cause it doesn't take too much skill to cap a hit on someone.

Could you elaborate on why this is a good thing, please?

[navycut]

AS+FA+Burst from solja isnt OP? In what world do u live...?

Nope it isn't.

[oldschools]

This game isnt ever going to be casual friendly in pvp. Normal players cant even land a single attack on the twinks with 2b+ invested in their characters. Noobs dont go out of their way to get rrfe etc when they want some quick pvp or they are not aware of how powerful it is.

The powerlevels achivable in this game are just out of the world. Even a poorly twinked character with level appropriate symbs and armor on is vastly more powerful than a first timers character of the same level and a top end twink is godlike in comparison.
At this point they might as well assume that anyone who pvp is a twink and has access to whatever best buffs and gear is available.

[tweeeek]

This game isnt ever going to be casual friendly in pvp. Normal players cant even land a single attack on the twinks with 2b+ invested in their characters. Noobs dont go out of their way to get rrfe etc when they want some quick pvp or they are not aware of how powerful it is.

some of the best and most fun twinks i have had cost me less then 200m, just puttin it out there that especially at lower levels you don't need 2b+ its know what items to get and what to do


ONTOPIC: just give as a def check(75% attack skill + 50% as VS 100% dodge), problem solved

[MyGift]

Nope it isn't.

Soldier can kill any low evade profession pretty easy cause of his insane FA/burst dmg. Only problem and challenge for soldiers are evade professions/docs and now u want AS(another caping specials) so u can deal with them easy too? Learn to play ur soldier if u got one...dont ask for EZ mode vs everyone.

@ Doniger

Yea burst and fa got def checks so now u want AS? Soldier dont have AS for a reason and that reason is his 3.5k + static AR with 11/8 sec specials which cap on most professions, Adding an AS on top of that is not balance...

[Wrangeline]

@ Doniger

Yea burst and fa got def checks so now u want AS? Soldier dont have AS for a reason and that reason is his 3.5k + static AR with 11/8 sec specials which cap on most professions, Adding an AS on top of that is not balance...

Adding?
Soldiers always had AS
As far as I know, soldiers haven't exactly been considered OP while having AS either.

I mean, soldiers have AS right at this very moment and soldiers are not even in the top 5 in the list of powerful professions, as far as I am concerned anyway. It's rare to see soldiers swap to AS as well. I hardly ever see it in BS or in NW or even wompah wars. The only people I see hotswapping for AS these days are keepers

I haven't seen AS-hotswap being OP on a soldier in duels either. Nor have I heard anyone else say it was.

[TheOnlyTruth]

Could you elaborate on why this is a good thing, please?

i wasn't saying it's a good thing, i just said pvpers like to go with specials that maximize their performance.

For all the people claiming that AS needs a defense check, think for a bit. How do you expect to kill a high evade prof without AS? AS is the only way of killing high evade professions.

What's the max ar most profs get?
What's the max def. evades defense profs can get?

Some say soldiers can get 3.5k ar.
Well some defense profs can get over 4k def.

There's a big gap between those 2 numbers, hence the reason why AS is needed without a defense check.

Any defense check will serve to further screw up pvp by making evade profs unkillable unless you have good nano damage.

It would help if people could give me the defense a typical endgame MA, fixer, advy, crat has. Please break them down into 2 parts, static and with perks/items.
I have an agent currently with 3k ar, 3.1k def and 3.35k ar with BE and I can never perk one of those profs and rarely land regular hits. AS is the only way I can possibly kill them.

[Xenotric]

Needing AS to kill evade professions would be true if perks where the only way to damage to hurt people.

a 500 gap in AR to Defense is not that big, with a a gap of about 2k can still land normal/specials sure at a reduced rate but can still land. High evades is not immunity or invincibility, its just a chance to avoid.

So lets count the ways you can hurt high evade professions:

Aimed shot
Sneak attack
Nano attacks
normal hits (enhanced if you have a high AR build)
Other special attacks (enhanced if you have a high AR build)

The only type of damage high evades reliably avoids is perk damage that checks against them and even that can be altered with stuff like mongo rage.

So wow yeah, I can see how having a 3 second charge time on aimed shot will make them invincible, specially considering the 3s charge one remains checkless, heals are being tweaked so those that have instant heals will get reduced a bit, there was talks of evades getting tweaked to allow regular attacks to land more often. Even if they added a defense check to the regular aimed shot, it would still land and still hurt.

No move should make someones entire defense completely useless without atleast having some major downside to it itself. (this goes for stuff like borrow reflect and 100% peircing nukes)

[Wrangeline]

I would just like to point out that when it comes to specials that have defense checks, like burst, full auto and so on, there's not actually a gradual increase or decrease in performance depending on AR. Either you hit or you don't.

If the first bullet of FA misses, which it does against evade classes more often than not, the rest of the bullets miss by proxy too so you do 0 damage.

If these specials were actually coded in a way that wasn't so idiotic, things would have been better all around. As with everything else in AO though, it's either on or off. That's why balance is so hard to achieve in AO because a tad more defense there turns some offense OFF and a tad more offense there turns some defense OFF.

Hitting 0 on some bursts and FA's and hitting max or almost max on some is not the same as hitting 50% damage on all bursts and FA's. This is because of 30% damage cap paired with people's regenerating/healing abilities. Against evading professions you need consistency more than anything else because if you miss just one special, they can regenerate a lot more then you can hurt them. So by taking AS out of the dependable group of attacks, evade professions would soon only be killable by NT's.

We shall see how evade professions do after all the various attacks, perks, nanos and abilities changes but for now, based on the info we have and the current state of things, giving AS a defensive check like on burst and FA or such is going to turn various profs into bars of soap that you can't pick up no matter how hard you try. Then you get perks and specials from these evade professions up your you-know-what while you are bending over to pick up that soap because you aren't an evade profession and so they can do to you what you can't do to them.

[TheOnlyTruth]

Needing AS to kill evade professions would be true if perks where the only way to damage to hurt people.

a 500 gap in AR to Defense is not that big, with a a gap of about 2k can still land normal/specials sure at a reduced rate but can still land. High evades is not immunity or invincibility, its just a chance to avoid.

So lets count the ways you can hurt high evade professions:

Aimed shot
Sneak attack
Nano attacks
normal hits (enhanced if you have a high AR build)
Other special attacks (enhanced if you have a high AR build)

The only type of damage high evades reliably avoids is perk damage that checks against them and even that can be altered with stuff like mongo rage.

So wow yeah, I can see how having a 3 second charge time on aimed shot will make them invincible, specially considering the 3s charge one remains checkless, heals are being tweaked so those that have instant heals will get reduced a bit, there was talks of evades getting tweaked to allow regular attacks to land more often. Even if they added a defense check to the regular aimed shot, it would still land and still hurt.

No move should make someones entire defense completely useless without atleast having some major downside to it itself. (this goes for stuff like borrow reflect and 100% peircing nukes)

Have you not taken account heal delta, and hots. If i didn't have AS, i won't have a single chance to kill a crat, fixer, ma, or advy. As it is, good advies can outheal AS under ubt. Fixer's hots can easily outheal regular hits.

SA will lockout AS....
High ar builds are still ineffective against evade profs unless you can perk them.

As for using MR, not everyone is atrox. But if that's ur solution just give everyone MR, then how is it any different than AS? Hell if i was an evade prof, i rather my opponent has AS, than MR. Cause a perk alpha can do way more damage than a 30% capping special.

But in the end, i have little faith this would be considered. Because the dev team is so intent in changing everything. If you nerf everything, how will you be able to calculate the outcome of your changes. They cannot predict how pvp or pvm will be after all these changes. Neither can anyone else. It's just too much change. Changing how regular hits work, heals work, special works, perks work would most likely end up screwing pvp more than it is now. Plus, most toons will most likely have to redo their entire setup, which is sure to be a demotivator to most paying customers.

As well, if FC is hoping for regular hits dmg to be the main type of pvp dmg, pvp will crawl to a standstill and be incredibly boring.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

attacks which land 100% should be low dmg
attacks which have a high check should be huge dmg

If AS was given a 20% max hit, because it's gauranteed to land, it would make sense.

SA could stay at 30% because it has a longer recharge.

FA could be given a 40% max hit, because it checks.

I'm not suggesting this, but I'm just throwing it out there as a way to balance the benefit of having an attack that WILL land, vs the probability that the hit may not even land.

Coming from an MA this makes a lot of sense. My hotswap sapphistic bow AS's only hit for about 1500-2000 dmg a lot of the time, rarely, EVER so rarely, I'd get a big hit, but, against evader profs who you actually need the 1500 hit on, it works perfectly, it's quite consistent.