Balanced ways to reduce Enforcer and Soldier mass pvp/pvm surviviability?

[MassDebater]

i really dont want my enfo to be turned into a mole

Ill call you diglet

http://chungalex.com/wp-content/uplo...glet-39542.jpg

[Gatester]

There is a way you could have team vs team pvp in raid situations. The teams would be locked together in a set postition, while a single player is controlling the movements of the entire team (read tower wars only). This would allow more dynamic use of the tanks, as a soldier or enforcer (maybe keeper) could be set to be the frontline of the group, and you would be forced to attack them until you could move on to the support.

I think this would be kinda crappy however I am sure there would be a nice style of mass pvp drawn out of this or a similar style.



I also wanted to see a shared damage style nano, where everyone in the enforcers team would contribute half the damage they take directly to the enforcer. However, I see teams of enforcers or support in those teams being too hard to kill as well.


Main thing is it would slow down mass pvp and make it more tactics based, but i do not know if that is a good thing or not. Is the zerg style mass pvp our best option, or would a more strategic style be best or even possible for AO?

[Hacre]

There is a way you could have team vs team pvp in raid situations. The teams would be locked together in a set postition, while a single player is controlling the movements of the entire team (read tower wars only). This would allow more dynamic use of the tanks, as a soldier or enforcer (maybe keeper) could be set to be the frontline of the group, and you would be forced to attack them until you could move on to the support.

I think this would be kinda crappy however I am sure there would be a nice style of mass pvp drawn out of this or a similar style.



I also wanted to see a shared damage style nano, where everyone in the enforcers team would contribute half the damage they take directly to the enforcer. However, I see teams of enforcers or support in those teams being too hard to kill as well.


Main thing is it would slow down mass pvp and make it more tactics based, but i do not know if that is a good thing or not. Is the zerg style mass pvp our best option, or would a more strategic style be best or even possible for AO?

I'd like to see something similar to this added to AO, from playing Savage 2. Each side's "leader" has a different interface and doesn't actively participate in the battlefield. Instead they can see the battle field in an RTS type view, from there they could, say, build APTs/AVTs in strategic positions and assign players to them, warp members of their force to different areas, have the ability to heal/short term buff (speed, evades, etc) and be able to cast debuffs on the opposite side (nothing major, short snares/DoTs/init debuffs) etc. This while being able to communicate with their own side, obviously.

[Daiken]

someone commented on good "standing power" imo id gladly sacrefise RS for defence as soldiers shouldnt be running ayway anyways

[sultryvoltron]

There is a way you could have team vs team pvp in raid situations. The teams would be locked together in a set postition, while a single player is controlling the movements of the entire team (read tower wars only). This would allow more dynamic use of the tanks, as a soldier or enforcer (maybe keeper) could be set to be the frontline of the group, and you would be forced to attack them until you could move on to the support.

I think this would be kinda crappy however I am sure there would be a nice style of mass pvp drawn out of this or a similar style.



I also wanted to see a shared damage style nano, where everyone in the enforcers team would contribute half the damage they take directly to the enforcer. However, I see teams of enforcers or support in those teams being too hard to kill as well.


Main thing is it would slow down mass pvp and make it more tactics based, but i do not know if that is a good thing or not. Is the zerg style mass pvp our best option, or would a more strategic style be best or even possible for AO?

Sounds pretty cool in my opinion. I especially like the Damage-To-Enf suggestion. It would be awesome for FC to utilize more tools like this, give every profession a way to benefit a team beyond some buffs.

[MyGift]

Imo soliders are ok, but enfs.............................................. ..... Running around with 3k+ NR 3k def mongo+hd over 1k hot,coon,bior,apsorbs,toss them rrfe and you'll need a raid force to take one down. atm profession with best defense in game for sure. Now i can understand that, they are made to be tough and hard to kill, they are main tanks in the game after all. But are they made to have over 3k ar and one of the best alphas in the game(one of rare professions that can kill docs atm) sa,dimach,brawle,fast attack(all melee specials) 50% check on 1hb perks+1he perks...

So profession with best def in game and offensive power to take down everything pretty easy.


So no i don't think they should get nerfed hp or Heals or anything but something rly should be done about their offense...

[Moonbolt]

Imo soliders are ok, but enfs.............................................. ..... Running around with 3k+ NR 3k def mongo+hd over 1k hot,coon,bior,apsorbs,toss them rrfe and you'll need a raid force to take one down. atm profession with best defense in game for sure. Now i can understand that, they are made to be tough and hard to kill, they are main tanks in the game after all. But are they made to have over 3k ar and one of the best alphas in the game(one of rare professions that can kill docs atm) sa,dimach,brawle,fast attack(all melee specials) 50% check on 1hb perks+1he perks...

So profession with best def in game and offensive power to take down everything pretty easy.


So no i don't think they should get nerfed hp or Heals or anything but something rly should be done about their offense...

i think ur playing another game tbh.

[MyGift]

i think ur playing another game tbh.

Yea its called "AO with agent" who get killed in 2 sec if attacked by 2 decent players. Game where i get killed in 2 sec if get UBTed or debuffed( you know those things that never land on u? cause you got 1 nano that gives u 800 nr... )

And if you think im talking about another game, you tell me what profession in AO can tank more ppl or can survive longer then enf??

Or tell which profession got 2-3 stuns in their alpha, ubt with interupt modifier that makes u unable to heal or cast nanos to save urself, sick dmg perks, sa brawle fast attack dimach and 3k+ ar?

Im playing right game its just ur not playing ur enf right.

[sultryvoltron]

( you know those things that never land on u? cause you got 1 nano that gives u 800 nr... )

The new rage from APF is +1200 NR.

[MyGift]

The new rage from APF is +1200 NR.

Oh sry, my bad...poor enfs.

[Moonbolt]

u claiming enforcers to be the profession with the best defence in the game is just silly.
i can agree with u that enforcers are one of the absolute strongest alpha professions and ive made a hughe post about that on the enforcer forums that i would like to see a hughe change to enforcers where we would loose our massiev alpha and instead build up dmg over time while i want a great boost to our defencive skills aswell.

enforcers are tanks that is supposed to withstand dmg.
HP as it works in PvP is over a certain point just a dissadventage due to specials only capping harder, but yes we are less vulnerable to regular hits from other players.
the absorbs got a major nerf thnx to low HP NTs eploiting game mechanics to be invulnerable in pvp, so now layers is calculated before the 40% cap, wich means i can still get hit for 10000+4550 dmg by 1 FA even tho the cap on me should be 9kish.
the second absorb we got is 5k on a 5 min timer wich means i can still get capped from specials thru that absorb.
the HoTs u mention have a 5 min recharge and only heals up 1 third of my health, or if u wanna compare..... 1 FA.
the layer proc we cant use at all since it cancels our bio coon on proc.
Imongo and Hellish rage is the only 2 real good defences we have and the Imongo HoT is not nearly enough to actually matter compared to 11 sec AS and FA wich basically all professions is running around with nowadays.
btw if u think the Imongo HoT is to much healing for u.. run to the basic store and buy a biomet incompetence.
most enfrocers should be living very close on the edge of casting the Imongo that -20 BM would prolly render them unable to cast it.
Hellish Rage can be cancled and locked out by the profession we need it against most and relying on NR from a proc that needs u to hit the target before it goes off makes it pure luck based, the only time i actually use the rage procs is in duels.

the 3k+ AR u are mentioning isnt realy any help to a profession that deals the majority of their dmg thru perks, like all mellee do since SA has 40 sec cap instead of 11 like FA and AS.

but hey.. im not complaining,, im having great fun in pvp with my enf.
and i get alot of kills etc.
but claiming that enforcers ahs the best defence in the game is a completly false statement.

[sultryvoltron]

That's clearly a problem with the PvP damage cap system. Enfs have been throws a ton of defense to make up for the huge, hard to heal up specials.

Like Hacre says regularly, more HP should NEVER be a bad thing in PvP.

[Gatester]

So profession with best def in game and offensive power to take down everything pretty easy.

Good stuff. If you have a trouble with all enfs 1 v 1, you need to improve, if you have trouble with the best enfs, sorry someone good can kill you. An alpha is the only tool enforcers have for taking out any good player (except other enforcers ofc). What would you have enforcers use to win instead?

Without support enfs can be killed just fine, it doesn't seem like it because we have a lot of health, but that health is not getting healed up quickly. A lot of profs have much better def than us without support, enfs are just one of the best profs at running away, which is great for winning fights.

[Neccoz]

however drop the sless and boom u got 3.3k rs! i much rather run around with that then 27k extra hp which in mass pvp is more like a burden then a good thing. and cool thing is as a MA - u can sympathyse! would u take on an extra 27k hp leaving the rest of ur toolset the same?

Woot, 3,3k RS! Aww, I wish it didn't cap "around" 2,4k... What's the point of overcapping a skill? There are none. And yes, I would take 27k HP on my MA, if all the other things remained intact.

[MyGift]

Good stuff. If you have a trouble with all enfs 1 v 1, you need to improve, if you have trouble with the best enfs, sorry someone good can kill you. An alpha is the only tool enforcers have for taking out any good player (except other enforcers ofc). What would you have enforcers use to win instead?

Without support enfs can be killed just fine, it doesn't seem like it because we have a lot of health, but that health is not getting healed up quickly. A lot of profs have much better def than us without support, enfs are just one of the best profs at running away, which is great for winning fights.

Dude im not even talking about duels or 1v1 combat...Cause thats just silly...Its just pressing buttons in order and agent is dead...numavezi vs artani (one of the best agent for sure) died in 10 sec of duel cause its simply nothing to be done with nano init debuffs and stuns and sick dmg enfs have atm with 1hb/1he setups...So it was fight top enf vs top agent and it end up in 10 sec...Yea thats fair and balanced...

[Hacre]

Woot, 3,3k RS! Aww, I wish it didn't cap "around" 2,4k... What's the point of overcapping a skill? There are none. And yes, I would take 27k HP on my MA, if all the other things remained intact.

Except it's a soft cap. There is a point to going over the soft cap as you still gain benefits from added runspeed (you've never had 2.5-2.6k RS and still had a Fixer/Enforcer run faster than you?), however the improvement past the softcap is much smaller per point of RS.

Dude im not even talking about duels or 1v1 combat...Cause thats just silly...Its just pressing buttons in order and agent is dead...numavezi vs artani (one of the best agent for sure) died in 10 sec of duel cause its simply nothing to be done with nano init debuffs and stuns and sick dmg enfs have atm with 1hb/1he setups...So it was fight top enf vs top agent and it end up in 10 sec...Yea thats fair and balanced...

Balance doesn't necessarily mean you can kill everyone while everyone can kill you. Come on man, Enforcers are huge nasty hulking damage machines that can soak up perk alphas, why do you think a tiny Agent assassin guy can stand toe to toe? You're ranged for a reason you should be using that to your advantage.

You can't say you're not talking about 1v1 combat or duels, then give an example of a 1v1 fight between Enforcer and Agent.

Example. I recently took out a Ranged Adventurer with my NT in 1v1 PvP. It took me a couple of tries and switching equipment/tactics as I'm not used to the offense Ranged Advies now have. I ended up winning by using as much of my toolset as I could, -including- rooting and getting the hell away while my NBG was recharging and the only dent I'd made in the Advy was his cocoon was wasted. Once I'd built back enough nano and hp I went back and finished the job, using my full range to my advantage.

Or I could have come here and complained in an NT thread that I can't go toe to toe with Ranged Advies, a profession with more HP and infinitely more healing than I have, fix please.

Sometimes you're just not meant to go toe to toe.

[MyGift]

Balance doesn't necessarily mean you can kill everyone while everyone can kill you. Come on man, Enforcers are huge nasty hulking damage machines that can soak up perk alphas, why do you think a tiny Agent assassin guy can stand toe to toe? You're ranged for a reason you should be using that to your advantage..

Well then agent in ruse 4 dont stand a chance vs anyone :P:P

And thats exactly what "Balance" means...When anyone can kill anything if he got skill.

Seriously if we gonna follow that logic agent with titles assassin/master assasin/finalizer dose that mean i can "assassinate" poor doctor? or an eng? and still we get owned by engis pretty easy...so how eng or doc can kill skillful assassin who is made only for one thing, assassination...

But i do agree with u mate, agent shouldn't stand toe to toe with beast like enf...but in AO kiting is simply unfair with all that lag/sync... so if kiting its lame cause u proly wont touch me entire duel if standing toe to toe ill get killed in 10 sec.

[Berinda]

Soldier survivability in PvP is good for a limited duration if there are no nemesis profs around. If there are nemesis profs or they're in AMS recharge, most of the time they're easy meat.

Soldier PvM survivability does not need a nerf. Prior to LE, soldiers needed to become best friends with a doctor if they ever wanted to kill anything worth killing - unlike a host of other profs that could simply solo. This has been rectified to a large extent, and should remain so. The only thing I would change is make the max attainable reflect by players 99%.

You really need to stop making soldier "suggestions" when you have no idea about how the prof works.

[Pafpuf]

Woot, 3,3k RS! Aww, I wish it didn't cap "around" 2,4k... What's the point of overcapping a skill? There are none. And yes, I would take 27k HP on my MA, if all the other things remained intact.

Runspeed isn't capped at 2.4k it just starts scaling more slowly. Like nano init for example.

[Hacre]

Well then agent in ruse 4 dont stand a chance vs anyone :P:P

And thats exactly what "Balance" means...When anyone can kill anything if he got skill.

Seriously if we gonna follow that logic agent with titles assassin/master assasin/finalizer dose that mean i can "assassinate" poor doctor? or an eng? and still we get owned by engis pretty easy...so how eng or doc can kill skillful assassin who is made only for one thing, assassination...

But i do agree with u mate, agent shouldn't stand toe to toe with beast like enf...but in AO kiting is simply unfair with all that lag/sync... so if kiting its lame cause u proly wont touch me entire duel if standing toe to toe ill get killed in 10 sec.

Even when I dueled with my Keeper, I didn't have a huge problem with kiting. Annoying yes, but I can't complain about people using their toolset to its fullest.

This is one of the reasons why I think FC aren't overly interested in balancing for dueling situations. Expecting someone like an Agent to stand still and get wtfpwned in the interests of "fairness" is kinda stupid.

I also think that Agents should have the power, from sneak, if their timing is right, to wtfpwn someone who doesn't react quickly and if they do react quickly the Agent should have some opportunity to get away, NOT stand there tanking damage while CHing. Agents should have the sort of HP that NTs have, but then they should also have a similar offensive power. The biggest reason behind them not still having that ability vs a lot of professions is the CH crutch. I'm no Agent expert, so I can't offer exactly -how- but that crutch should be made unattractive in the face of some real killing power. Especially with an AS nerf inc.