make RRFE self only

[Obtena]

I don't really see the logic behind nerfing a buff that everyone can use but not nerfing others? What was the criteria for establishing that RRFE is the buff that needs to be self only but not others? I mean, of all the buffs, it's the MOST balanced because it's based on percentages, not absolute values of your HP, so regardless of your HP, it's deflecting the same relative amounts of HP from everyone.

[Kopecz]

H888, could you clear up if you're only calling for RRFE to be self only or the whole soldier reflect line. And if just RRFE then do you think it's okay for everyone to still run around with MRFE for 2% less reflects? Where do you think the cutoff should be?

[heartless888]

H888, could you clear up if you're only calling for RRFE to be self only or the whole soldier reflect line. And if just RRFE then do you think it's okay for everyone to still run around with MRFE for 2% less reflects? Where do you think the cutoff should be?

ofc i mean the entire line, or else people would just ask for 28%

as for people who say they cant pvm without rrfe, thats my point, if the devs see you cant do it solo where you SHOULD be able to, they will give some love, so that you DONT need rrfe, and i wont cry because people are hard to kill due to my OWN buff, see what i mean?

[Xenotric]

I just dont see any real reason for them to nerf 2 professions nano lines, removing a highly useful tool from everyone.

I mean I rarely bother getting it as 30% reduction generally doesnt stop people or monster wtfpwning me, but on the rare occasion I do go grab it for some pvming it doesn't suddenly make me god but it makes things a tad easier.

So far there has been no real arguement as to why it should be nerfed other then "some professions can be overpowered with it" but thats more of an issue with that profession then this nano.

[Kopecz]

ofc i mean the entire line, or else people would just ask for 28%

Thanks for the clarification.

So far there has been no real arguement as to why it should be nerfed other then "some professions can be overpowered with it" but thats more of an issue with that profession then this nano.

I think that's kind of the point. And it wouldn't nerf engis either as they'd still have access to their reflects as self only. And of top of all that reflect grafts and pill packs are hacked to everyone would still have to those. And if you really want/need the reflects in pvp then just team a soldier and don't run solo. They might be nice enough to run around w/ PNS in exchange for umbrals, heals, layer spam, etc.

[Hacre]

Since everyone can get RRFE if they want it, ie, Soldier available, I don't see the issue here, there's no imbalance, because it's available for all.

Also, it's a Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game, why shouldn't we be allowed to cast buffs on others? There's 14 professions and for most things, you go with 6 people, so naturally you'll ask a few others that are happy to buff you, but not getting involved in what you're doing, be it PvP or PvM, for a boost from their toolset.

Besides. Say there's one Soldier on one side on the Battlestation. It's side vs side, shouldn't the side with the Soldier have an advantage, rather than just 5 from that side? If not, why not?

Before the OP comes at me with LOLZOOLZOZZOLZ YOU'RE ENNTEE YOU AM PIERCE REFLACTZ, I've come across plenty with rrfe on my Crat when I didn't have it and vice versa and when we all had it. It's part of the game, I don't see how it hinders any sort of balancing ideas in any way at all.

[MyGift]

Huge bump...

Some OSB makes professions way OP specially rrfe. Killing an 30k hp enf with 3k def on top with rrfe is kinda job for an raid force. Same goes for doc if u dont have some crazy debuffer near.

Making some buff self only would affect balancing act alot. Tho it should stay on some reasonable lvl. Ability giving buffs should stay as they are no matter what side effects they have.

[Wrangeline]

One of the reasons AO PvP is less popular than it could have been is because of outside buffs and PvP'ers general view on them.

I can say with absolute confidence that having outside buffs make a character more powerful than most of his gear does, is a HUUUUGE design flaw. AO has many incredibly large design flaws but players and devs alike are so used to it all that they shrug their shoulders and say "that's AO", while never truly stopping to have a look at the big picture and realize what all these design flaws actually have done to the game over the years.

As an old-timer in this game, I have grown used to how stuff works in AO and as such I don't care about it so much. I have accepted AO for all its flaws. Having that said, that little part of my brain that is capable of critical thinking and to view situations from point of views other than my own, haven't dried up into a shriveled husk yet so it is still showing me mental images in great detail of what this game would be like if certain things were just a little bit different.

These buffs are not the biggest design flaw in AO though. I'm not even sure if they would reach top 3. In case anyone is curious, the number 1 design flaw in AO is AC on mobs in SL and FC's approach to that AC. It's the strangest "addition" to a game I have ever seen.

Btw, if I sound angry, it's because I am but it's not because of this topic. I was forced to stop taking my arthritis medication 2 weeks ago and I'd gladly run head first into a wall to knock myself out so I would get a break from this damn arm and leg pain but I can't move that fast atm. Irony my dear friend!

*Insert 39 thousand curse-words*

[Pafpuf]

Make all buffs either self or group only, not only did you get rid of this topic but you also force people to team and got rid of the self-proclaimed "pro" pvpers who run solo yet whine all day on the forums how bad their class is for soloing; give this nerf that etc.

[Questra]

It's cool that this thread has been relatively flame/drama free so far. It seems that people in AO aren't as alarmed by this suggestion as many soldiers thought. Let's brainstorm a little, to think of the impact of the removal of RK reflect lines, from a soldier perspective, a non-soldier/non-engie one, a general balance one, and a dev perspective.

Soldiers:

Pro - We'd be just as popular to be teamed in PvP as we are in PvM. This can be good for us in some ways because we're more likely to be teamed and therefore healed, given AAO auras and umbrals (rather than others going solo because they don't need to be teamed)

Small Con - Some people prefer PvPing solo, it's often fun, and we'll be seen as greedy if we choose to.

Big Pro - We no longer need to use a crap reflect aura or RRFE ourselves and run out of NCU in order to keep our team RRFEed in BS and NW.

Con - We have to stay roughly close to the team. If we chase that enf at 10% HP to C our team might loose reflects.

Pro - We have to stay roughly close to the team. We don't get alphaed when we zone to C and find the enf has 4 NT friends

Big Pro - Sometimes, this will ultimately result in fewer people having reflects, so not only a soldier's but everyone's damage will increase in those situations.

Con - This could generate anger towards soldiers which could limit us achieving other goals. We could be seen as greedy, even though engies have already asked for 7x team blockers to be phased out and noone seemed to notice.

Non-soldier/non-engie:

Con - If no soldier is around or there aren't enough for every time (neither of which is likely), you will go without reflects.

Pro - If the opposing side is without reflects (which is also unlikely) you will do a lot more damage.

Con - Any defensive-focuses lowbie twinks will have a harder time and be made less viable. At some levels this will make some profs who can kill others easily even more unbalanced.

Pro - Same as above. Some twinks at some levels are unbalanced for the opposite reason, because they're too hard to kill with RRFE.

Con - When soloing on RK and doing quests, you'll take more damage. This also affects froobs levelling, solo or teamed.

General balance:

Big Pro - Teamplay and coordination would be more important. Not only would you have to stick together and work as a team to recieve heals, crat auras, and blockers, but now reflects too. Better teamwork is good for balance, because teamwork should be rewarded.

Con - Casual PvP on BS would suffer. Sometimes people just want to go to BS and pew pew for recreation and fun. Teamplay requires intense concentration and the more it's required, the less casual things are.

Devs:

Pro - Simply removing RK reflects from the database seems to me to be easier than making new nanos.

Con - Any time spent doing this would mean less time allocated for reading the soldier forums to look at what a large chunk of your customers are asking for! (hint hint)

Some of those thoughts are there for humour, but as you can see most of them are different sides of the same coin. It seems to me that RRFE being self only wouldn't be as huge a change as some people think it would be.

[Xenotric]

Yes nano's have always had a fairly large effect on characters, before shadowlands this was because that was the entire toolset, unlike other MMO's people didn't have a huge variety of attacks and moves, they just had the standard attacks and specials and their nano's.

Even now with perk attacks being the "damage" (atleast according to the forums thats how everyone but NT's do damage) theres not much variety beyond the nano's.

As for a single buff being better then all the equipment, I can't think of a single buff that could replace a decent equip set. Sure 30% damage reduction is quite a bit but its nothing if you dont already have AC and HP to support it. Even putting a bunch of different buffs on would only make up so much of a persons equipment boost unless were talking about low levels getting end game buffs.

Also questra, dont forget not everyone can use the aura's.

[Obtena]

So far there has been no real arguement as to why it should be nerfed other then "some professions can be overpowered with it" but thats more of an issue with that profession then this nano.

That's not even a real argument. It effects all professions the same amount because it's a relative effect, not absolute. There's no argument for the nerf.

[lostlife]

to heartless888, the problem with making a problem worse to get more attention from fc is flawed logic, what if fc waits a year, what if fc waits 3 years. what your proposing is for FC to create a problem, so that they can solve it later. more work on stuff like that means less work on new content, which means has been placing alot of FC's resources into in order to keep people playing. which is important. nerfing makes people quit, more people than when seeing that the grass is greener on the darkside (OSBs) would cause, because in that case, you have the option to join old vader

if we could see more info on what are profs are supposed to be (either nanos, reitemization, or just a "what chars are supposed to be" post) we could stop this squabbling on what we think fc thinks we should be and do, and start squabbling about how any new advy content (regardless of size or if its valuable or not) should be nerfed

[Kinkstaah]

I can say with absolute confidence that having outside buffs make a character more powerful than most of his gear does, is a HUUUUGE design flaw.

Honestly, I'd rather wear my gear and have no rrfe, vs ofab and rrfe.
But the fact of the matter is, removing RRFE from everyone else and leaving soldiers as they are (combined with heal nerf?) is ... an obvious "please buff my class unrealistically" request.

[Waffen]

How about finally opening tower areas in SL so RRFE wouldn't make a difference?

[Flyingengi]

I personally hate having to fight people with rrfe...but you can't exactly make it self only because you have froobs to worry about.

Not only does it remove 30% of dmg, but I've calced that it does close to 2.5k dmg on my tl2 enfo over a 1 minute peroid. That's alot of dmg at tl2...not counting the weapons attacking you.

[Bigbluebear]

Bump for;

[xxxxx]: hey rrfe plx

Spam reduction!

[Dopecat]

H888, could you clear up if you're only calling for RRFE to be self only or the whole soldier reflect line. And if just RRFE then do you think it's okay for everyone to still run around with MRFE for 2% less reflects? Where do you think the cutoff should be?

Im not H888, but wouldnt the logical place to drop it at be the highest Reflect Graft we have around, that 13% one.

The problem is though, that then it would be just fair to also drop other profession strong OBs down too like Behe, Superior Omni-Med, GSF, HnQ, mochams etc. Taking away Behe from lowbies would for example change low level twinking hugely. So kinda hard to draw the line there.

Id still be happy to see those scaled down moderately. Maybe make Behe the exception due its twinking potential. But if for example all the HP+gsf+HnQ were only level locked, and mochams not, it would make traders even more OP. And NR perked profs like agents wouldnt work at all anymore then against em. So yeah, these kind of changes would have far-fetching concequences which makes it sort of hard to do it right.

But sure would be intresting change if all these buffs (that dont affect twinking) were given TL4 lock. Lowbie PVP would go through BIG changes and people would have to adapt. Unfortunately many toons would get wrecked too in the process.


From Tl7 perspective... well yeah, as soon as you first remove 7 TEAM blockers and other even more OP things.

[Hacre]

No one is arguing with engies over removing 7 team blockers, because they're more OP than RRFE has ever been.

1 blocker = 1 special 100% reflected.

RRFE doesn't even compare, especially since the reflect change.

Besides if this is about encouraging teaming, then RRFE isn't an issue anyway. A large argument from the OP has been centred around taking a doc or Enforcer down solo. Well that encourages teaming already. Removing RRFE would be promoting more solo PvP, if anything.

[MyGift]

No one is arguing with engies over removing 7 team blockers, because they're more OP than RRFE has ever been.

1 blocker = 1 special 100% reflected.

RRFE doesn't even compare, especially since the reflect change.

Besides if this is about encouraging teaming, then RRFE isn't an issue anyway. A large argument from the OP has been centred around taking a doc or Enforcer down solo. Well that encourages teaming already. Removing RRFE would be promoting more solo PvP, if anything.

This. Engi team blockers make team with doc+eng godlike...special blockers should be engi only.

Also those nanos that are specific for some professions like blockers on engi, huge reflects on soldier or hots on fixer should be self only.