Balanced ways to reduce Enforcer and Soldier mass pvp/pvm surviviability?

[Pafpuf]

Even when I dueled with my Keeper, I didn't have a huge problem with kiting...

Because you had a 25m range sword!!1

[Gatester]

Dude im not even talking about duels or 1v1 combat...Cause thats just silly...Its just pressing buttons in order and agent is dead...numavezi vs artani (one of the best agent for sure) died in 10 sec of duel cause its simply nothing to be done with nano init debuffs and stuns and sick dmg enfs have atm with 1hb/1he setups...So it was fight top enf vs top agent and it end up in 10 sec...Yea thats fair and balanced...

Agents can beat enforcers in duels but enfs with setups strong vs casting profs are also working with an advantage.

If your agent is not setup to be a perfect match vs an enforcer then you have a good chance of losing.

Soldier survivability in PvP is good for a limited duration if there are no nemesis profs around. If there are nemesis profs or they're in AMS recharge, most of the time they're easy meat.

Soldier PvM survivability does not need a nerf. Prior to LE, soldiers needed to become best friends with a doctor if they ever wanted to kill anything worth killing - unlike a host of other profs that could simply solo. This has been rectified to a large extent, and should remain so. The only thing I would change is make the max attainable reflect by players 99%.

You really need to stop making soldier "suggestions" when you have no idea about how the prof works.

I know what soldiers can tank, and I know what soldiers have been capable of soloing because they can AMS, kite, AMS. There is also a reason I added "what changes could be made to other profs". IMHO enforcers and soldiers have it far too easy tanking, especially when they are able to work with a single doctor and farm several raids for profit and leave out much of the supporting profession of this game.

Others, however, may not agree and that is why I posed the questions in the format that I did. The purpose of this thread, and most my threads be it through deception or honesty, is to understand the thoughts and desires of the playerbase. I am, for the most part, happy with much of what I am seeing even if they are disagreements. Once you have a good understanding of what everyone desires, then and only then, can you begin perfecting the content of AO.

[Gatester]

Because you had a 25m range sword!!1

40m (%scale and weapon range increase can increase melee wep range)

[Neccoz]

Except it's a soft cap. There is a point to going over the soft cap as you still gain benefits from added runspeed (you've never had 2.5-2.6k RS and still had a Fixer/Enforcer run faster than you?), however the improvement past the softcap is much smaller per point of RS.

Actually, no. I did a test with an enf with gsf though, for the full duration of rage, both running straight forward, there was absolutely no noticable difference, so shrug. 3,3k or 2,4k...

[Hacre]

Actually, no. I did a test with an enf with gsf though, for the full duration of rage, both running straight forward, there was absolutely no noticable difference, so shrug. 3,3k or 2,4k...

Perception, especially when you're going in with an already biased opinion, is by no means a measure, accurate or otherwise.

Like I said. Toon 1 with ~2500 runspeed and Toon 2 with 3k+. Watch toon with 3k+ outrun you.

I've had GSF, Wolf and the +30 generic buff on my NT, pushing me to 3.1k RS. I've still had Fixers get away from me. Of course they didn't out accelerate me with a flash and a cartoon like poof into the distance, but they were still faster.

[Pafpuf]

Actually, no. I did a test with an enf with gsf though, for the full duration of rage, both running straight forward, there was absolutely no noticable difference, so shrug. 3,3k or 2,4k...

How can you expect do accomplish anything in this game when you can't even run correctly

[Neccoz]

Perception, especially when you're going in with an already biased opinion, is by no means a measure, accurate or otherwise.

Like I said. Toon 1 with ~2500 runspeed and Toon 2 with 3k+. Watch toon with 3k+ outrun you.

I've had GSF, Wolf and the +30 generic buff on my NT, pushing me to 3.1k RS. I've still had Fixers get away from me. Of course they didn't out accelerate me with a flash and a cartoon like poof into the distance, but they were still faster.

What didn't you understand in "Noticable" (Not sure it's spelled correctly, but I'm certain you know what I/It means)?

If you can't notice a difference, in 42 seconds (duration of rage), with over 1k RS difference, whether it still scales is irrelevant, in a mass pvp environment, (which is what we're talking about, remember?) 42 seconds is most of the time if not ALWAYS enough time to run to your target. If it runs away from you when you have 2400 RS before you get in reach, having 3600 won't change that. Unless you're at less than 1m behind your target, then you MIGHT catch him before rage ends.

In any case, let's say in a full rage duration, you win TWO seconds (totally utopic, you don't get even close to that much, and when you need to recast it, you'll lose around one second anyway) on your oponent, is it worth giving up 29k HP? I personally don't think so.

[Moonbolt]

u are completly wrong about the runspeed soft cap stuff.
i notice a big difference when running with 4k runspeed and 2500 runspeed

[Hacre]

What didn't you understand in "Noticable" (Not sure it's spelled correctly, but I'm certain you know what I/It means)?

If you can't notice a difference, in 42 seconds (duration of rage), with over 1k RS difference, whether it still scales is irrelevant, in a mass pvp environment, (which is what we're talking about, remember?) 42 seconds is most of the time if not ALWAYS enough time to run to your target. If it runs away from you when you have 2400 RS before you get in reach, having 3600 won't change that. Unless you're at less than 1m behind your target, then you MIGHT catch him before rage ends.

It is a completely noticable difference, when what I'm trying to kill, can get away.

I've left you alone with the Melee getting Observant based melee armour thread because your argument fails on its own and I can't be bothered. Do you have to be a stickler when you're obviously utterly wrong here as well?

Not to mention that if I, as a 40m ranged NT notices if someone can outrun me past your supposed "don't notice cap", a melee toon is going to notice even more, even how much closer they need to get?

Either something makes a difference, or it doesn't. Having more runspeed than 2.4k makes a difference, end of.

In fact you're so wrong, that even Moonbolt and I agree. That's how completely wrong you are, given that the two of us can't even agree on what type of blue the sky actually is, usually.

(Sup Moonbolt )

[Neccoz]

u are completly wrong about the runspeed soft cap stuff.
i notice a big difference when running with 4k runspeed and 2500 runspeed

Give me wolf and FM, that'd put me around 2,5k RS. Get your 4k RS up. Get to one side of PW, and run as fast as possble, without using any obstacle, and I am ready to bet whatever you want that the difference is so slight that I'll kill you before you can get even close to out of range. And yes, you can straffe run.

[DrLithvium]

I think Enforcers need a weakspot. And that weakspot should be a low nr. A high resistance to counter advanced nanoprograms does not fit in a stupid meatshield prof description.

Soldier has some weakspots allready. And the ability for any prof to take out their opponent 1 on 1 in 5seconds should be removed. Even if youre a gimp. Getting killed in 5 seconds wont make you interested in pvp. Hopefully as nerf will get the job done.

[Questra]

I think Enforcers need a weakspot. And that weakspot should be a low nr. A high resistance to counter advanced nanoprograms does not fit in a stupid meatshield prof description.

Soldier has some weakspots allready. And the ability for any prof to take out their opponent 1 on 1 in 5seconds should be removed. Even if youre a gimp. Getting killed in 5 seconds wont make you interested in pvp. Hopefully as nerf will get the job done.

You might be right about the NR thing, but I still think enfs should have high NR for at least a short time. Here's an idea...

Hellish Rage Duration: 42 seconds

Self Modify All damage shields 120
Self Modify All inits 500
Self Modify Run speed 1200
Self Modify Nano resist -1200

Casting Hellish Rage would also load this program into the enf's NCU

Get Out of Hell Duration: 6 seconds

Self Modify Nano resist 2400

So rage would initially increase the enf's NR by 1200, but after 6s would lower it by 1200 for the remaining 36s. This way, if an enf wishes to maintain huge amounts of NR, he or she must Rage every 6 seconds at the expense of every other cast of Layers.

Applying this to all enf rages would really balance enfs at lower tls too, where enfs have the highest HP, NR, AR, and defense of any profession, and can spam Rage/layers/mongo without the worry of burning their nanopool dry.

At low tls, the nanocost of constantly spamming rage would stop an enf from having perma 1.5-2k NR at tl3-4. If tl7 enfs could maintain that and still cast a decent amount of layers, and I don't know if that would be the case, the duration of the temp NR buff could be lowered at higher tls, to force the enf to choose between layers (physical defense) and NR (metaphysical defense).

As for hotswaps going away, some profs will still have the ability to kill an enemy 1v1 in 5 seconds, but they'll mainly just be melee profs after the ranged specials nerf. The question is, are you prepared to no longer be able to instantly heal off that damage every few seconds?

How will it work, when will someone be able to OD doctor heals? Will it be a gradual thing, where docs are unable to outheal chunks of damage? Will that make a doc killable while still giving him or her enough time to survive?

Is it possible to have a system where a doc can still be killed without a hotswap alpha, but can easily last more than 20-30s... without also being able to last 20-30 minutes or even hours?

This "heal nerf" is a mystery. Personally I have no idea how they're going to manage it and I suspect that's why we've heard nothing substantial about it so far.

[DrLithvium]

Not a bad idea for a nano. Still the enf will be able to maintain high dmg and defenses up. A cooldown on nano for 20-25 seconds should also be included. Remember, this will be pretty much the only weakspot of the enf.

I suspect(and hope) that the healnerf will have to mean lots of other changes to doc prof. Like the ability to full def and atleast give us a chance to nr stuff and a lower nr check on dots and malp. moving us away from as usage.

[Hacre]

I suspect(and hope) that the healnerf will have to mean lots of other changes to doc prof. Like the ability to full def and atleast give us a chance to nr stuff and a lower nr check on dots and malp. moving us away from as usage.

How about you team with an NT? There's enough of us around.

I don't remember Florence Nightingale running around, packing an Uzi and screaming "DAI MUTHAFRIGGER!" while unloading tasty death treats into the enemy with the same effectiveness as a front line twitchy trigger man.

If everyone is totally self sufficient, there's no need for teaming. I like teaming and I like the extra challenge soloing gives. Solo PvP doesn't need to be made easier. Let other professions around you, enable you. You'd be surprised what Doc+1 can accomplish, especially when the +1 is a considerate NT that lands CB before anything else to allow his Doc or Trader team mate to land things.

[Moonbolt]

Theron i known u for ages and i hope u believe me on this.. no profession in this game suffers so hard from special attacks as enforcers do.
that is our current weak spot.

and yeah i agree with u on this theron:

for a doc to land malpractise and UBT can be a real pain, for a NT/trader/MP tho its not that much of a fuzz.
traders will be pre drained and their first drain has 95% check wich renders us unable to refresh the rage again when it runs out.

NTs have restrain enthusiasm that actually cancles the rage from my NCU and renders me unable to cast rage again for another 20 sec or so add CB to that and im just as defenceless as anyone else to casters.
and coronet of frost will make us unable to refresh Mongo aswell.
not liek any of those realy are needed when the NT has CB and IU.

MPs usually land dominate biomet on me pretty easy and then im unable to cast basically all of my nanos aswell and thereof rendered pretty useless with a cuople of seconds of kiting since my challanger will run out and my AR decrease enough to be unable to perk even a bow MP.

as i have said in different threads here in the balance forums..
u wanna beat an enf? go buy the generic nano bio.met incompetence. it should render most enfs unable to use the Imongo cause we are so close to the actaual nano cap we can get unless we start trading of defencive tools to casting it.

enforcers has alot more problems then u guys seem to think.
the few enforcers actually pvping nowadays atleast on RK 1 has very good gear and still can be killed fairly easy by most professions that knows how to.

ofcourse enfs can kill most profs fairly easy aswell if we get teh start on them due to our massive alpha.

[sultryvoltron]

Solo PvP doesn't need to be made easier.

You're right. It needs to be made a hell of alot harder, damn near suicide even.

[Moonbolt]

it more or less can be complete suicide..
we were a team of soldier enf enf that ran a BS for fun earlier today ..
clanners ran with team of doc, trader, crat, engie, NT, NT.
i can promise u our team of 2 enfs and 1 soldier didnt manage to kill anyone in that team.. or even last longer then a couple of seconds.

[Kinkst44h]

Give me wolf and FM, that'd put me around 2,5k RS. Get your 4k RS up. Get to one side of PW, and run as fast as possble, without using any obstacle, and I am ready to bet whatever you want that the difference is so slight that I'll kill you before you can get even close to out of range. And yes, you can straffe run.

Fyi
Strafe running allows you to evade the runspeed cap.

Why? (There was a detailed thread done awhile back, but I can't find it now. It is there but here's my brief summary)

You can run 15m/s in any direction. This is the total speed cap. Running in a straight line only, you hit this speed at 2500 RS.

For what its worth, running backwards I believe is 1/2 runspeed, and running sideways (strafing) Is 1/4.

In order to get the 15m/sec while only strafing, you need 10K runspeed or so. So, runspeed over 2500 does have an effect when strafe running, and all good PVPers will do this, which is why you see what people see in game.

So yes, you will lose your bet with 2500 RS vs someone with 4K.

[sultryvoltron]

it more or less can be complete suicide..
we were a team of soldier enf enf that ran a BS for fun earlier today ..
clanners ran with team of doc, trader, crat, engie, NT, NT.
i can promise u our team of 2 enfs and 1 soldier didnt manage to kill anyone in that team.. or even last longer then a couple of seconds.

But you don't lose or gain anything from teaming currently, other than you die to a zerg of damage whores. If FunCom can fix that, we'd be on to a fun and balanced PvP system.

And no, I don't mean that faux-team-necessity that Means spouted off in the perk document about "teaming will be important because XXXX perk will do YYYYY more damage if perk ZZZZZ from profession AAAAA is running."

Teaming should make people powerful. I believe it was Gatester that suggested a team Damage-To-Enf nano. That is such a perfect suggestion it should be implemented without any hesitation from FC. And then FC should work on doing something like that for every profession, and balance the game around not making one perfect winning combo of "get these 6 professions and roll through PvP like nasc hecks."

[Moonbolt]

yes it would be a very kool thing if a % of the dmg to team members were transfered to the enf.
enfs still need some way to mitigate dmg except from hughe health tho since it over and over and over has been confirmed that the more HP u have the worse it is.
in fact the only way that more HP could be a benefit is if we have above 50000 health cause of the 14550 cap on FA.
and as have been stated several times in this post.. the 2500 RS snare isnt gonna let us use the +29k ess in most situations.