Things Everyone Agrees On

[JustinSane4]

On nearly everything that's been discussed in this forum, there are two sides to the discussion. This means that nearly any change is going to upset someone. Upsetting customers is a bad (but occasionally necessary) thing, thus the developers have a hard job. What I'm hoping is that if we can compile a list of things that no one disagrees with, that may be useful to the developers. The following are things that I've seen put forward that I haven't seen someone disagree with. In the quite likely event someone has posted disagreement (or hasn't, but does in fact disagree) please post and I'll remove the item from the OP. This is completely open to trolling, so please only post disagreement if that's actually what you believe (and if you do actually disagree, please post). Disclosure: My main is an MP and my primary alt is an NT. Neither are TL7 yet.

After each item there is general agreement on I'll also post ideas that have been suggested to correct the problem if I'm aware of them. These usually do have people who disagree with them. None of the proposed solutions were originally my suggestion. The items are listed in random order.

Edit: someone disagrees with 1. Leaving in place so the thread makes sense, but not part of the list any longer.

1. Ranged Adventurers are presently too strong. <- Not a consensus opinion (see post 3 in the thread)


2. The Nanomage primary genome perk action Synthesize creates a gap between nanomage NTs and other NTs and should be adjusted.
Proposed solution (I've not seen anyone disagree with this one, but I'm not sure how many have read it): Remove the nano cost reduction, cut the nano damage modifier from 50 to 25, increase the duration from 10 seconds to 20 seconds.

3. Keepers have insufficient offense in PvP (especially below TL7)
Proposed solutions: Not familiar with TL7 suggestions, but it has been proposed that weaker versions of TL7 perk actions be made available at TL5 and I don't recall anyone challenging that.

4. Shades are relatively gimp before TL7
I'm not familiar with proposed solutions here.

5. GTH is too strong (opinions vary wildly on how much too strong)
Proposed solutions: All over the map, but I haven't seen anyone who opposed shortening the duration.

6. Constant Barrage is too strong (opinions vary even more wildly on how much too strong)
Proposed solutions: The only one that I've not seen anyone oppose is to cut the duration of the NR debuff.

[erozc]

You're posting quite strongly about what everyone agrees on. Even if your list made 100% sense, there'd still be disagreement. Besides, this list seems actually to be "the biggest forum whines currently going on" and they could be written with more generalization as:

1) Nerf advys, preferably both offense and defense.wise
2) Don't nerf my breed perks and/or make my breed choice inferior to something else
3) Boost my prof of choice at TL5 because it's uncompetitive at PvP, at least nerf advs
4) Shades are nerfed, period (except trox)
5) Nerf GTH
6) Nerf CB

Does that actually seem like a very constructive list?

[Snackel]

As I have played as a shade for a while, I came to notice that they really do not have a viable deffense.
Well, you would probably say they do, but they don't.
Here's why. You have 3 main ways to deffend your self in BattleStations or in PvP.

1'st: You have evades, in which many people know don't work for crap for regular weapon hits. So, even through that 3k evade setup you have going there, you will still die from a profession that has any decent ammount of regular damage, AKA enforcer/keepers/MA's. Although you have MR to help the situation to perk them, I see that a lot of shades fail in the area of either having to much health and not much AR, or too much AR and little health. This being the fact, by the time your stuns wear off the enforcer, all he has to do is sit back, throw on heals/cacoon and enjoy every 1k+ dmg a hit he does to you, and if you try to run away, he has improved rage, so that makes him faster or as fast as you.

2'nd: You have Heal Perks or AAO and AAD Perks. Yes, these are needed to even consider the thought of attacking another player. But! the silly thing is that you can really only pick between having more AR and DEF or having perks that do some damage and heals you. What I see is that where ever you put your perks into, you will always be lacking in something. I mean do you put your perks into the heal perk(also known as a PvM setup) or do you put it in the AAO/AAD perks(the pvp setup)?
-With the heal perk setup, you will lack around 500 Deffence and offense. Sure, you will have some heals to help out in your survival, but the question is, will you get the perks off in time before you die? Because you CAN be perked by many other professions? This will certainly be leading in your demise of meeting that reclaim once again.
-With the AAO/AAD perk setup, you will lack the necassary heals that you need to survive some hits and maybe perks. You will also loose a lot of damage, and possibly your alpha. I don't even think a shade can kill a good doctor without the heal/damage perks these days. Which leads to shades failing at ganking stuff, I see many people and myself that use the AAO/AAD debuff and they still get hit with regular hits and have to run away before completing an alpha.

3'rd: The 5k absorb sleeves. This is a number 1 must have for a shade, as he/she will not be able to survive when Dance Of Fools runs out. Well, if you get hit by pretty much anyone about 6 times, the absorbs run out and you continue to die. I don't even use this item when vs'ing soldiers as they just cap over the absorb. Maybe this can be used when running away? No no, if you get lucky you will live, but many people will just root graph you and /afk you. Most others have roots and will also /afk you.

Having no real sense of deffense towards some professions makes shades the most killable and killed profession in the game. I mean, if you are 210, the only thing you really can do is get MR and high concealment because you can't touch anyone normally. I know some shades out there like Shimyrage and Airspider don't die as much as others, but they just know how to play and just have more items and better gear than the most average people. Even though those players are very good at what they do, a normal enforcer with a 300 ofab weapon + Challenger will get the shades down to half health before they are killed or run away.

I would seggust that shades get something that can be used in a deffensive setup. I know that FC gave Sneaky Health Drain, but is that really that good? I mean, if you are casting it, that means your not attacking, and when your not attacking, then your not killing the player, and when your not killing a player, he's killing you.

Now I am not saying "FC! GIEF CACOON TO SHADES!" I certainly do not ever want to see that happen, just want to see shades get some unique tools added to their toolset.

[Snackel]

I don't see a reason to 'nerf' advy's as they are a very well rounded class. I feel that most other classes need to be more well rounded such as Adventurers.

I don't think the problem with adv's is that they need nerfing. It is that they need to be balanced to compete with other professions.

Like Funcom should make all professions have defenses against all classes. Make it so that each profession just doesn't counter 1 other profession.

A good example of this is the Nano Tech's vs Soldiers.
(I know traders have debuffs for AMS, but they are just not balanced to any kind of percent, so I don't consider traders even in the big picture).
FC seemed to only give Nano Tech's some love for killing these monster soldiers. As Tripples go through AMS and such. This is the only good method of balance between the two professions.

Now Traders vs Soldiers. HAHA, if you are a soldier in BS and come upon a trader, /afk and log off. The balance here is just a joke. Traders can debuff you, you can't hit them. They can steal your AMS, you can't kill them. They can sit while you miss every hit, and you still can't kill them. You can use MR x2, and you still can't kill them.

So my point in case, Adventurers just have a toolset to compete with every other profession. And every other profession, has 1 serious enemy, and can kill the rest. That is unbalanced.

So, maybe FC should look at traders first, balance the unbalanced.

[laillea]

My point of view :

-Doctor and engi really need to be reworked they are way above the rest of the other profesions when it comes to pvp
-> make pistol perks 100% def check for everyone + nerf the doctor's heal power and that insane 7x spe blockers.

-Trader's debuff is currently one debuff = win, please change GTH & drains

-Advy, NT , MP and Crats are pretty well balanced for me atm.

-Keepers need few more dammage perks or Sneak Attack

-Enfo : lets see after the 1hb nerf, they have a too powerfull alpha atm but it will be nerfed so let's wait and see.

-Shade & MA : when well played they can be very dangerous opponent, they may get better with the heal nerf also. (let's wait and see)

-Agent : need to review the whole profession, they need new or more sl nanos.

-Fixer & Soldiers : will need more perks once AS/FA is nerfed.



++ Review all nemesis nano.

[Moonleg]

Hi.

220 ranged advy with full alpha symbs here.

I ... tanked Right Hand today. Sure, he had crat and doc debuffs, but still. I tanked him while enfo handled DX.

A while back our doc LDed halfway through Left Hand. I handled healing for the rest of the battle.

I often find inf mish teams with no crat, these days, so I take care of mezzing the adds before people rush in and get slaughtered.

Even when slacking and not bothering much with my perk attacks, I reliably hit top 3 DD in Pande etc.

Needless to say, I enjoy advies. And yeah, we are a bit overpowered - but you have to realize a lot of it has to do with the player, not the character.

First of all, and probably most importantly: I refuse to admit defeat even in the face of terrible odds. Several times I and a friend have been the only two people left standing after a wipe in Pande, and why? Because we FIGHT, and we refuse to fall without taking at least half the mobs with us. Advy and keeper is a DEADLY combo.

Second, my survival perks fit together like a hand in a glove. Limber+DoF, wait, Bio Cocoon, wait, about seven seconds of being open before you get Limber+DoF again, after that there's Bio Regrowth if things are going south ... You get the idea. This is the main overpowered problem, so I'll get back to this soon.

Third, all on its own we have JEPP. I can deal out around 12k damage every 11 seconds, not counting Burst and Fling Shot on Peh'Wer. This alone is great aggro management on single mobs such as bosses. On damage aggro alone, only shades can take a mob off me if I'm trying to keep it. Combine this with the heal aggro we get with Beauty of Life, and advy actually has some decent crowd control - but again, only for single enemies.

Fourth, we have a LOT of choice. My alpha symbs, for instance, are a nice mix of Artillery, Infantry and Support symbs. However, choices have consequences even for advies, and we have to primarily choose between AR and nano delta. I've tried running around with gimped nano delta, and it is NO FUN.

Now, to address the main OP issue: Evades and absorbs at the same time.

They ARE overpowered. I'm not a PVPer, and yet I've managed to pop Limber, DoF, and Cocoon while running towards A, and capping it while two APTs, a soldier, and one more I forget were all trying to stop me. I was only just starting to take damage when I capped it, so because I'd turned on BR -while capping-, I had time to stop and laugh at them.

We won that round, btw.

So two things. First of all, evades and absorbs should not be able to run together. Period. That's 30 seconds of complete and total immortality, with none of the drawbacks such a feat has on other professions (AMS nerfing nano etc.)

Secondly, they should share a cooldown in some way, for instance no cooning until 20 seconds after DoF/Limber ends and vice versa.

These are, of course, just my insane ramblings. Now I'm off to accidentally an entire Pande.

[Notcrattey]

I know that FC gave Sneaky Health Drain, but is that really that good? I mean, if you are casting it, that means your not attacking, and when your not attacking

Well it's insta cast with viral compiler and a little IP. The problem with SHD is that it needs to LAND, you'll NEVER get it to land on the people you actually need it to land on (except soldiers). Well maybe after the 5th or 6th try you will

But I'm not going to complain about SHD, I think it's fine atm.

[Gwenhwyfer]

Moonleg, you're the first person playing a tl7 adventurer who openly admits adventurers are overpowered I love you already! I suggest Funcom nerfs everyone else and leaves untouched.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

You're posting quite strongly about what everyone agrees on. Even if your list made 100% sense, there'd still be disagreement. Besides, this list seems actually to be "the biggest forum whines currently going on" and they could be written with more generalization as:

1) Nerf advys, preferably both offense and defense.wise
2) Don't nerf my breed perks and/or make my breed choice inferior to something else
3) Boost my prof of choice at TL5 because it's uncompetitive at PvP, at least nerf advs
4) Shades are nerfed, period (except trox)
5) Nerf GTH
6) Nerf CB

Does that actually seem like a very constructive list?

1. Bump for OP
2. WTF is this swipe at me for?

@ #3. Boosting every prof except agent, enf, doc, and advy , OR, nerf advy+agent is all I've been asking for.

In particular, I've noted that there is DISTINCT imbalance issues between comparatively setup:
keepers and advies,
keepers and enforcers,
keepers and soldiers,
keepers and doctors,
keeper and agents.

I've not claimed anything other than what I've made specific note of. I've also noticed that SHADES are of particular disadvantage at this TL.

I agree with the OP whole heartedly.

[erozc]

Moonleg, you're the first person playing a tl7 adventurer who openly admits adventurers are overpowered

You're quite wrong.

1. Bump for OP
2. WTF is this swipe at me for?

I agree with the OP whole heartedly.

It's not just you. It's a lot of people who now will have a toon that will have some disadvantage against another breed. I don't think complaining about that is very constructive. I also don't agree that everyone agrees with the OP. Actually you didn't either since I'd formed 1. quite differently than he had.

What everyone seems to agree on though is that it's quite hard to think of good solutions to issues, particularly the kinds that don't contain hateful nerf statements based on personal agendas, when the big picture of the changes isn't visible yet. Right?

[lostlife]

mcknuckle, i agree that keepers need more offensive power, but only the most powerful offensive steamrollers should be able to kill doctors (keepers arent offensive powerhouses so shouldnt have more than a 40% chance of killing those, presuming equipment quality is the same), and advies, you need a freaking gm to take those guys... advies have to many defensive options (heals, evades, coon) somethign needs to be done, heals are understandable because most profs have some form of healing (sime more than others and better than others) coon can be eaten reather quick, unless you add evades to the equation, decreasing advies access to the acro line to 3 would solve this problem, and would make it so advies could get boosts in future patches with out every one instantly jumping on them for being even more over powered. truth be told ive never played a advy, so if the grass really isnt greener on the otherside, correct me.

healing wise
advy doc and ma have nanos that dirrectly heal and perk(s)
fixer, enforcer, and keeper have hots
agent can fp, although im am uneducated on agent pvp if i recall many fp doc
mps have heal pets
that leaves crat engi (bio rejuvenation and other heals in that line, not much before that though) shade (tr and a few ai perks, only issues with when they dont land, making it a serious issue in pvp), soldier (i would say one more hit healing, but with tms that is negated, and collosal health perks) and traders (dont know if they use health drains)

evade wise
advy fix shade and ma have high evades threw perks, perk actions, nanos, and a few key items (slippers of screaming, SWS)
crats have crat shuffle CiB good while it lasts
agent enfo keeper have good static evades
the left overs are doc (as it should be) engineer/mp (comes equiped with own tank, that is usually ignored by pvpers) nt/sold (have buff, but still sub par) and trader (drains compensate for their lack thereof)

coon
enfo/keepers (needed to out survive) engi (understandable that they have it to counter mp healpet/sheild and crats evade perk actions) and advy (once again, it wouldnt be over powered if evade perk actions couldnt be used)

other defenses
sold TMS/AMS (do to lack of healing/coon/evades, downtime, nts traders and engies i would consider it balanced)
trader drains (balances with lack of evades)

i apologise if any information is incorrect or if anything was left unaccounted

also, sorry for the run on sentances

[keitelo]

I don't see a reason to 'nerf' advy's as they are a very well rounded class. I feel that most other classes need to be more well rounded such as Adventurers.

Well it's a funny and interesting view you have there.

I would say that when a prof in a pvp game can survive forever even agaisnt 4 or 5 bashing him you can say that it's just a 100% unbalanced situation.

I exagerate a bit but not much.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Well it's a funny and interesting view you have there.

I would say that when a prof in a pvp game can survive forever even agaisnt 4 or 5 bashing him you can say that it's just a 100% unbalanced situation.

I exagerate a bit but not much.

I dont think thats an exaggeration.

At Tl5 I've seen some well twinked advies tanking more than 4 people for an undetermined length of time a LOT longer than 40 seconds, 80 seconds, through coon, and keep going. They can pick off several people if they aren't healing each other.

[agentwolve]

well maybe a complete advy vs 4-5 gimps in a medsuit who dont have nukes/ aimed shot / SA / dimach or arnt atrox

when talking about balance your meant to compare equal equipment / skill

[McKnuckleSamwich]

well maybe a complete advy vs 4-5 gimps in a medsuit who dont have nukes/ aimed shot / SA / dimach or arnt atrox

when talking about balance your meant to compare equal equipment / skill

Well I never defined that.

Ok, I'll redefine what I said:

I've seen a twinked advy survive 2-3 other twinks hacking away on him long enough to kill them all.

I've seen OSB'd advies survive entire rounds without even 1 of SEVERAL twinks being remotely close to killing them.

I've seen non OSB'd advies kill me though I was buffed with rrfe/HOt and GSF, I'm twinked, and that advy was too, (that fight took about 5 minutes though, and it was a very good one, EXCEPT that there was 0% chance for me to win, which actually makes in a bad fight. SA was the deciding factor.)

I've seen 1 advy OSB'd take on two twinks working in COORDINATION, and STILL survive them both, who then comes back, later and pwns both separately, being able to outlast, and escape, and come back on his own terms (IE. AMS is down), or whatever, and kill on his terms.

The advy problem is not ONLY superiour defence. It's that the ABILITY to choose fights through escape tactics is also there.

Couple superior defence AND escape tactics, and theres no way you can win. This is why advies are so stupidly OP'd.

If you ask me, I'd say let them keep their escape tactics and big defence, but just add tags on every weapon with SA or AS that is non-adventurer only.

Lowish AR and no special attacks is reasonable in conjunction with massive bonuses to escape tactics and unstoppable defences.

[Righteous]

My point of view :



-Keepers need few more dammage perks or Sneak Attack
++Review all nemesis nano.

Keepers don't need/want sneak attack.

Yes review nemesis nanos, especially Defeat Righteousness.

[Righteous]

healing wise
fixer, enforcer, and keeper have hots

HAHAHA, Keepers have HoTs? What? 1053 hp every 20 seconds?? HA!

[McKnuckleSamwich]

HAHAHA, Keepers have HoTs? What? 1053 hp every 20 seconds?? HA!

ya I was trying to understand that too.

does 20 seconds count as a tick? I thought that that heal was some random dude running by and spammed a level 100 doc heal on me or something.

bump for OP and his original list.

[lostlife]

im defining hot loosly :P
also, theres blessing heals+devotialal armor+auras (healing aad+aao, root,snare resistance) coon, bio rej... keepers have alot of defensive tools

and as a side not, the highest keeper heal aura (1k every 20 secs) is as good as the highest non % fixer long term hot (500 every 5 secs)

[Xenotric]

I would state the fact that AoR can go down to 4 seconds (faster then fixer short hot) but people still complain its no good. (while some that say that still state that fixer short hot is effective...)