Perk Actions Early on with up-scaling effects

[sultryvoltron]

Oh cmon this is taking things a bit far. We call this a straw man. I expect better of you, judging by your Agent posts. Seriously.

This suggestion relies on the fact that every single perk action can be scaled appropriately at every single level to produce balance across all Title Levels. I contend that it can't, and that the current system with slight modifications will be better.


@ Aethyr: The burden of proof lies with the suggested change to the status quo, or current perk system. I don't have to provide any evidence to show that this idea is bad. It is up to you to show me why this suggestion would fix anything, because I honestly believe it's not a good suggestion to make % based perks. So far all you've done is respond with "I disagree with you" and "you didn't provide any evidence". It's not my job.


You like this suggestion so much, defend it. Tell me what perk changes you would do to fix TL2, 3, 4, and 5 PvP. How will they make it better? Why won't they make it worse? Why should perks scale based on % of how many perks you spend in the line? Why is the current scaling not enough? What about perks that don't scale? How do you handle bonus effects of perks with this system? I certainly think giving perk stuns and init debuffs to low level characters is a bad idea. DEFEND YOUR IDEA. You haven't come back with a single relevant reply other than typical trolling like this is a Neutral Tokenboard thread.

[Hacre]

This suggestion relies on the fact that every single perk action can be scaled appropriately at every single level to produce balance across all Title Levels. I contend that it can't, and that the current system with slight modifications will be better.

Your suggestion, taken literally, implied that Keepers should have access to Concussive Shot at a low level whenever they deem fit.

If that's not the case and everyone is still locked to their profession's perks, then yes, I wholeheartedly agree that it can be balanced across the board, as per another post I made. SnD could hit, at TL1, for 100-200 points per tick. Pain Lance could hit for 300-500. Just to take those perks as an example. Conc Shot could hit for much lower and not gain the stun effect until a later level, or only have the stun last for 1s.

Believing that they couldn't be scaled as a toon levels up displays pretty two dimensional and closed minded thinking. There are already perks that are enabled at a low level and scale the higher level a toon is/the more perks a toon has in a line/ the more skill a toon has in a certain skill.

I can appreciate you baulking at the idea, but refusing to change your mind when that baulk is addressed indicates very closed minded thinking.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

I think sultry can disagree, and I feel his points are duly noted.

The burden of proof lies with the suggested changes.

/agree.

Thats what I was trying to do. And, I happen to think that this proof will lie most emphatically with shades and keepers, who, above and beyond nearly every other prof do not have a sufficient perk toolset at low levels.

IF it works for shades and keepers, and they don't become OP'd with respect to other profs, then there might not be any other changes needed, but, if it throws the balance out a bit, then the other profs should have lowbie scaled perks as well.

I don't see how it could throw the balance off though, shades can't perk anyone anyways, so their damage won't multiply that much, and keepers (90% of them) have greatly subpar defences, unless they are using the nab-coon, which gives the a decent defence for 20 seconds, after which they splat to whoever happens to have Q'd them.

@Sultry: if the proposed is looked at in light of the lack of use of nano in combat for shades and keepers, the reliance on perks becomes irrefutable. Therefore, on those grounds, the proof of potential change that is essential lies in the previously mentioned disparity. We cannot prove that it will work. We can only prove that what is currently in place does not.

[sultryvoltron]

If that's not the case and everyone is still locked to their profession's perks, then yes, I wholeheartedly agree that it can be balanced across the board, as per another post I made. SnD could hit, at TL1, for 100-200 points per tick. Pain Lance could hit for 300-500. Just to take those perks as an example. Conc Shot could hit for much lower and not gain the stun effect until a later level, or only have the stun last for 1s.

Believing that they couldn't be scaled as a toon levels up displays pretty two dimensional and closed minded thinking. There are already perks that are enabled at a low level and scale the higher level a toon is/the more perks a toon has in a line/ the more skill a toon has in a certain skill.

The only way this can be balanced is by scaling every perk off of the amount of perks in the line.

For example: (Here's something to think about for you Aethyr) AAO/AAD will not be taken into account.

Take an Enforcer. At level 74 this Enforcer can IP 383 of any basic weapon skill. The Enforcer proceeds to buff his weapon skill by 65+20. The Enforcer is wearing AI Armor, so we'll just add 8*7 and forget about better pieces to keep basic numbers. The Enforcer is also wearing QL 200 implants for his weapon skills, so +210 more weapon skill. Research and Perks yields us an extra 79 weapon skill.

We've just reached 813 weapon skill. Under the proposed system, this 813 weapon skill serves to increase the damage to perks the Enforcer would normally have, as well as give extra damage to perks that are unlocked that the Enforcer didn't have (Pain Lance? Why not. Doesn't matter.).


This Enforcer is fighting an MA. At level 74 this MA can IP 383 evades. The MA buffs his own evades by 85. There is no general buff. The MA now has to make a choice. Do I triple implant dodge or evade? I cannot triple implant both. To make this even, let's triple imp Evade, so +210 evade. Now, add on full pred (just want basic numbers, not extreme evade setups) for 10*7. Perks and research increase evade by +55.

We are now at 803 evade. We have 10 evade less than the Enforcer has AR. We hit limber and we're at 1003 evade. Some percentage of our 803 evades is kicked into the benefits of Limber. AAD isn't being counted, but it doesn't do much against regular hits from my experience. Let's pretend the MA has a baby DoF as well for another 200 evades, using whatever % based on the given evades.


Let's take that scenario as is. The MA is at 1003 evades, the Enforcer at 813 weapon skill. The Enforcer will miss his perks since there is no downtime on those evades. If we count in AAO this will change, but we won't. Theoretically, the MA should be able to survive this Enf forever since they shouldn't get hit. Here's where reality sets in. The Enf has enough AR and enough high damage weapons/specials to regular hit and special the MA to death. All of these fancy perk system changes haven't changed anything. The MA still will have a hell of a time killing the Enf, especially after AS nerf, and the MA's defense is not enough to withstand the Enf powerhouse. We don't even need the Enf's perks, but he sure can use them against low evaders.


And all of this doesn't even take into account the fact that the MA will have +40 AAD, CIB on a short duration, long timer, and the Enf can have 28+27+(someone help me out here)130 to 140 more AAO. This MA is dead and the Enf didn't even need the extra perks to kill him, while the MA used his extra perks to remove his evade gap. It becomes even more lopsided if the MA chose to triple-imp dodge instead of evade.


I used MAs to give the highest benefit of evades possible. I easily could have chosen something with much lower evades, and practically no perk defenses (like an Engi, Crat, or a Soldier), to fight a Trader, where triple implanting Duck involves losing the shiny dodge cluster, and losing max hp from the waist, thus giving decreased gains to the % based perks.


There are low level PvP problems that should be addressed before this can be considered. Changes to perks are on the low end of the list in terms of what needs fixed.

[Hacre]

All your last post served to say, Sultry, is that the extra perks wouldn't be overpowering and the Enfo would win anyway.

So please, why shouldn't this suggestion, if balanced properly, be implemented?

You even went so far as to say that the Enforcer (or Keeper) wouldn't be perking the MA.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

I fail to see the point in how this backs up your argument.

I think this provides more backing for aethyrs.

oh, and nerf lowbie enforcers.

[sultryvoltron]

All your last post served to say, Sultry, is that the extra perks wouldn't be overpowering and the Enfo would win anyway.

So please, why shouldn't this suggestion, if balanced properly, be implemented?

You even went so far as to say that the Enforcer (or Keeper) wouldn't be perking the MA.

Think about it for a non-MA then. The enf will sure be perking that Engi, Soldier, Doctor, etc.

This suggestion can't be balanced around %increases based upon weapon skill. You have on one hand professions with extremely solid weapon skill armor, weapon buffs, research, etc. On the other hand, you get professions who can't get their weapon, nanoskill, or evades that high by themselves. What difference is it really going to make if that Engineer gets a %boost to his pistol perks based on his sucky pistol skill that can't be self-buffed? What difference does it make to give more % healing to that doctor on his perks based upon his BM when he still won't be able to outheal damage from Enfs, and is still horribly weak to Drains and NR perked toons? Oh that's right, you just change the %

If one profession can inherently buff certain skills higher than other professions, and that certain skill contributes greatly to the effectiveness of %based perks, then the system will get so convoluted with different %s that we should just leave it as is, and increase stat values on different profession's perks.

[Hacre]

Think about it for a non-MA then. The enf will sure be perking that Engi, Soldier, Doctor, etc.

This suggestion can't be balanced around %increases based upon weapon skill. You have on one hand professions with extremely solid weapon skill armor, weapon buffs, research, etc. On the other hand, you get professions who can't get their weapon, nanoskill, or evades that high by themselves. What difference is it really going to make if that Engineer gets a %boost to his pistol perks based on his sucky pistol skill that can't be self-buffed? What difference does it make to give more % healing to that doctor on his perks based upon his BM when he still won't be able to outheal damage from Enfs, and is still horribly weak to Drains and NR perked toons? Oh that's right, you just change the %

If one profession can inherently buff certain skills higher than other professions, and that certain skill contributes greatly to the effectiveness of %based perks, then the system will get so convoluted with different %s that we should just leave it as is, and increase stat values on different profession's perks.

You're misunderstanding.

No one said that by having SnD, you'd get the 2he buffs you'd get from normally perling Reaver to that point. That's where perking out the line comes in.

Otherwise you'd have people popping a perk into Reaver to get SnD then suddenly getting 150 2he or whatever the magic number is at that level. Which isn't what's being proposed here.

Anything else I can nullify before you just sit back and say "oh ok yeah this isn't a bad idea"?

[sultryvoltron]

You're misunderstanding.

No one said that by having SnD, you'd get the 2he buffs you'd get from normally perling Reaver to that point. That's where perking out the line comes in.

Otherwise you'd have people popping a perk into Reaver to get SnD then suddenly getting 150 2he or whatever the magic number is at that level. Which isn't what's being proposed here.

Anything else I can nullify before you just sit back and say "oh ok yeah this isn't a bad idea"?

That's not the point I was making. I meant, Enforcers can get more weaponskill that others. Traders can get more weaponskill even than that. Giving them any sort of % based increase based on that will screw professions who can't get as much weaponskill. The solution would be to just increase their % increases, and decrease Enf/Trader % increases, but it still solves nothing more than attempt to balance out unbalanced perks, leaving the rest of the lowbie PvP system broken as hell. This doesn't even attest to the fact that some professions simply get better perk actions than others, which still leaves it a cookie-cutter system.

[Hacre]

That's not the point I was making. I meant, Enforcers can get more weaponskill that others. Traders can get more weaponskill even than that. Giving them any sort of % based increase based on that will screw professions who can't get as much weaponskill. The solution would be to just increase their % increases, and decrease Enf/Trader % increases, but it still solves nothing more than attempt to balance out unbalanced perks, leaving the rest of the lowbie PvP system broken as hell. This doesn't even attest to the fact that some professions simply get better perk actions than others, which still leaves it a cookie-cutter system.

I see what you're trying to say. I really do. But I also feel that balance attempts shouldn't be happening until TL5 and even that is being generous. It makes no sense for an MMORPG developer to try and develop the game in a way that discourages leveling on to end game.

I had a level 41 Trader (had because it got stripped when I quit playing). I don't see a problem with the Enfos I faced, having a nerfed down lowbie version of Pain Lance and Slice n Dice. It might have even balanced them somewhat vs me.

[Aethyrguard]

All your last post served to say, Sultry, is that the extra perks wouldn't be overpowering and the Enfo would win anyway.

So please, why shouldn't this suggestion, if balanced properly, be implemented?

You even went so far as to say that the Enforcer (or Keeper) wouldn't be perking the MA.

I fail to see the point in how this backs up your argument.

I think this provides more backing for aethyrs.

oh, and nerf lowbie enforcers.

That is why I asked him to prove his side. In the attempt to prove it he instead showed that the idea works and in theory should be a perfectly balanced system provided the rest of the changes balance things as they should. It is as I said earlier, not disprovable by conventional thinking and that was the goal..

[sultryvoltron]

I see what you're trying to say. I really do. But I also feel that balance attempts shouldn't be happening until TL5 and even that is being generous. It makes no sense for an MMORPG developer to try and develop the game in a way that discourages leveling on to end game.

I had a level 41 Trader (had because it got stripped when I quit playing). I don't see a problem with the Enfos I faced, having a nerfed down lowbie version of Pain Lance and Slice n Dice. It might have even balanced them somewhat vs me.

Then why don't we balance endgame perks and leave it at that? Endgame perks don't need some drastic scaling changes. In fact, at Endgame you have access to any perk that you want and opening them up earlier doesn't change anything either. Thus, the entire suggestion is again a moot point. A nice addition? Maybe. A suggestion that will fix balance? No.


The ONLY exception I think is legitimate is Keepers and Shades. The earlier you open up their offense and defense perks the better. You might actually see them be playable at TL5 PvP.

[Hacre]

Then why don't we balance endgame perks and leave it at that? Endgame perks don't need some drastic scaling changes. In fact, at Endgame you have access to any perk that you want and opening them up earlier doesn't change anything either. Thus, the entire suggestion is again a moot point. A nice addition? Maybe. A suggestion that will fix balance? No.


The ONLY exception I think is legitimate is Keepers and Shades. The earlier you open up their offense and defense perks the better. You might actually see them be playable at TL5 PvP.

Because, again, what works in an ideal world doesn't always work in an every day scenario.

Funcom also encouraged twinking, as silly as it was, at each Title Level, because there's towers at those title levels.

So my point and my/the suggestion about perks still stands.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Enforcers can get more weaponskill that others. Traders can get more weaponskill even than that. Giving them any sort of % based increase based on that will screw professions who can't get as much weaponskill.

Highly relevant point.

perk dmg based off wep skill for these two profs would seriously screw up the already screwed up balance at TL2-4.

But, it still is ok for shade/keeper.

[Aethyrguard]

Actually perk damage wouldn't screw up any balance if modified by weapon damage because the amount it modified itself could be handled per class as well. Such as, when an enforcer perks S&D he gets 1 point of damage added to his S&D per 100 points of 2hE, where as Keeper could get the same thing but instead get 2 points per 100, or what ever. In this way, the perklines themselves could be better balanced between professions that share them out of a group line.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Actually perk damage wouldn't screw up any balance if modified by weapon damage because the amount it modified itself could be handled per class as well. Such as, when an enforcer perks S&D he gets 1 point of damage added to his S&D per 100 points of 2hE, where as Keeper could get the same thing but instead get 2 points per 100, or what ever. In this way, the perklines themselves could be better balanced between professions that share them out of a group line.

I've suggested this already as well, in the prof delineation thread.

I think it's absolutely necessary for Profession balancing between shared perks.

It's absolutely ridiculous to think that reaper line is balanced, when out of the two profs who have access to it, the only one who does is the one who is forced to.

No enf in his right mind at level 150-174 ever, EVER touches reaper, unless they are total newbs and don't know about colossal health, every PVP enf uses 1he and 1hb (if they can get a blodbat) exclusively.

Keepers use it because they hurt for AR, dont' have challenger, and have zero decent DD perks.