Perk Actions Early on with up-scaling effects

[Aethyrguard]

After heavily digging through the current documentation as well as reading most of the topics in this forum I have come to believe that the proper way to handle perk actions is to put all of the current perk actions to the first 1-5 (depending on number of actions) perk points spent.

Then upscale the effects of the perks usefulness with each point above it and at each of the first few levels unlock a new action. The very last perk point in each line should unlock a "new" special that we've not seen before which starts at max value or acts as a synergistic bonus/multiplier for the rest of the perks unlocked by that chain or others.

Anyone else agree that this would help the lower Title levels to have more complete toolsets with progressing unlocks for advancement balance-able effects over time and still leave something special for those who invest the maximum number of points in a line?

EDIT:

Great idea.

But, imo, the perk damage should scale up with main weapon skill or main weapon skill+AAO. since, ultimately, twinks want to see a bit more damage with perks than the average joe.

But, in general, this really is what we need to see happening, otherwise too many profs get hosed, while cought*acrobat* @ level 140 makes things waaay too tough for any prof without it

/agree. all perk actions in first 5 or so perks, and defensive perks scale with # of perks/BD/evades/ max HP/ whatever, and offensive perks scale with # of perks/weap skill/weap skill+AAO.

I support weap skill + AAO, cuz it would be nice to see dmg increase with a crat in team. would be pretty uber.

Could be done if perks scaled with the number of perks in the line and the weapon skill being used.

so fore only a couple perks in the line, damage would scale between a skill of 1 and 1000. but for anything above a 1000, there would be no increase in dd.

as more perks are invested into the line, the 2nd then 3rd tier of scaling would open up.

That was in reference to making weapon/associated skill IP spent modify some part of the perks performance. Having seen how both healing and damage perks perform over time I can only support this suggestion. I completely agree with having each point spent in the line add a multiplier factor to the perk actions and or unlocking a percentage of the associated skill bonus. I think it could work like this:

Let's use Reaver as an example since it is a 10 point line and has several actions spread through out it and relative to the already referenced profession of Keeper:

Melee Modifier:
2h Edged 180 (at 10)

Actions:

• Cleave - 1st perk
  
  • The effect of this special is a direct damage.
• Transfix -4th perk
  
  • Special requires Cleave to already run.
• Pain Lance -7th perk
  
  • The effect of this special is a direct damage and a damage over time.
• Slice and Dice -9th perk
  
  • The effect of this special is a direct damage.

Now, each point over 4 can enhance the first 4 actions until the final point is spent giving some new ability that they MIGHT have got a crazy notion to put in a separate line and could save themselves the trouble in many cases by doing this. One type of enhancement could be an Associated Skill Cap.

Instead it should look like:

Melee Modifier:
2h Edged 180 (at 10)

Actions:

• Cleave - 1st perk
  
  • The effect of this special is a direct damage. By unlocking this perk you have gained a 10% bonus of your 2hE skill as a damage modifier.
• Transfix -2nd perk
  
  • Special requires Cleave to already run. By unlocking this perk you have gained a 20% bonus of your 2hE skill as a damage modifier.
• Pain Lance -3rd perk
  
  • The effect of this special is a direct damage and a damage over time. By unlocking this perk you have gained a 30% bonus of your 2hE skill as a damage modifier.
• Slice and Dice -4th perk
  
  • The effect of this special is a direct damage. By unlocking this perk you have gained a 40% bonus of your 2hE skill as a damage modifier.
• 5th Perk
  
  • By unlocking this perk you have gained a 50% bonus of your 2hE skill as a damage modifier.
• 6th Perk
  
  • By unlocking this perk you have gained a 60% bonus of your 2hE skill as a damage modifier.
• 7th Perk
  
  • By unlocking this perk you have gained a 70% bonus of your 2hE skill as a damage modifier.
• 8th Perk
  
  • By unlocking this perk you have gained a 80% bonus of your 2hE skill as a damage modifier.
• 9th Perk
  
  • By unlocking this perk you have gained a 90% bonus of your 2hE skill as a damage modifier.
• New Unseen/heard of perk action -10th
  
  • The effect of this special is the future wet dream of Keepers and toy of the Dev's. By unlocking this perk you have gained a 100% bonus of your 2hE skill as a damage modifier.

As an example for Healing let's take Doctors Perk Nano Surgeon:

Nano and Aiding
Biological metamorphosis 42 (at 6)
Matter metamorphosis 42
Treatment 60
First aid 45

Actions:

• Enhanced Heal - 1st perk
  
  • The effect of this Special is a self heal.
• Team Heal -4th perk
  
  • The effect of this Special is a team heal.
• Malicious Prohibition -5th perk
  
  • The effect of this Special is a heal multiplier debuff.
• Treatment Transfer -6th perk
  
  • The effect of this Special is a treatment buff, will debuff self.

Instead it should look like:

Nano and Aiding
Biological metamorphosis 42 (at 6)
Matter metamorphosis 42
Treatment 60
First aid 45

Actions:

• Enhanced Heal - 1st perk
  
  • The effect of this Special is a self heal. By unlocking this perk you have gained a 16% Healing bonus from 52% BM + 48% MM skills as a healing modifier.
• Team Heal -2nd perk
  
  • The effect of this Special is a team heal. By unlocking this perk you have gained a 32% (16%x2) Healing bonus from 52% BM + 48% MM skills as a healing modifier.
• Malicious Prohibition -3rd perk
  
  • The effect of this Special is a heal multiplier debuff. By unlocking this perk you have gained a 48% (16%x3) Healing bonus from 50% BM + 50%PM skills as a healing & debuff modifiers.
• Treatment Transfer -4th perk
  
  • The effect of this Special is a treatment buff, will debuff self. By unlocking this perk you have gained a 64% (16%x4) Healing bonus from 52% BM + 48% MM skills as a healing & debuff modifiers.
• 5th Perk
  
  • By unlocking this perk you have gained a 80% (16%x5) Healing bonus from 52% BM + 48% MM skills as a healing modifier.
• New Unseen/heard of perk action -6th Perk
  
  • By unlocking this perk you have gained a 100% (16%x6) Healing bonus from 52% BM + 48% MM skills as a healing modifier.

This would really help long in to the future as scaling becomes an issue again at some point as new items and nanos are added to the game. The theory is going on a general principal of extremes; Those who want to be Jack of all trades and those who want to be master of one. With every action opened up so early, a player would be able to chose going with spending few points in lots of lines to get the actions but at subpar funtionality each, compared to someone who maxed only a few lines. Firstly, at TL7 where maxing a line is possible it would be a choice relating to the stack of variables of do you want that last perk action and max bonus or not? If you do then you put all points in, if you don't you don't. The biggest thing is having the choice between a greater number of choices for actions or fewer but more effective actions. This will be especially true at lower levels where some new options will open up across the board helping out currently suffering professions with at least a "mini" form of their toolset in full after about lvl 100.

Also please note I did not say what the modifier represented other than it is a variable in the equation. 100% of 2hE could mean literal +1dmg/point or per 10 points or per 100 points, that is not even the subject of this debate. Just wanted to clarify that ahead of time so that people realize I am leaving that part still open to interpretation on an individual perk by perk basis, I am merely pointing out two examples of how they could be taken and applied without defining what that bonus exactly represents.

For any perks which currently do not have a skill attached to it will be based on the most logical stats such as if all healing nanos in the game run off BM/MM then all healing perks will to if there are fluxes like some healing nanos use other stats then make the profession perks work on profession core stats, make group based on group and general on generally accessible. Another example dealing with some perks not requiring a particular weapon but is a damage / weapon perk. With AR as the modifier it would work for any weapon type.

Everything can be linked to something in some way if you but only stop and think about it. You can link some things to base stats, body stats, weapon stats, speed, even tradeskilling. One of the wonderful side effects of this is that it will also provide a little bit of breed balancing in the process. Such as...

-Atrox Keepers getting more 2hE would get better dmg bonuses
-Solitus would be rounded in bonuses no weak spot no real strength
-Opi would get bonuses from AGI trickle to the HM evades buff/debuff if it checked the right skill
-Nanomage would get the best Heals from their Nanoskills and associated base stat trickles.

In terms of the doctor if you notice the debuff action in that line in my outline is set to follow the nano debuff lines unlike the others which are heals. If every breed was taken in to consideration and something their stat spending excels in compared to the others and modify the related stats to give at least 1 boon to each for choosing that combination of breed and perks.

[Saetos]

Sounds good to me, as long as it isn't like AI perks where you get 300 point damage perks at level 15 and have to scale sloooowly from there

[McKnuckleSamwich]

After heavily digging through the current documentation as well as reading most of the topics in this forum I have come to believe that the proper way to handle perk actions is to put all of the current perk actions to the first 1-5 (depending on number of actions) perk points spent.

Then upscale the effects of the perks usefulness with each point above it and at each of the first few levels unlock a new action. The very last perk point in each line should unlock a "new" special that we've not seen before which starts at max value or acts as a synergistic bonus/multiplier for the rest of the perks unlocked by that chain or others.

Anyone else agree that this would help the lower Title levels to have more complete toolsets with progressing unlocks for advancement balance-able effects over time and still leave something special for those who invest the maximum number of points in a line?

Great idea.

But, imo, the perk damage should scale up with main weapon skill or main weapon skill+AAO. since, ultimately, twinks want to see a bit more damage with perks than the average joe.

But, in general, this really is what we need to see happening, otherwise too many profs get hosed, while cought*acrobat* @ level 140 makes things waaay too tough for any prof without it

/agree. all perk actions in first 5 or so perks, and defensive perks scale with # of perks/BD/evades/ max HP/ whatever, and offensive perks scale with # of perks/weap skill/weap skill+AAO.

I support weap skill + AAO, cuz it would be nice to see dmg increase with a crat in team. would be pretty uber.

[Moonbolt]

But, imo, the perk damage should scale up with main weapon skill or main weapon skill+AAO. since, ultimately, twinks want to see a bit more damage with perks than the average joe.

/agree. all perk actions in first 5 or so perks, and defensive perks scale with # of perks/BD/evades/ max HP/ whatever, and offensive perks scale with # of perks/weap skill/weap skill+AAO.

I support weap skill + AAO, cuz it would be nice to see dmg increase with a crat in team. would be pretty uber.

this defenatly wouldnt work together since people would max out their AR and only train the first couple of perks in every line and get massive dmg with the perks at the same time as they would get insane amounts of perk attack actions.

[mr_road]

this defenatly wouldnt work together since people would max out their AR and only train the first couple of perks in every line and get massive dmg with the perks at the same time as they would get insane amounts of perk attack actions.

could be done if perks scaled with the number of perks in the line and the weapon skill being used.

so fore only a couple perks in the line, damage would scale between a skill of 1 and 1000. but for anything above a 1000, there would be no increase in dd.

as more perks are invested into the line, the 2nd then 3rd tier of scaling would open up.

[sultryvoltron]

I don't like this idea. I understand the concepts behind it, and I think it would help with some professions, but I still just don't like it.

Imagine unlocking all your specials at around level 150. Now, playing your toon from 150-200 becomes exactly the same all the time except you do more damage, or you evade slightly better, or you heal slightly better. No thank you.

[Aethyrguard]

I don't like this idea. I understand the concepts behind it, and I think it would help with some professions, but I still just don't like it.

Imagine unlocking all your specials at around level 150. Now, playing your toon from 150-200 becomes exactly the same all the time except you do more damage, or you evade slightly better, or you heal slightly better. No thank you.

You didn't read the post; You only read the title; Admit it. I clearly stated that there would be a final perk action for the last point spent which is not an action currently a part of any of the existing perk lines. Currently several professions are crippled before 201-217 because of this.

[Marinegent]

You didn't read the post; You only read the title; Admit it. I clearly stated that there would be a final perk action for the last point spent which is not an action currently a part of any of the existing perk lines. Currently several professions are crippled before 201-217 because of this.

As it should be in most cases.

No 201-217 should be hoping to compare to a 220 in any respect.

[Aethyrguard]

As it should be in most cases.

No 201-217 should be hoping to compare to a 220 in any respect.

No. You really aren't getting it. Several professions are utter garbage before TL7 because the majority of the "core perk actions" which defines a profession at TL7 doesn't exist before hand while other professions have nearly complete toolsets at very early levels with little change as they progress. I am merely suggesting that all of what we consider the perk actions of today (post changes to balance) be moved to the first actions one after another until all but the final one are unlocked. The final one is a new action currently not a part of the perk lines which should NOT be core and defining for a profession. Take Keepers as a single example, shades as another and I know more as well but mainly these two regarding perks (for crats/mps/etc a few nanos which are locked till end game could use lower level versions as well in many cases where the ability can help to balance a title level of pvp which currently has one profession performing optimally where as another is crippled until a particular perk/nano/etc is unlocked, making the entire profession "level locked" for quality, which just stinks for everyone.

Judging from what you replied with I can only assume we have a misunderstanding because I am not suggesting what you think I am I think..

[Mekh]

I can only support this suggestion, or something similar...

[Aethyrguard]

Ok I updated the OP to reflect the idea that came to me after reading you all's feedback and posted the two suggestions that lead to my idea as part of the OP with it.

I really think this would help on many topics for many professions and create a ton of new twinking options two play with in the future.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

yup, this is the only way to make perks balance, while offering end game incentive at the same time.

The only change I would perhaps consider is that for each perk action, there is a subsequent buffer perk, so, for example, cleave is on perk 1, then perk 2 is a damage multiplier for that perk.

Then perk 3 is transfix, and perk 4 is damage multiplier for transfix AND cleave.

then perk 5 is pain lance, and perk 6 is a damage multiplier for the three actions.. etc.

In this way, there could still be absolute checks on how MANY damage perks would be available at a given level.

It would also spread the perks out slightly so that the perk distribution isn't lopsided. And, reasonable perks could still open at lower levels, providing much needed damage/evades/healing.

In essense, though, this perk restructuring would greatly speed up when the game becomes perk freindly. Considering there are 200 levels where half the total perks are able to be distributed, and 20 levels where the remaining HALF the perks are distributed, there is a vastly lopsided distribution in what becomes available.

For several profs, there are hugely important perks which constitute large parts of the toolset which don't open until near endgame (keeper, shade, anyone?), this could easily be rectified by providing significantly more actions in the first 20 perks, (as Aethyrguard has proposed), and adding significantly more SKILL and EFFICIENCY bonuses, in the final 20 perks, but far fewer actions.

MEGABUMP for this thread. And, kudos on excellent integration of several ideas into a conglomeration providing an umbrella solution.

[Aethyrguard]

yup, this is the only way to make perks balance, while offering end game incentive at the same time.

The only change I would perhaps consider is that for each perk action, there is a subsequent buffer perk, so, for example, cleave is on perk 1, then perk 2 is a damage multiplier for that perk.... MEGABUMP for this thread. And, kudos on excellent integration of several ideas into a conglomeration providing an umbrella solution.

Thanks for the input but I have to disagree with the spacing of perks out in levels because that recreates the exact problem I am trying to solve of having a majority of the tool sets being so level locked.

Instead making it so that by 100 you have a mini form of a complete toolset and by 60 you have the makings of one in one of two ways, spending as many points in to a few lines as possible or spreading them out for more options at lessened efficiency. In the end it is all about personal preference, choices, options and twinking.

[rustinel]

How perks should work

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Thanks for the input but I have to disagree with the spacing of perks out in levels because that recreates the exact problem I am trying to solve of having a majority of the tool sets being so level locked.

Instead making it so that by 100 you have a mini form of a complete toolset and by 60 you have the makings of one in one of two ways, spending as many points in to a few lines as possible or spreading them out for more options at lessened efficiency. In the end it is all about personal preference, choices, options and twinking.

good reasoning. I concur.

[mr_road]

if the perk actions where to be available a lot sooner in the perk chain and then scale with weapon skill and number of perks invested, you could also reduce the number of perk actions that become available.

the first perk action in a line is generally pretty weak (damage) wise by the time the toon gets to level 220. this way all the perks are useful all the way through.

[Hacre]

As it should be in most cases.

No 201-217 should be hoping to compare to a 220 in any respect.

You're right. CS should be moved to level 219, or even 220.

Or, you could actually engage your brain and start making sense. Heavily perk reliant professions (Keepers, Shades) suck nut at TL5 because of this silly scaling.

Or, instead, make it so that certain perk actions open up once you reach a certain attack rating. So for, say, Keepers and Enfos, Slice and Dice appears once you break oh I don't know, 1500 AR (or insert a high TL5 attack rating for Enfos/Keepers here). Bear in mind before people /wrists about slice and dice that it's getting nerfed.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

So for, say, Keepers and Enfos, Slice and Dice appears once you break oh I don't know, 1500 AR (or insert a high TL5 attack rating for Enfos/Keepers here). Bear in mind before people /wrists about slice and dice that it's getting nerfed.

Totally off track, off the standard track, and totally out of left field, and what an interesting Idea: like having duel requisites for a perk:

"To perk this you must have at least 1500 skill in 2he and be level 150 or higher."

The only obvious problem I see here is the newbies who are stuck with crap gear and can't perk it until 190... but, it's not like they be competitive fo rthe purpose we're talking about.

Actually, this woud perpetuate inequalities rather than lessening them, for example, if the same concept was applied to acrobat, then perk 3 might not open up until say (1500 evades) were met, as a check, which would mean some very unhappy not-yet-twinked leveling toons for a few levels.

We have to strive to bring more balance to those who are untwinked, and remove unecessary power from those who are twinked.

[Hacre]

Totally off track, off the standard track, and totally out of left field, and what an interesting Idea: like having duel requisites for a perk:

"To perk this you must have at least 1500 skill in 2he and be level 150 or higher."

The only obvious problem I see here is the newbies who are stuck with crap gear and can't perk it until 190... but, it's not like they be competitive fo rthe purpose we're talking about.

Actually, this woud perpetuate inequalities rather than lessening them, for example, if the same concept was applied to acrobat, then perk 3 might not open up until say (1500 evades) were met, as a check, which would mean some very unhappy not-yet-twinked leveling toons for a few levels.

We have to strive to bring more balance to those who are untwinked, and remove unecessary power from those who are twinked.

No. No no no no no.

Twinking and more importantly, putting a lot of effort into twinking, should reveal results.

So say if a maxed out twinked hard omg uber setup Enfo can get 1499 AR (that's AMS not 2he skill) and a Keeper with the same uber hard effort can get 1510AR then it makes sense to open up a nice perk, say PL or SnD, at 1500 AR.

If a random idiot can't perk it until 190, to be quite honest I don't really care. Nor do I care about anyone else who can't perk something at level 150 without effort into their toon otherwise they wait until 190, 200, 205 or even friggin 220.

Proper twinking requires effort and effort in a game should always, ALWAYS, = reward.

So, spend billions of credits and hours tweaking the crap out of your AR? Congrats, at level 170 you get SnD, everyone else waits until 190+. Spend billions and hours of twinking to hit 1000 evades+aad? Congrats you get Dance of Fools before level 140. (Or 150 or 170 or whatever the number should reasonably be).

Your argument about having more balance between gimps and twinks is akin to asking for any idiot to be able to solo Aztur at level 60 just because they're level 60, or any idiot to solo all of Foremans just because they're level 100. It doesn't and shouldn't work that way.

It's easy to implement. Unlock SnD at 1500 AR (or something reasonably high for TL5 twinks) -or- level 204, whichever occurs first. It's that simple.

[Aethyrguard]

No. No no no no no... Twinking and more importantly, putting a lot of effort into twinking, should reveal results... Proper twinking requires effort and effort in a game should always, ALWAYS, = reward...

Your argument about having more balance between gimps and twinks is akin to asking for any idiot to be able to solo Aztur at level 60 just because they're level 60, or any idiot to solo all of Foremans just because they're level 100. It doesn't and shouldn't work that way.

Mind you Hacre is quite strong worded in his post I have to agree with the sentiment of it, however I am not sure about what he posted in his first one. The goal for this suggestion is not making it easier for gimps to get kills. It was making it easier for all professions regardless of level have a chance at performing well, with a near full version of their toolset, when they put effort in to their characters and thought in to their setups.

I think going with a % scaling "bonus" concept based on IP spent in an associated skill/stat allows for several factors to be considered. Yes twinking effects the final outcome Effort == reward. Every profession can continue to add new actions to their hotbar all the way to 220. Theoretically they will be using builds we never thought possible because the actions that have historically required too heavy of perk spending for too little effect leaves them as a nice thought but not enough to change and use over something in use now. This idea addresses all future balance issues as a platform of consistency.

Say for example that they add some new items to the game. They can see that yes they added 1-5% more HP on average to every player over the last iteration of an upgraded form of armor, however, perks will benefit more directly from the bonuses coming from the stats on their gear and the associated skills. Such as increasing the amount of damage the reaver line does as a whole based on how much 2hE the player has.

If Funcom feels something is over/under-powered instead of having to go back and change perk code they can just modify the stats on a new bit of upgraded gear designed around this newly balanced content (you know it has to be coming if they are changing so much gear options are possibly going to change too).

This is addressing many different issues at once with a whole horde of solutions in a nice little package.