REAL sneak attack and Aimed shot

[Axtilmor]

#1: STOP comparing Real life to a Game. Gun barrels in AO are made out of fuzzy bunnyrabits from hell, that dont melt even after 10 hours of consecutive shooting <- closer to truth, than what you are saying.

This is going in my sig. Arguments based on the hypothetical workings of any technology in a fictional universe should be relegated to the RP forums. The Balance forum in particular should be about balancing the game.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

well, I'd say the aimed shot CHANGES they are making are closer to what I've suggested than anyone elses preponderance theories about how RL shouldn't be compared to a game, and, if my reasoning is so bad, why would they be doing this?


I'll answer: because it is required to make balance. Aimed shot by definition REQUIRES aiming.

nothing too weird about that. and any advy run'n'gunner will tell you zomg I'm zooo nerfed, but in *game* reality, it's acutally exactly whats needed.

A couple small changes to the SA and backstab and we're going to be gravy.

I'm not saying we shouldn't have them, they should be named differently if they are to stay the same. sneak attack WAS good for PVM and old AO. it's not good in pvp, it should have a different name

Full auto isn't that bad because it's dodgeable. Ask any enforcer if it's OP'd though, and you will get an earful of how much they hate solds.

[Soosis]

well, I'd say the aimed shot CHANGES they are making are closer to what I've suggested than anyone elses preponderance theories about how RL shouldn't be compared to a game, and, if my reasoning is so bad, why would they be doing this?

Because it needs adjusting. NOT because you spammed forums, nor because "In Real Life, Mac once heard of a Gun that needed to be aimed"

Full auto isn't that bad because it's dodgeable. Ask any enforcer if it's OP'd though, and you will get an earful of how much they hate solds.

ok.

Me: "Hey Soosis, is FA OP? Do you hate it as a Enf"
Me: "Nah, Dem be soldiers. they want to shoot every bullet in the game, so let them"
Me: "But doesnt it hit you hard?"
Me: "Hell yeah. But thats what I get for being as big as a house I suppose. even I could hit a house with an FA...If I was shooting from the inside"

/RP Monolog

Ya know. Not all of us are whiners like you. FA is supposed to hit my Enf semi well, and it does. buu-effing-huu. That doesnt mean that FA needs a nerf. That means I brought a knife to a gun fight. /me logs Adv (proverbial gun)

[NoGoal]

Probably, at the close range we fire at in AO, but even if it didn't.. I'm fairly sure that a bullet crashing into the side your head with a velocity of over 2000 km/h is going to stun you. To the point you really won't put up a fight for a while, if it didn't break your neck (or had your skull penetrated) instead of just stunning you.

You trust TV too much :P Make it 100x the speed you said and yeah it could throw the target back and stun him. Well assuming the helmet isn't enhanced with nanotech and all futurist stuff.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

@soosi I'm not saying "nerf soldiers" Solds have enough problems as it is, I'm sure.

It's not about solds, it's about FC bringing guns into the game which have a ridiculous FA recharge.

We've all read about power creep, which occurs in these games, but, in AO it's been taken to the extreme.

Consider: when was the last time you heard a sold say: "I need to use item XX to keep my FA recharge capped". ? (same with agent), and why oh why is this happening with advies? Like, how in hell is an advy capping AS recharge?!

Do you see what I'm getting at? The point is that there is no mechanism left in game to KEEP people's damage in check. We are spamming FA faster than we can reload the gun, and ASing faster than it takes to ACTUALLY aim a gun!

And we are sneak attacking in broad daylight.

So, what I'm proposing is to take a look at the current mechanics. Yea endgame solds should be capping recharge. but, at 210? after just barely squeaking on a Dshark all of a suddent he FA recharge is easily cappable? I just don't get it.

one aspect that is at least still appealing to me is that on my MA I don't have a 11s AS. I have to wait for it, and I love it that there is still that potential there to move to if I (for whatever reason) decided to go there.

I vote for some change to give us some personal challenge on specials.

[Parranoid1]

like i said, nah dosnt need to change to from sneak only. if u wanna allow that then change it so u can sneak while some1 is Q on u. but ofc thats a stupid idea and i know that couse u would then near never be able to kill any agents or shades. YAY.

so basically AS getting nerfed = Yay
SA has a 40 sec recharge = YAYbalance
backstab requires target fighting other and has a defence check to miss = YAYbalance.

stop whine plx

and im guessing they didnt add the 3 sec execute time to simulate needing to aim, im guessing they did it to 1. give a chance to counter it thru melee interupt and 2. a chance to hit/kill the AS person in question b4 it hits and 3. to change the wwwwwwwww o wwwwwwwww o wwwwwwww o to wwwwwwwww o *wait....wait....* wwwwwwww o *wait.....wait....* etc.

and the whole compairing RL to game mechanics was summed up great by a quote i cbf finding that said in this game u can draw blood from a rock and give a spirit a virus etc. so... w/e

[Rktim]

Consider: when was the last time you heard a sold say: "I need to use item XX to keep my FA recharge capped". ?

Hmmmmmmmm...

When AO came out there was no one capping, exept maybe agents capping AS but i could be wrong on that one..

NW: See AO

When SL came (Soldiers finally got a SPB that they where able to cap after TONS of work, while most others could cap out and be awesome with specials fairly easy)

When AI came (Soldiers where about to give up on capping FA at all with AI because the AI weapons had such a huge recharge, finanlly some guy from NASA or something figured out that if you took a crap 160 FA pistol from SL and dualwielded it with a KMP you could get capped FA and tons of DD)

when LE came (Soldiers gazed with amazement at the OFAB shark only to realizing there was no way in hell they would be able to cap it until one of our professionals gazed on his awesome equip and proclaimed "Hey! This gun should be capable if you have as much FA as i do (not less tho)" but finally even he had to admit that it needed to be taken down a bit more, and the chase to cap it was on until FC had a minor meltdown and added the D-shark, pretty much just giving us what everyone else have had for a long time, the ability to cap our specials at 215...)

when LoX came (AoX still requierd some work to cap but not allot, about the same as the Ofab-shark, however ever sense LoX all PvM soldiers have been chasing those 11sec FAs with the SMGs, so basically the same thing as with AI but the other way around)

Oh right that has always been a issue for us in one way or another /facepalm its everyone else that close in at caps at 60-160 while we have to wait until 215-220, silly me ^___^

In short: Soldiers have said that more often then we have killed Enfos...

[Tergx]

Aimed shot should only be executable while NOT under attack, and target is more than 5m away from you.

Why ? I'd love to hear your logic. I think people take the word "Aimed" and use it very loosely. If I have a large claiber sniper rifle, and I am a mile away from a target it will require aiming. On the other hand, if that target starts running toward me, well I would't need as much aiming, especially at the ranges PvP is done in this game.

[lostlife]

from rping point of view
sneak:
verb (used without object)
1. to go in a stealthy or furtive manner; slink; skulk.
2. to act in a furtive or underhand way.
3. British Informal. to tattle; inform.

this definition was at dictionary.com

definition 1: who says the WHOLE BODY of the shade has to be concealed? why cant w have something up our sleeve (figurativly and litteraly), like a dagger made of residual notum in the air that takes the SA recharge to gather , and cant be seen (stealthy) till a hundreth of a second before the attack occurs.

definition 2: attacking in a underhand way, like groin kick or eye gouge or something

definition 3: some one care to take this one?

arguing about whats possible or not is a bit difficult when were talking about peopel with access to nanos that can kill something like the beast (cant remember what the story behind beast is, fisherking+the source i think)

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Thanks for that history on soldiers quest for capping, it's very informative.

I think having capped weapon specials should be a luxury. Not a right.

"I own a Dshark! Therefore I DESERVE 11s FA!!!!!!"

as opposed to:

"I strive to keep my specials capped, because it's the greatest benefit to my damage dealing potential"

So, what happened with the Dshark?

Anyway, all this stuff is sort of sidetracked, but, I still think that specials are OP'd.

Funny though, I am messing around with a duel shen setup on my MA for kicks, and I haven't been able to get 1 kill at BS in 3+ rounds.

[Saetos]

Funny though, I am messing around with a duel shen setup on my MA for kicks, and I haven't been able to get 1 kill at BS in 3+ rounds.

I told one guy who was trying to PVP with dual Shens to deequip his Shens.

Next time I saw him I asked how he was doing. Said he was very happy with the changes, and apparently he scored 4 kills or so in one game (which to him was a lot)

Shens = less crits in PVP, therefore less DD, therefore less kills

[McKnuckleSamwich]

I told one guy who was trying to PVP with dual Shens to deequip his Shens.

Next time I saw him I asked how he was doing. Said he was very happy with the changes, and apparently he scored 4 kills or so in one game (which to him was a lot)

Shens = less crits in PVP, therefore less DD, therefore less kills

well, I've just come from a SOFC+sapph swap setup, so I'm used to fast alphas... but, since I moved to australia I have about 1.5-3s lag on any swap, so it just doesn't work. hence why I'm trying to change my setup for a slower internet :/

the 2nd shen is being replaced by a 300 kyr rapier for SA (and FA) but need 300 strong/CC pants to equip. I'm going to test it prior to release of balance, to assess it's damage capacity. I had a full IPR to use, so figured why not get the jump on it and test some stuff.

[styles999]

Well as a evade class, honestly the only prob i really have are the following:

Doubles/triples
Aimed shot
sneak attack

should it hit me EVERYTIME?

the problem isnt really that it does hit u, the real issue is EVERYONE and their brother uses it because they dont miss, and with a zerg...thats a problem, i go to the bs, while im in decon i look at dmg that was done..

blahblah tried to hit you but missed!
blahblah hit you for 3000 aimed shot dmg!
attacked by blah1!
blah 1 hit you for 3000 aimed shot dmg.
blahblah hit you for 2000 sneakattack dmg
blahnt forced your ncu to run igz tripple
you were attacked with nanobots for 3200 nano dmg
you were attacked with nanobots for 3200 nano dmg
you were attacked with nanobots for 3200 nano dmg

ok so its alil over the top, but thats EXACTLY what happends 9/10 times on bs or zerg pvp.

I do notice tho, most ppl team w engis for spc attack blockers, then recruit a nt, and a trader and its nearly unstoppable trio atm

[lostlife]

zerg is a tactic, not a profession, and therefore doesn't need to be nerfed for killing every one. in 3-6 vs 1 pvp, it stands to reason that the 1 would die (pending unrealistic examples like the one being twinked to the max with very osb against laggy gimps that didnt even have time to buff themselves)

[Esproc]

Zerg is a method, calling it a tactic is giving it too much credit

As for doubles/triples if each of the hits was a different damage type it wouldn't be as bad for absorb profs, unfortunately those are the ones who aren't usually low hp xD

[Lheann]

Things to note:
Yes we can carry 100K's of round of ammo now. And 5 sets of armor and such. It was the community that screamed and cried and begged for encumbrance to be removed from the game after release. I find it funny that people now complain that we can carry everything we own and run at super human speeds at the same time. Which way do you really want it.

We had non-capping specials at release. FC added caps again because the community cried and begged for them to balance PVP.

Exactly what do you really want from the game. Myself, I want there to be no difference between mobs and players beside the human versus AI control. A 210 Enf mob in mission should be equivalent to a twinked out 210 player enforcer and combat should go the same for the most part. If there is no difference between PVM and PVP mechanics then FC could truly balance the game.

I do agree that "Sneak Attack" should require "Sneaking". Aimed shot well if it takes time and can be interupted during execution just like a real life aimed shot then I am all for a non-capping version.

[lostlife]

read my post on sneak definition, as for aim shot, it can be considered a moment of clarity (possibly nano enhanced) in which you quickly aim for a key body part. thing with RPing is that its player defined "my enfo increased in size by 60%, so shouldnt my bigger muscles decrease damage intake because its harder to slice threw a 1.6 foot diameter arm then a 1 foot diameter arm?" using that line of logic challenger should add reflects, absorbs or more hp.

[Esproc]

Maybe scaling should have an effect on innate attributes, but then...

Getting bigger would cause a negative defense modifier since you are easier to hit.

And agents would be happy to have ruse become non-social grid armor xD

[Jayice]

I've been looking over this thread for a while now, and find several of McKnuckle's points interesting. Some in a good way, others in a bad one.

First, I'd like to address the idea of tweaking Backstab a bit. For a special attack that implies the element of surprise as the main factor, it misses with frightening frequency. A thought that flew into me was that this special attack was designed as an occasional substantial hit when fighting in mass PvP. It wouldn't make sense to have more than one attack that can cap on a victim and has a 100% land rate. I personally think that Backstab is only needs minor adjustments to the evades check (if any).

McKnuckle also proposed increasing the level of realism to the game, and applying those changes into combat situations. I would have to greatly disagree with this concept because of the following reasons:

1. It would involve changing AO's combat mechanics far too much. On top of that, real-world situations are far too bizarre, unexpected, and often more complicated than one can conceive.
Simulating such conditions in a game is impractical and time-consuming (developer-wise, yes I think of the hard working devs!).

2. The lack of realism doesn't make PvP impossible by any means.

3. I think this one is the most powerful one: it's just a game, not a military combat simulator. If you really must fill the void, AO takes place thousands of years into the future; it is safe to assume the billions of nanites in your body assist in your mental concentration during an aimed shot or sneak attack.


On the contrary to what McKnuckle suggested, I believe AS and SA should actually have their caps raised. PvP is SUPPOSED to involved ingenuity and skill on the player's part as well. It's not fun having professions such as Doctors, Crats, and Engineers AS-kite melee professions to death all while attacking you with their unique profession offensive capabilities. In my opinion, I think AS and SA were designed to keep your adversary on check if they happen to be packing evades under their armor. It's just a way to have your opponent go on the defensive, even if it only lasts a couple of seconds, you can sneak in a heal or activate some of your own defenses.

[Parranoid1]

Zerg is a method, calling it a tactic is giving it too much credit

if you wanna get really technical "Zerg" is a race of bugs from another old game ;P

anyways.

I do agree that "Sneak Attack" should require "Sneaking". Aimed shot well if it takes time and can be interupted during execution just like a real life aimed shot then I am all for a non-capping version.

Fantastic idea, nerf SA while making AS even more overpowered. SA is fine as is, it has a 40 sec recharge which is fair time as its almost 4x as infrequently used as the other 2 main specials (not including dimach here). Also a non-capping AS, are you mad? yeah great idea, im sure people will love seeing agents hitting 13k hits to them all the time. imagine some1 with 16k hp in pvp equip, thats all HP gone bar 3k hp, 1 perk and they are dead. terrible idea. The only way i could see this being "ballanced" would be if it had about a 10-15sec cast time (at the moment its 3sec proposed which is WAY too short if you want it to hit 13k every time), also it would have to be only usable if the player is already attacking the target as to stop people from casting it without the person knowing else it will be unblievely OP for ganking.

Next lets add a reflect piercer too it, i mean really...cmon